Q&A – What brought you to SAL 12-Step and what are some of the blessings of the program?

Narrator: This is Pathway to Recovery, an SA Lifeline Foundation podcast featuring hosts Tara McCausland, who is the SA Lifeline Executive Director, and Justin B., a sex addict living in long-term recovery. We have conversations with experts and individuals who understand the pathway to healing from sexual addiction and betrayal trauma because we believe that recovering individuals leads to the healing of families. Welcome to the Pathway to Recovery podcast.

Tara McCausland: I am your host, Tara McCausland, and this is a special Q&A. I have 2 wonderful guests on, both leaders in our SAL 12-step program, Kahi and Andrew, and you will have an opportunity to hear from them separately. in longer episodes, but I thought it would be a great opportunity to have them on together and ask them a couple of questions about their experience working SAL 12-step. And so first off, thank you, Andrew and Kahi, for being awesome, for taking your hard experiences and blessing the lives of many others.

Andrew: Thank you, Terri. And thank you for having me.

Kahi: Same. Thank you. It blesses my life as well.

Tara McCausland: And so to start, I wanted to ask the question, what originally brought you to SAL 12-step? And you, I, this is a, a short Q&A, so we won't have a lot of time for detail, but maybe start us off, Kahi, and give us some idea of what brought you to SAL 12-step and maybe how things have shifted over the years for you.

Kahi: I have had a lot of time to think about this because we ask this question in our 12-step meetings every week. Will someone share what brought them here and why they keep coming back. And for me, it's, it's pretty simple. When I first started going to 12-step meetings, I had just learned of my husband's addiction and we were close to being married for 10 years and I was completely lost and broken. I felt like I could barely breathe living my life out in my day-to-day world.

And I remember going to my first 12-step meeting and sitting in there and seeing these women who, various ages, various stages of life, but they were laughing and smiling and like hugging each other. And I just thought, I have no idea what this is. It was a very foreign place for me because of the trauma. Mm-hmm. and confusion I was in. But I, I remember after that very first meeting just thinking, I don't know what they have, but I need it and I want it if I'm going to be able to survive.

And at that point I wasn't even thinking about surviving in my marriage. I was just thinking about like surviving, period. Ooh. And I remember leaving that meeting and then feeling like I held my breath all week. Until I got back to the meeting and then I could finally like, okay, okay, I'm in a safe place. And I did that for a long time. And as I heard these women share their strength, hope, and experience, I would hear something and I would think, I don't think that's true.

Like, there's hope, there's healing. You can, you know, move on from this. And not necessarily move on, but you can heal. And I would think, I don't know if that's true, but I do trust these women. And so I'm just gonna keep coming and putting one foot in front of the other. Um, that mentality has served me well over the years because there is so much to learn in this arena. And so that is why I initially started going.

And that is still why I keep going back because I continue to learn and I peel the layers of my onion off, you know? And every year I think, oh, I see one more thing that I thought was totally fine behavior in the past or a totally fine way of thinking. But now as I'm changing, I'm recognizing, oh, I don't really want that to be a part of my world anymore. And, or I do want this to be a part of my world and, and being in 12 steps.

with other women has really been the biggest piece of recovery that has been long-lasting and most impactful.

Tara McCausland: Thank you, Kahi. And maybe I can ask a, a pointed follow-up question. So when you originally walked into SAL 12-step, were you thinking, I am here to really work on myself and really get myself right, or was Was there any thought of, I'm going to go in and I'm going to find all the tools to fix my husband?

Kahi: Oh, absolutely. Yeah, no, absolutely. There was, I was, I was sure that this was the place that would teach me how to fix my husband. And I also feel like I equated the happiness I was seeing in other women with the idea that their husbands were doing well, like that the women were happy in the meeting because their husbands were. Choosing recovery and their marriages were happy. I equated those 2 things together and I learned from listening to them and from experiencing myself that it, that's not the case.

That, that not necessarily the case. It could be the case, but the peace and happiness and stability comes from our higher power and then through us. Yeah. to the rest of the group often has less to do with what's going on around us. But I really, I did definitely come to 12-step expecting that I would be able to learn the tools that I needed to be able to fix my husband and my marriage, and then I would be happy is what I told myself.

Tara McCausland: Hmm. Yeah. Thank you. Well, I think that a lot, a lot of women can understand that perspective. Definitely. And we'll, we'll talk more about the blessings of the program. You kind of touched on that, but thank you for sharing how we can find peace and joy regardless of, amazingly, regardless of what our partner might choose. But Andrew, I can ask you that same question. What initially brought you into the rooms of recovery to SAL 12-step and how have things moved and shifted as you have worked your recovery over the years?

Andrew: For me, I was attending a faith-based recovery, 12-step meeting, and I got nothing out of it. It did nothing for me. We were living in Texas at the time, and I had a good friend, or one of the leaders of that program became a good personal friend of mine, and his wife became a good personal friend of Jan's. And, but the program, it was too faith-based for me. And part of that, The reason for that was the shame that we felt.

We had an occasion to fly up to Utah to help our daughter that was living here at the time with a couple of things she was working on. A friend of ours said, well, you need to meet with the, the Crochaws when you go up there. So he called, introduced us. He set up a time for us knowing our timetable of travel. And so we went. Okay. And we went down to the offices there in, in Lehi, and we met with Stephen and Rill, and they asked us some questions.

And then they both got up at the end of that and said, okay, now there's meetings going on next door. We're going to a meeting. And so Stephen actually took me by the arm and pulled me into the meeting, and that's what I needed. I was not too impressed. I, I'm not a 12-step guy at this point. It just wasn't my experience in 12-step. It doesn't work. It doesn't do anything for me. But I made the commitment because my wife, it was a way to please her.

Mm-hmm. I felt at the time, that's what she wanted me to do. I wanted to keep my, my wife, and so I'm gonna do what she wants me to do cuz she's gonna fix me. And the meetings, the, that meeting that first night, I kept an open mind and I heard a lot of good stories. And to me, they were just good stories. My experience in the past has been they were stories without a lot of meat behind them and a lot of recovery behind them.

They were, they were still living, living the lie, if I may be so bold, but I committed to continue and I, and I found on one of the online meetings, and I found connection there. I saw strength and hope out of, out of the people that, that were working the program and had recovery. And that recovery capital was strong in those first meetings that I attended. And I stayed and I, it started to click. I started to get it and, and being able to be committed.

to it. I wanted at that point, I started wanting what that person had and what that person had found. I wanted to be that person. So I kept working and I kept attending and that's what kept me here. And that's what got me to where I am today.

Tara McCausland: Thank you for sharing that. Well, I love that in both cases, Kahi, as you described, you were really struggling and that was partly what brought you there, but you also came thinking that you were going to go to a space that was going to tell you how to fix your husband, which we know now is not true, but it's very much centered on how we connect with God and how we focus on ourselves and what can we do about us, right?

Yeah. And then what brought Andrew was his wife. And in both cases, as you grew into the program, the things that brought you back weren't what originally brought you there. But what I love about hearing stories about people who have gotten courageous enough to enter those rooms, and there they have a change of heart and understanding. And it, and it does take time because entering those rooms of recovery can be very, very scary. Mm-hmm. Because typically we find ourselves in isolation and not sharing our hard and broken lives, right, with other people.

Kahi: It is a, uh, a hard thing to do to walk into those rooms because isolation, if you look at the circles models, it's, it's true for both the men and women, men in addict mode, women in trauma mode. It's the same. We isolate. And so opening up is, is really hard, but vital to recovery.

Tara McCausland: Right. Yes. As we talk often on this podcast, we recognize the great value of connection. On the healing path that we, as Kevin Skinner said last year in our 2022 conference, he said, you can, you can try and recover on your own, but it will take a lot longer. And so finding the, the companions on your journey of recovery is so helpful, but does take a lot of courage to get yourself there sometimes. So as a follow-up question then, what have been the blessings of the program?

Maybe we'll start with you, Kahi. And again, you kind of touched on this, but how have you seen a shift in yourself and maybe how is that impacting your family moving forward?

Kahi: There's so many things. How it's impacted me personally, when I first started working recovery, I feel like I was pretty lost as far as like myself, knowing myself. If somebody asked me what I wanted to eat for lunch or dinner, it would be a long time of, oh, I don't know, whatever, whatever everybody else wants, I'm fine with. You know, like I had no opinions about anything. I didn't know. I would sometimes cry and not know why I was crying.

Like somebody would say, why are you crying? And I'm like, I don't know. I'm just, I'm sad. That's why I think that's why I'm crying. Yeah. I just really was not in touch with myself. And as I worked recovery, I realized that that's because my husband was in my center or my kids were in my center. Through working 12-step and recovery, I am much more aware of myself. What am I feeling? How am I doing? What do I need?

I can answer those questions much Quicker than I used to be able to. Mm-hmm. Which sounds, might sound like a little thing, but it actually has impacted my ability to connect with other people because for so long I was connecting with other people, but it was all based on what I thought they needed or wanted instead of what I really felt like I could give, or instead of just being genuine. And I didn't realize that about myself until I started really getting clear.

And I, I believe that the reason I'm able to be more in touch with myself is because I did a lot of work initially to connect with God, my higher power. I believe as I worked to build that connection, I was better able to see myself through my higher power's eyes. without the shame and hiding that was happening because of choices I'd made or things that were, you know, done to me or anyway, because of just life in general.

By connecting with God, I feel like I'm a more whole person. And so going how that impacts my family in particular, one story, like back in I wanna say it was probably 15 or something. I had a daughter at the time and we always butted heads, like we would yell a lot. And I remember one day I was actually working through Step 4 with my sponsor at the time. And every time I work Step 4, all of my defects just come out, like they're out to play.

Just so I can see. Like everything that I need to work on. Yes. And I had a particularly loud evening with my daughter and I was yelling and screaming and I walked into the room and she was sitting in the corner just so sad, so scared. She looked so alone. She'd just gotten outta the shower, so her hair was wet and she was sitting in her pajamas and I walked in and just, it crushed me. I just thought, I am doing that to her.

Like, my behavior is crushing her. And I remember picking her up and just saying, I am going to work really hard on not yelling anymore. And I had said things like that before, but because of my working the steps, I actually had experiences by then that showed me that I could actually change. Like it was possible for me to want to make a change and then actually do it. And so I committed to her. She didn't say a word.

We just hugged for a long time and then I put her to bed. The next day I had my meeting and I sat in my meeting and at the end I shared that commitment with the group and I just said, I, I don't know exactly what I'm gonna need to do to make this stick, but I never want to see that look on her face again and know that it came because of me. If I had been doing life the way I had before, I would not have even cared.

Like, not that I didn't care about my kids, but I would've pushed that feeling of guilt away because I didn't know what to do with it before. But because I had a more solid relationship with God, I could talk myself through, you're not a bad mom. You just made a bad choice and you can make amends. You can fix it and it's gonna be okay. Just recently, my kids were talking and we, we live in a bigger house than we used to.

And so I do sometimes yell to get their attention. Mm-hmm. Like if I'm in the kitchen and I, and I yelled for my daughter and my son who's 5, he wasn't around at the time. He said, mom, don't, you don't have to yell so loud. And my daughter said, oh, she's just trying to get our attention. Mom doesn't yell. And I just was so grateful in that moment to know that I have done a lot of work to make amends, a living amends for The way that I showed up with my kids and they're, they feel it and they see it.

And, and I hope that that will allow them to be one step ahead in the parenting realm when their time comes. And that is one of the many gifts of the program for me.

Tara McCausland: Thank you, Kahi. I was wiping away a tear here. That was really tender. Well, thank you for sharing a really tender and powerful story about the power of, of the 12 steps to help us really change. So Andrew, I wanna ask that same question for you. What, what have the blessings, the gifts of the program been for you as you have really worked the program, really been applying the 12 steps?

Andrew: The biggest blessing for me has been change and healing within my family. I used to not be a very nice person with people around me. And, and my children, you know, also, you know, the same as Kahi mentioned, got the brunt of it. And, and my wife got the brunt of it because who else am I gonna unload on? I, you know, I can't unload at, at work, but you unload on those around you. And that change started as I noticed the change in others.

Yeah. That are working the program, I became softer, I became gentler, and the change just kind of naturally happened within me. I feel better about life. I feel better about my family. I'm kinder, so I'm told. Sometimes I doubt that myself, but I'm told I'm doing better. And then also the, you know, the big thing is, is of course recovery. The longer I'm in it, the less desirous I am of acting out with my addiction because the program gives me the tools that I need to overcome those triggers and that activation.

And that to me has been a very strong blessing because it helps with everything else. It helps with the change in who who I am as a person. And it helps with seeing the change in others and seeing the change in my wife as she's worked the program. And it's very noticeable, very, very noticeable. And that's a blessing for me to see that she is doing so well in the program. And then to have people tell me that Andrew, you've changed.

And, and I feel it and I, and I can express it. And then being able to give back. I love giving back. The opportunity to, to serve those and to help and to support those and share my strength. And I'm not shy about it. I, I will speak to anybody and I'll tell 'em my whole story, anybody that it can help. And, and of course my wife does the same. She tells my story. Just as much as I do, but it's a blessing.

The blessings of the program are change in me for who I am, who I truly am, and recovery and connection with people. Those are all blessings.

Tara McCausland: And I love, Andrew, that's so much of a hallmark of a man in recovery, the softness. You can, you can fake a lot of things, but you can't fake humility and kindness. From a perspective of a betrayed daughter, when I saw my father be present and humble and engage in ways he never had, I knew that he had changed. It was very different from the first 2 times he came forward.

Andrew: I may just add, you know, my daughters have been my biggest advocate from the moment of You know, discovering my, my addiction, they were always on my side and even to the point of defending me to my spouse. And, and they tell me, you know, the change in you is good enough that I don't have to defend you to mom anymore. Uh, it's easier. It, it's much easier. And that's a blessing to me to see that I've made their lives Better by changing myself.

Tara McCausland: Thank you. I love that. Well, maybe as a kind of a closing question, because we talk about how 12-step really is a spiritual program, but we all come to 12-step with a different conception of God, which might change over time through the program. So I'm curious if you want to succinctly share How has your relationship with God changed in this process as you've been working SAL 12-step? Do you, has that shifted and how has that affected you personally?

Andrew: I was my God for many, many years. I, I directed my life. I made choices, you know, through free will. I've always believed in God, in my Heavenly Father. I had a good I felt I had a good relationship with him, but he was just, he was just there. He wasn't somebody that, you know, that was the small g god. We hear about that often. And I was my god because I was the one that, that can create.

I was the one that can do what I wanted to do. But coming to the program and realizing that, hey, Andrew, you can't do this. Yeah. on your own, you really can't. And, and I started to understand and, and see in other people and fired that small g god and hired the, the big G God. Start trusting in him, trusting that, yes, I've learned my whole life that God can, can make change in my life and he can take things away from me and he can give me forgiveness.

He can give me grace and mercy. I've learned these things, but finally through this program, I was able to give it a try. Let me, okay, let me just try. Let me lay this at his feet and see what, what happens. And the miracle started to begin. And, and my relationship, my concept of God and, and who he is and what he means in my life has changed drastically as I let him Do what he promises to do, do what he wants to do, rather than taking that into my own hands and say, I got this, I can do this.

I don't got this. And God does. And he will, he will do that.

Tara McCausland: I love it. Thank you for sharing that, Andrew. Kahi, would you like to share?

Kahi: So similar to what Andrew was talking about. I remember as I had gone into 12-step for a while, I remember thinking, like, trying to figure out who the God of my understanding was at that time. And little g god, I, I've not heard that term, but that feels right to where I was at. I, I remember I used to think like, oh, I don't have to ask God for help on this one. He's got other people to help that have bigger problems than me.

I can take care of this. And I did that over and over and over again in all aspects of my life until I hit sex addiction and I was completely crumbled and I just thought, I can't handle this one. I don't know. I don't know what to do. I don't know how to stop my mind from swirling. I don't know how to do any of this. And then I went through a phase of being really angry with the God of my understanding.

Like, how dare you just don't care? You just leave me all alone and you led me down this path. I was trying to do what you said to do and, and now look at where I am. And I went through that phase for a while. I remember sitting through a meeting and a girl saying, That she had just had a similar experience and she had a good conversation with God and told him everything she was angry about.

And she said, the feeling I had when I finished that was that God was lovingly looking at me and saying, well, there you are. I'm so glad you shared that with me. And I had had an experience very similar to with my son just a couple days before that. Where I was trying to get him to tell me what was wrong. I knew something was wrong. He didn't wanna talk about it. Finally, he let it out and it was just this big thing, you know?

And I wasn't angry. I was just like, I'm so glad you told me what's happening. And so that's when she said it that way, I thought, oh, okay. So I tried that. That was very healing for me. As I've gone through 12 steps, I will say now I can honestly say That when I'm struggling, I don't know what to do with an issue or with a feeling or with the next right steps. I, I can say a prayer and connect with my higher power, and I trust that he's there, that he will guide me.

I just need to be willing to put myself into a place where I can hear. And that's a very different God than I used to believe in, and I'm grateful for that.

Tara McCausland: Well, thank you to the two of you for your, your examples of recovery, for your willingness to share so vulnerably with us on this Q&A. I, I too believe in the gifts and the blessings of the program and know that, as we always say in 12-step, it works when we work it. And as we go with an open mind, um, whatever might be holding us back, I believe that If that willing heart is in place, as hard as it might be to step into a room of recovery, as hard as it might be to call a sponsor, as hard as it might be to surrender to a God that we're still not clear is even there, these tools work and, and they bless lives.

So thank you to the two of you for being here today with me and, and for all the work that you have done in SAL 12-step and helping the foundation. You are gifts to me. So thanks for being here with me today.

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