The Importance of Rigorous Honesty in Recovery w/ John H

Narrator: This is Pathway to Recovery, an SA Lifeline Foundation podcast featuring hosts Tara McCausland, who is the SA Lifeline Executive Director, and Justin B., a sex addict living in long-term recovery. We have conversations with experts and individuals who understand the pathway to healing from sexual addiction and betrayal trauma because we believe that recovering individuals leads to the healing of families.

Justin B.: Welcome everybody to the Pathway to Recovery podcast. I'm Justin B., and I'm a gratefully recovering addict, uh, member of SAL, and grateful to be the host of this podcast today. Um, by the time this podcast is released, the SA Lifeline Conference will have been held on September 9th. of 2023 in Salt Lake City. And if you weren't able to attend either live or virtually through Zoom, you can find out more information at salifeline.org and check that out there.

Today, I'm really blessed and grateful to be joined by John H., who's a friend of mine who I have right here in my home office, and I'm really excited about that. Welcome, John. We're happy to have you here. Thank you.

John H.: Glad to be here.

Justin B.: All right. Today we're going to be talking a little bit about a topic that in this podcast we've been doing for a couple of weeks, now, but we're going to dig deep into this topic. It's rigorous honesty. And as we look at the, at the recovery puzzle on salifeline.org and in the SAL book, rigorous honesty is one of the key pieces of the recovery puzzle. And I'm just going to read what it says about rigorous honesty in the SAL book as well as on the website.

Honesty. We choose to be completely honest and transparent and hold our actions and attitudes up to the light of day. Living in recovery means practicing this open, honest, humble way of living one day at a time. When we are honest, we are ready to place our total dependence upon the God of our understanding as the foundation of our recovery. All right, so John, Before I ask you this, I want to say something here. You and I, we've been working together in recovery for a little over 3 years now, 3 and a half years about.

Yep. And as you and I have worked together, you are one of the best examples I can think of, of someone who has really taken this concept to heart of practicing rigorous honesty. And when the topic came up, I was like, okay, who, who can I reach out to that would have that would have something to say and have some weight behind it, and your name came right to mind. So that in mind, John, tell us what brought you into the rooms of SAL, and we'll start talking about rigorous honesty from that point.

Okay.

John H.: Yeah, thanks, Justin. I am a sex addict. I was struggling, and I was hiding, lying about everything. I, I don't think I was telling the truth about anything in my life at that time. I didn't think I was lying. I didn't think I was being dishonest except for this piece of my life that was— I was hiding, you know. And but it wasn't until I came into the rooms and I started learning and understanding that I realized that in fact all that I did pretty much was a lie.

And I've— I tried for years to fix it myself, you know, and I, I wasn't very successful. Hmm. And, you know, my wife, she— I, you know, I was, quote, caught, you know, um, and I just— I needed to do something. And, you know, I started reading the material and I I realized that I couldn't do this if I wasn't completely honest. I had tried for 15 years and it wasn't going to happen by myself. And with the help of my higher power, my God, I, I've been able to be honest now going on 3 and a half years.

Wow. So that's kind of my story.

Justin B.: Yeah. So was there a moment where you realized, like, the light came on and you suddenly went, Holy cow, I am dishonest about everything. Or were you always aware of that, do you think?

John H.: No, I wasn't always aware of it. I mean, in my mind, I was an honest guy except for my stuff, right? And that was secret stuff. That wasn't stuff anybody else was ever going to know about. So I wasn't really lying about it because nobody knew about it, right? At least that was my addict mind. That's the way I thought. But, you know, when I realized, you know, I used to tell people things and exaggerate just to make myself look a little bit better, right?

Stupid, stupid nonsensical things I would lie about. Right. And, you know, when I realized that I was lying about my life, I was lying about everything.

Justin B.: And as you experience these, these realizations of, of how dishonest you were in all of these areas, was it difficult for you to flip that switch to, wow, now I need to be honest? Did it take some time? Was there a transition period? Or was it like, like I said, flipping the switch and I'm forcing— I'm absolutely going to be honest from this moment on?

John H.: No, it wasn't a flip of the switch. It was I chose that decision. I wanted to be honest. I wanted to be done with this. And I went down the path that I was going to do it myself. And my church leader, he suggested I reach out to— actually, it was you— and to go to a church meeting. And I I didn't do that for a month, right? And because I didn't want to tell you anything, right?

And so it wasn't a flip of the switch. I went to my first meeting hesitantly. And in fact, I told you it wasn't my cup of tea and I'd never be able to talk and share any of this stuff with strangers, right? And, you know, I said thanks but no thanks. And then, you know, called you 15 minutes before the meeting asking how to get in there. Hmm. Because I was just being prompted to do so. And I, I was shocked.

I'm grateful. But, you know, that started me on this path of, okay, I got to do this. Now what else do I have to do? And the next thing that kind of got a ball rolling on this honesty thing was, you know, I could do it for myself, by myself, or not. And I needed, I needed help because I wasn't very good at doing it by myself. And I learned about surrender and, and that it was different than what I thought surrender was.

For me, surrender was, hey God, take this from me, I don't want it anymore, you know, take it. Instead of, God, I'm giving this to you. I don't want it. It's yours. Please take it. Um, and when I learned that, that concept, it was just different. And it, it was kind of a switch that said, well, if I can give it to God and he's willing to take it, then I don't have to be dishonest about anything.

Right. And that was kind of my flip of the switch, if you will. Mm-hmm. And I, I got that, and it was cemented after going to meetings for about 2 and a half months. I was struggling with something, and I was surrendering it to God, and it just kept coming back. And I, I wasn't sure what to do. And I was out running errands, and I pulled over, and I parked on the side of the road and I just started yelling and saying, God, what's going on?

Why, why aren't you gonna help me with this? You know? And, and all I, I heard a voice say, make a call. Hmm. And that's all I heard, you know? And so I reached out to someone and made a call and all they did was say, what's up? All those— that's all the stuff that I was struggling with that day was gone instantly. And, you know, at that point I realized that if I do the things I've been asked to do and I'm honest when I mess up, I'm gonna be okay.

Justin B.: Yeah. So, John, one thing you said there that I really want to dig in, because this is something that I think is a universal with pretty much all addicts, at least addicts who have a faith background, like a religious or a faith background, is, you know, I've asked God a million times to take this away. I've demanded, I've begged, I've pleaded, I've prayed, take this from me a million times, and it didn't happen the way I wanted it to happen.

Tell me and tell us a little bit about how your perception of that shifted through this? Because I'm sure you experienced the same thing.

John H.: Yeah, I even tried to negotiate with him. You give me these challenges and struggles if you just took this one away. That didn't work either, by the way.

Justin B.: So don't use that. Don't try that one, huh?

John H.: Yeah. Yeah. Can you ask your question again?

Justin B.: I'm sorry. Yeah. So, so, you know, people of faith, we often in these situations beg God, take this away, take it away. And we don't experience the relief from it. Until something shifts. So tell us your experience of that. I mean, you said, hey, the surrender process went from, hey, take this from me, to I give this to you. But, but walk through that a little bit in more detail.

John H.: Okay, so for me, I had, I had reached the point where I was begging him, my, my God, to take them away, right? To take this stuff away. Because You know, I didn't want it. I, but I wasn't willing, as I learned, I wasn't willing to give it to him. I wanted him to take it. And, and he was not, he wasn't gonna take it. And I had gotten to the point where I believed I was no longer worthy for him to take it.

Because I messed up once, I messed up twice, I messed up 3 times, and 4, and 5, and 1,000. And, you know, and I continued to mess up, and he, he'd actually given up on me, I thought. It wasn't there anymore. I was just going through the motions at that point, and it, it wasn't my fault. It was higher powers' fault.

Justin B.: Um, Was able to blame it on God, huh? Yeah. Yeah. Unfortunately. So, and then as you came through that, and today, what— so, so I want you to walk through a surrender situation like today, maybe just an example of something that— how you physically and timeline-wise go through the process of surrender.

John H.: Okay, so today I surrender anything that's bothering me, right? Originally, when I first started this program, I never needed to look at another web page ever again because it's all in my head. It continues to be there, but I just don't recall it as frequently. But, you know, I had read in one of the books, and I wish I could tell you where, but it was in one of the books, there was somebody who shared who said when they thought about somebody or started to objectify another woman, that what they decided— they said they were going to do was they would surrender it at that point, ask— give it to God, ask him to take it, and then pray for that person.

Hmm. And I thought, hmm, I, I could do that. Maybe that'll help, right? Because at that point in time, I was having these thoughts I don't know, 10 or 12 times an hour. Yeah. It's just, yeah, you know, and it was just, okay, go away, I don't want it. Try to get my mind on something else. And, and so I decided to try it, and, and I was out running errands, and, you know, anytime I saw— I, I happen to be same-sex attracted, and that's my struggle.

So anytime I saw a guy, I would objectify him, and my head would go places that I wasn't pleased with, and and I just I said okay. So every time that happened, I'm gonna surrender it. So you know that sounds like for me it's a simple dear Heavenly Father, I need to surrender these thoughts. I I don't want them anymore. I I'm giving them to you because I I can't handle them. I unable to handle them appropriately and.

I need your help. And then I asked that he would bless that person that I was objectifying at the time with whatever blessings, you know, he felt that the person needed at that point in time. And in that first day, I did 40 or 50 of those surrenders. And, you know, this is the beginning of cope. during COVID time when nobody could go outside, right? I mean, so there wasn't a lot of people around. So I was shocked.

I realized how pervasive that was in my mind, that I would go there so often, and I didn't, didn't like it. Yeah.

Justin B.: And to a normal person, a non-addict, a non-sex addict, that 40 to 50 times a day seems insane. How would one person maybe not have that many thoughts, but how would one person have the willingness to surrender that many times? I remember— I wish I remembered who said this to me. It was either a sponsor of mine or somebody that I looked up to, but they said something to the effect of, when I asked, how many times do I need to do this?

How many times do I need to surrender a day? How many times do I need to reach out to somebody a day? And, and the person told me, Justin, you need to do it at least one more time every time. And no matter what it takes, whether it's once or whether it's 50 times in a day, you need to be willing to do that. And when he first said that, I was like, there's no way. No way.

But here I sit with you, John, and you said 40 or 50 times in one day. And did it work each and every time?

John H.: Yeah, it did. It was incredible. I, I was shocked. that those thoughts instantly went away, and I'm on my way doing my errands until the next one. Yeah. And boom, I did it again. And, and at that point, I was hooked. And, you know, for the first, I don't know, couple months, it was anywhere from 30 to, to 60 times a day. And then all of a sudden, it started to slow down, right? Those thoughts stopped coming as frequently.

To where today, if I have to surrender, it's 2 or 3 times a week, right? I mean, I still do, still comes, but I am so grateful that I'm not fighting that every few minutes, every few hours. I just—

Justin B.: You know, I think that's something really important to really communicate, and you just did a great job with that, John. You know, as an addict, I'm seeking for the quick fix. I'm seeking for the immediate right now solution to what pains me, and I want it to be once and done. But as, as you've shared here, 30, 40, 50, 60 times a day for months before it started to ease off. First of all, that's awesome that you were able to persist and rely on God to help you in that for that long before seeing the results.

And second, I love how you said, hey, it worked every time. I think you said, I was hooked by this time. And I think that's something really interesting. In fact, Dr. Anna Lembke, in her book Dopamine Nation, one of the things that she talks about is the dopamine hit that comes from addictive behaviors, from, you know, things that bring on dopamine. Yeah. You get hooked on it, and it can happen from the bad things really easily, or the things that aren't healthy really easily, like drugs, alcohol, sex, gambling, spending, whatever it may be.

But she talks about that it can also happen in truth-telling, even especially in scary situations where if I tell the truth, I get this little hit of, wow, I just told the truth in a situation that was really scary. Kind of like almost an adrenaline rush when you do something, you know, like a roller coaster ride, and you're scared to death, but you come out and you're like, whoa, that was amazing. Yeah. Tell us a little bit about that, that process of surrender being— you being hooked on it, and it working, even though maybe a minute later, or 10 minutes later, an hour later, there's another Trigger.

Yeah.

John H.: Well, I was shocked that it, that it worked. Um, yeah, and it was like, okay, well, why don't I think— why am I not thinking about this? But, you know, the first time it happened, it was like, why am I no longer— why is it not there, right? And, and I was trying to recall it, and, you know, and it seemed to kind of not be there. And then a few minutes later, something else, or saw another person, another guy, and there I went.

But it was instantly gone. And I, I don't know why. I'm grateful. Yeah. Yeah. Especially since I was to a point where I didn't believe that God cared about me anymore. So why would he be willing to help me? I wasn't to the point where I had realized that he was always there. Yeah. That, um, he was waiting for me to reach out to him. I, I wasn't there in this recovery process, and, and, and so my mindset was, thank you, but I, I don't understand why you're helping me.

But I was grateful for it, and the struggle, the, the fight. I didn't have to fight. And ultimately, as I was being honest in all things, I found it was easier. Hmm. Man, it was so stressful and hard to keep track of all the lies and making sure that the next time I encountered that person who I had embellished something towards or lied to, that I remembered that conversation and didn't contradict what I told them before.

And I— it was just a huge weight that was lifted, right? And that, that wasn't right away. I mean, I was It was about, I don't know, 6, 7 months into my recovery. And we had a well on our property. The pump went out. And so it was a Friday afternoon and I was trying to find a pump and I was calling around to different places to see if they had one. And I called this one place and I got a voicemail.

And so I called my wife and said, yeah. Yeah. I, and I'm trying to get a pump and I called this place and I left 3 voicemails and I'm just going to go down there and get one. And she said, okay, all right. And in that moment I was like, it was eating me up. Hmm. And I had just told her a lie. I went and got that pump, came home that evening. I told my wife I need— there was something I needed to talk to her about.

And she's like, oh no, you know. And I said, you know, we were talking today and I told you that I left 3 voicemails. That's— that was a lie. I only left 1. I don't know why I told you 3. I was worried that you didn't want me to go, but I needed to get this pump because we needed to get this fixed. And it was just a huge weight gone, right? And stupid.

Justin B.: Yeah. Stupid lie.

John H.: But that's who I was.

Justin B.: Yeah, man, what a change it makes, you know, in, in addiction that, and even for me sometimes in general recovery mindset, those types of things come out. You know, I called the person 3 times, I called them 2 or 3 times is kind of what I would typically say when in reality maybe I sent a text message and maybe tried to call once. And that, that just slips out so naturally because of the conditioning that I have put myself through over a whole lifetime of stretching the truth, outright lying.

You know, it's been a couple of years ago, I was interviewing a guy on the other podcast I do. His name's Michael Brody-Waite, and he wrote a book called Great Leaders Live Like Drug Addicts. And he basically took the 12 steps of recovery and boiled it down into 3 different components. One being rigorous honesty. That's basically step one. I have to be rigorously honest about my, my situation, about where I'm at, that I can't get out of it.

2 is surrender the outcome. And 3 is do the uncomfortable work. So as, as I share that with you, those 3 little boiled ideas that boil the 12 steps down into 3 ideas of practicing rigorous honesty, surrendering the outcome, and doing the uncomfortable work. What is your experience with those concepts in your own life and in your own recovery?

John H.: I mean, being honest, to me, it's been the, the greatest blessing in disguise. I, I was a great liar. I could lie to anybody and they'd believe me, but it was hard, you know. I I didn't remember what I lied to him about. And it just makes my life easier. I don't have to hide anything anymore. And that is so freeing, right? I know the cliché is, you know, the truth will set you free, right? But it's, you know, truth is truth.

And being able to say, hey, I Yep, surrender this.

Justin B.: I did it.

John H.: I was the one. I, I, I made those choices. And, you know, that's been great. And, you know, without the work that I've done with my recovery stuff— I'm, I'm still slow at it. I'm only on step 9. Hmm. I am. First time around. Been 3, almost 3 and a half years now. But, you know, it's the pace I can go at. But I'm grateful. Without it, I don't really honestly know where I'd be. I wouldn't be where I'm at.

I'd be struggling because I couldn't do it myself, and that's what I'd be trying to do.

Justin B.: Oh, I want to talk a little bit about the fruits of recovery, the fruits of honesty in your life. What are some of the benefits that you have experienced because you are now practicing honesty? Benefits in your family, benefits in your work life, in, in whatever areas of life that you experience?

John H.: Other than a huge weight, it's been great. I, I have no fear that my wife can pick up my phone anytime and she can go through it. I never have to worry about deleting anything anymore. I have fears. I mean, I got a text from some guy that I chatted with 15 years ago, it was a text that said, hey, how's it going? Right? And, you know, I'm thinking, do I know this person? Because I didn't recognize the number.

And, you know, and, and then I was worried. Do I tell my wife? No? Yes? You know, should I just delete the text and go on? I reached out to a couple guys and asked what they thought. So I ultimately I took it to my wife. I showed it to her, told her what happened. She was able to read the text conversation that we had, and I felt great, right? My wife's response was, if this happens again, all I ask is that you tell me about it.

You can delete the text. You don't have to show it to me. And you know, because I'm gaining some trust back because I'm being honest and I'm showing that, right? And all that we do and all that I do, um, that's, that's the plus, that's the benefit.

Justin B.: I love that. And that, that reminds me of a— there's a couple paragraphs in Dr. Anna Lembke's book called Dopamine Nation on page 195, and this is in her Chapter called Radical Honesty. I'll read this paragraph here. When the people around us are reliable and tell us the truth, including keeping promises they've made to us, we feel more confident about the world and our own future in it. We feel we can rely not just on them, but also on the world to be an orderly, predictable, safe kind of place.

Even in the midst of scarcity, we feel confident that things will turn out okay. And really, I just want to focus on, on those things. Do you feel that— you can't speak for your wife, but do you feel that she feels a little bit more confident and more stable in the world today because she feels she can trust you a little bit more?

John H.: She's getting there. Yeah, she trusted me before she found out anything, right? I was that good of a liar. She, in the back of her head, knew something wasn't right. She didn't know what. But she trusted me. She believed me when I told her things, and that all came crashing down. And today, I believe she is feeling better about the things that I tell her—that I am the straight shooter that I am going to be for the rest of my life.

Because I don't want to go back where I was. It's not a pretty place.

Justin B.: Do you feel in your own life more of that orderly, predictable, and safe kind of place in your own life because of you being willing to be honest?

John H.: Absolutely, man. Stating it that way is, is, is awesome because I am comfortable where I am. I got into the place where any kind of negative emotion or mad at my wife or my kids or whatever, because I was the person I was and doing the things I was doing, I didn't feel like I had the right to get mad at anybody else. And so I just would bury those things and it just would eat me up inside and And I today have the ability to— my wife and I have a disagreement, I can say, okay, I'm struggling with that.

Okay. And here's why. And I could never do that anymore. It wasn't— I didn't think I deserved it.

Justin B.: But on that note, do you feel that you standing up for yourself in those instances can sometimes be seen as a negative in your marriage. Does that come across sometimes from your wife saying, hey, why are you suddenly standing up for yourself in these instances when you haven't for this many years?

John H.: Yeah, no, my, my wife is almost like a psychologist. So her mind thinks about everything. And, and kind of the struggles that we have is I want to go do something this way. And she'll say, well, that doesn't seem right. You should do it like this. And here's why. And she's right. Right. But I want to do it my way, which will get it done, but not her way. And in the past, I'd shut down. I'd go do it my way.

She wouldn't know any different. And we were good. Right. But today I say, well, I understand. I prefer to do it my way because I'm more comfortable that way. And she'll argue for a bit, and then I, and I'll say, okay, I appreciate the, the thought, but I'm going to do it this way. Yeah. And here's why, because I'm again more comfortable. And so those conversations happen. She's not ever said, why are you Why are you saying this now?

Because I, I think I preface my— when I'm gonna react that way with, okay, in the past you just let these things go. I can't. I'm frustrated. I'm letting you know that I'm struggling with this. You want me to show my emotions and, you know, let you see that I have them. I'm doing that now. And, huh. So that's kind of been for me A blessing. Yeah, she's willing to listen.

Justin B.: I love that preface that you just said that you put in there. And I think— and I'm putting myself in those shoes right now— that's scary for me to, to lay that out and say, hey, I'm just expressing my feelings here. I'm feeling some frustration, some anger, some rejection, some whatever. So this is the preface that I want to give to what I'm going to say next. But man, I really appreciate you saying that. Helps me a ton.

And, and I'm sure others out there listening will be like, oh, well, that's a good idea. Before we start wrapping this up, is there anything else on the topic of honesty, of rigorous honesty, that you would like to share a little bit more on?

John H.: I, well, it's easier. It's just easier. I, I never believed that before. Because I was hiding so much, and, you know, I thought my life was over if I— if any of it came out. And I'm grateful my life continues, but no, I don't think I have anything more.

Justin B.: And there is one more question that I have. You mentioned that, hey, you've been working the steps for 3 and a half years about, and you're on step 9. You're taking it slow, you're taking it very thorough and methodical. Yeah. Do you have anything to say to the— maybe a newcomer, maybe a not-so-newcomer out there that feels like, I have to get in and I have to do this immediately and I have to get through this as quickly as possible, based on your experience?

John H.: That was my thought. I was going to do the steps, get it done with, and be done, right? My struggle was, as I started reading the material and doing the work, I found that it hurt a lot. My first step inventory hurt a lot. It opened up my eyes. Garbage. And, and I, I couldn't do it any faster because I had to set it aside. and focus on something else because it hurt. I had so much shame and guilt about all of it, and it just— as I would go through those processes, I— it would just bring everything back up, right?

And I didn't want to go back there, and I, I just needed time to process that because I buried every emotion that I you know, I had up until that point, and I wasn't burying him anymore. And this process isn't easy, but, but it hurt. And because it hurt, I had to take it slower. That's, that's what was going on. But I was right there. I wanted to get it done, be through these 12 steps, be done with these meetings, and be on my way.

Mm-hmm. And not real life. Mm-hmm. There has been in the process of these steps times of procrastination, times when all I do is think about it for a second and say, nah, not today. I'll, I'll get back to it tomorrow. But, but I'm committed now. Um. I struggle when I have to miss a meeting because I have a obligation that I have to get to or do, or— and, um, grateful for all that I've learned.

Justin B.: And I want to follow up on that because so many people that I've worked with or been aware of who, when they hit those painful parts and they just can't do it, they set it aside and never go back to it. What things have you done that have helped you keep the courage and build the courage to go back to it when it hurts so bad that it just— I've got to set it aside for a little bit?

John H.: Um, so for me, I, I reached out, talked to a couple guys who've been through it before. That was helpful. Um, I, I had this I don't want to go back there ever again. And, and listening to other guys, um, say that, yeah, you know, I got to Step 3 and all was good and things were great, my life was wonderful, and why do I need to do Step 4? And I was there. Mm-hmm. And, and I, you know, realized that I have to do it.

And step 1 was hard. Step 4 was hard. Step 5 was hard. Step 9 is hard. Step 8 was hard, writing the list. But, but I, I don't want to go back to that life. And the only way that'll happen is I continue the work. And it's not a race, you know. For me, it's a lifestyle, if you will. It's, it's my new life. I'm making that choice. And again, every day I think about it and I say, yep, I'm going to work on it or I'm not, right?

But I, but I think about it every day, and when I feel strong, I work. That works for me. Yeah. It's not going to work for everybody that way, like you said. others are gonna say, oh well, today's good, well tomorrow's good, the next day was good, I think I'm good, I don't need to go any further. I'm to the point that I know if I don't keep working at it, I'm not good.

Justin B.: Thank you for sharing that. So I have 2 closing questions that we ask of all of our guests in this podcast. One is, what advice do you have for the newcomer coming into the rooms for the first time? What Um, experience do you have to share with them to help them feel more comfortable or keep coming back?

John H.: Well, first off, it works. But listen, come into the rooms with an open mind. I didn't. I came because I was told to, right? But that first meeting, I listened. and heard other guys share and, and being vulnerable and sharing things that to me were similar to my, my struggles that I was ashamed of and was going to take to my grave and nobody was ever going to know. And, and it was just realizing that you're not alone.

You're just like you, just like me, you know. I'm just like you. And if, if I can be helped, if God has been there for me all this time waiting for me to reach out, he's there for you. And, um, it works.

Justin B.: Beautiful. Thank you for sharing that. And the last question is, what about an old-timer, say that's been in the rooms for, well, 3 and a half years or longer, you know, and, and they're starting to think, maybe I don't need this. Why, from your perspective, does someone like that need to continue being in the rooms?

John H.: For me, um, every meeting I go to, I learn something new. I typically hear something that I needed to hear. my struggles this past week were X, and somebody shared Y, and that was something that was like, wow, how cool is that? I never thought of that. That's, that's what I would share. It's, you continue to learn. You just stay focused, listen, because there's always somebody new who's going to come up with Other ideas. All right, that's my thoughts.

Justin B.: Thank you so much, John. I really appreciate this conversation we had. It's helped me a ton. It's opened my eyes more to what, what rigorous honesty means, what some of the fruits and the benefits of that are. And I really appreciate your, your friendship and your willingness to share that. Everybody, we're happy you came along. Keep coming back. As John said, and as we always say at the end of our meetings, it works when I work it.

So work it. You're worth it.

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