Healing Individuals and Couples From the Effects of Sexual Addiction and Betrayal Trauma – 2026 SAL 12-Step Conference

Narrator: This is Pathway to Recovery, an SA Lifeline Foundation podcast featuring hosts Tara McCausland, who is the SA Lifeline Executive Director, and Justin B., a sex addict living in long-term recovery. We have conversations with experts and individuals who understand the pathway to healing from sexual addiction and betrayal trauma because we believe that recovering individuals leads to the healing of families.

Tara McCausland: Hello friends. Welcome to the Pathway to Recovery Podcast. I am your host, Tara McCausland. How is your summer going? We typically take July off, but because we are wanting to share more from our 2026 SAL 12-Step Conference, we're taking the opportunity to post an episode And I'm excited to share with you these 2 individual shares from people that are working our SAL 12-step program. First, a heartfelt share from Brandon P., who is a recovering sex addict, and a share from Bing H., who is also working her recovery, but from betrayal trauma.

And again, these are really heartfelt, tender shares. I'm sure that you'll appreciate their authenticity. And also after that, you'll hear a presentation from Heather and Justin B., and they'll be talking about how they worked through some of the challenges in their marriage as they were working their recovery from sexual addiction and betrayal trauma. And you'll note that they have slides and they refer to the SA Lifeline circle models. If you're unfamiliar with them, I have left a link in the show notes to take you there on salifeline.org so you can see these models, which can be very helpful as you're working your recovery.

Individually and in your marriage. And so I challenge you to go take a look at that link while you're listening to Heather and Justin's presentation. And I know that you'll find it helpful. It will make a little bit more sense. But before we dive in, a quick announcement. I'm so excited to share that our registration for our 2026 Women's Workshop is now live on salifeline.org. And this workshop, it aims to be an affordable and safe event for women who are seeking healing from the effects of sexual betrayal and the associated trauma.

And the workshop will feature therapist presentations, group discussions, breathwork sessions, and opportunities to heal through nature and artistic expression. Come join us September 18th and 19th in Mapleton, Utah. This is one of my favorite events that we put on each year. All right, now Grateful for the opportunity to share these presentations with you from our 2026 SAL 12-Step Conference.

Brandon P.: My name's Brandon P., and I just can't help but recognize I'm joined here by my beautiful wife, Angela. She just doesn't trust it when I call her beautiful, but I won't make that stop me from making sure she knows that I think she is and I love her, and I'm grateful that she's here today with me. And not only that, but still here with me through all the things I've done. To understand what finding recovery means to me, first you need to know where I've been.

I grew up with some, some hard in my life when I was young, truly traumatic experience that led me to finding unhealthy ways to cope with life. Choices that led me deeper into darkness. choices that made me terrified of being seen. And I told myself that nobody would ever know. And truthfully, if 30 years ago Brandon thought, knew that he would be standing right here right now, he'd be like, that's impossible. So I just kept pushing that fear down.

And it just made it easy to stay stuck in it. And I just kept coping with life in ways that were very unhealthy. And those unhealthy ways were not only destroying me, but they were destroying everyone around me, the people that loved me the most. And I carried that weight for years. It was more than years. I carried that weight for decades. I hit rock bottom about, about 2 years ago, a little over 2 years ago. I was tired of secrets.

I was tired of shame. And I was tired of feeling alone. What I found by working recovery is that I had been defining God by how I treated myself and by how I heard others talk about him. Not what they actually said, but what I heard them say. And what I heard them say for decades, what I heard myself say to myself for decades, was that healing wasn't available for someone like me. That the Atonement was for people who had not gone as far as I had.

But man, was I wrong. When I finally let myself see the wreckage my choices had caused— really see it, not run from it— something shifted. Seeing the truth of what my selfishness had cost me and the people who loved me the most led me to a different place. Not deeper into shame, but through it, seeing the truth of where I was and turning towards something better. I had to look honestly at what I was focusing on and realizing what I thought was the problem wasn't really the problem.

The real problem is I had never actually learned for myself who God was to me. I had built a version of him out of fear and shame. I had to let go of that version. I needed to find out who he truly was to me. The hardest part for me to trust was that if it would stick. I told myself a million times that I was done, and just to the next minute, the next hour, the next day, it was back.

And so I knew where I had been and how quickly I'd find myself turning Away from it, and then back to coping with life, and away from it and back, like this vicious cycle over and over again. The idea of making a decision to turn my life over to the care of God was hard. It seemed like a one-time thing for me, like, and that— and I didn't trust myself that I could make that decision one time and stick with it.

What I learned is that decision isn't made once. For me, it's made every day, or sometimes every minute, or sometimes every second, whatever it took. So I planted a seed and watered it faithfully every day. The grace I found in recovery is full. It's infinite. And it isn't something that happens someday. It's available to me right now. There's nothing I can do, no depth I can reach, no length of time I spend in the dark that puts me outside of what's already been given.

I cannot recover alone. Grace isn't what happened after all I can do. It's what makes everything possible at all. One of my favorite scriptures right now is Isaiah 43:1, and it says this better than I can. Fear not, for I have redeemed thee. I have called thee by night by name. Thou art mine. He knows my name. I am his. And as you can see, that hits me every time. I don't believe in coincidence anymore, and I can see God in my life every day when I go through hard things, and I still do.

He doesn't take the pain away, but he walks with me through it. I feel light and free in a way I never have before, and I am never letting that go. It has changed me. So my parting thought, if you're in a place that seems so dark that you don't know your way out, that you don't know if your higher power still loves you or can meet you where you are, Just know it's possible because He came and found me there.

Just to end with what we say at the end of every meeting, it works when I work it, so work it. You're worth it. Thanks.

Bing H.: I actually, I'm so used to sharing in a recovery group of women. So this is my first time to share in a group setting like this with men and women here. Like the whole family is here. So I made sure that my share is gonna benefit everybody. Also, this is my second year attending this conference and my third year in recovery. So I came to America from the Philippines with a promise of an American dream of a red brick house and an RV on the side of the house and children, happy family.

I got that. Thank you very much. And on December 4th, 2022, it started like a normal day. At the end of that day, that dream was redefined because 3 things took my breath away and almost took my life. First one, the not knowing, the questioning of my own reality. I couldn't tell what was true anymore. I couldn't See a future. Number 2, I had fallen into a deep, dark abyss filled with helplessness, hopelessness, and shame, and this constant feeling of drowning.

I couldn't even eat nor sleep, and living in fear and grief, the kind of grief that no one else could see, but it never let up. It was relentless. Number 3, the triggers. I didn't even know that it has a name. All I knew that there was this sudden whole body and mind reaction, and they were everywhere. They were unpredictable, and they were waiting to happen at any time in any place. Moments that should have been joyful, like the birth of our first grandbaby, family pictures, even watching a beautiful show.

It's a musical by Carole King. Or something as ordinary as a cashier at Walmart. who in the moment felt uncaring. And these 3 things were disorienting, they were exhausting, and they were life-robbing for me. I can say this, I was in my own Garden of Gethsemane, and in that place, I came to understand something I didn't yet have words for. I was powerless, and my life had become unmanageable. Unbeknownst to me, I had lived step 1 before I even knew what step 1 was.

And because it's like magic, because of my surrender and my inability to tell my higher power that I can't do this, that I needed help, God has led me to this group, to this SAL 12-step group on March 22nd, 2023. Finding SAL and the 12 steps gave me something I didn't think I would ever feel again. So 4 things grounded me from attending SAL 12-step. Number one, hope. It didn't fix everything. Finding the group and attending the group every week did not fix everything, but it saved my life.

I was given a framework for recovery, a 3-legged stool, a qualified therapist, which I'm grateful I found Hope Therapy. It's taken me 4 tries, 4 trials of different therapists until my group had highly recommended Hope Therapy, and I was able to meet one over your therapist, Amanda. Thank you very much. So a qualified therapist, a group support that I get to meet every Thursday, and if I couldn't, I go to Tuesday, and if I go on vacation, I go online.

So since the day I started, there was probably only a couple of times that I missed attending my group meetings. And a sponsor. I'm grateful for those sponsors who are always there, always have time to make sure that I know that there's someone behind me. And over time, I learned grounding principles like surrender and self-care that began to steady me. Number 2, they helped me face my emotions instead of being overwhelmed by them. They helped me seek truth instead of getting lost in confusion, and they helped me build connection instead of living in isolation.

And slowly, I was given promises to hold on, that I'm not crazy, that I'm not alone, and that there is a way through this. Number 3, The intensity of pain, that constant emotional flooding, it didn't stay the same. It began to soften, and little by little, I felt the ground under my feet again. I also come to understand this: I'm not responsible for what was broken, and it's not mine alone to fix. Number 4, I can't hurry pain and healing.

Letting go hasn't been instant. It's a process. But every time I release even a small piece of that weight, I get a part of myself back. Today, I hold on to this, that God and support remain at the center of my healing. Healing doesn't require perfect outcomes. Lastly, I've come to realize something important about my life as my healing continues. I grew up surrounded by sexual addiction and betrayal trauma across generations, far away, 7,000 miles from where I'm living right now, in my grandparents, in my parents, my siblings, and extended family members.

I wasn't an isolated case in my family, and changing geographical location did not spare me. Because of that, my definition of the American dream has changed. Now it's a dream of rescue. It is to heal generational trauma, break the cycle, and protect my children and future posterity from the bondage I came from. And this feeling is no longer just for me. It is for those who come after me. Thank you.

Justin B.: I'm going to turn some time over to Heather because, well, she's really the reason that we're able to sit here and speak to people about this topic of healing families. And I'm the reason why it's a rocky pathway from hurt to healing. So Heather, you want to share a little bit about and introduce yourself?

Heather: Hi, I'm Heather. I've been in the rooms of recovery since 2006. But I found SAL during 2020. When COVID happened, my meeting shut down, and at first I—he was already attending and wanted me to attend, and I was like, "No, don't tell me what to do." And I finally realized I needed my meetings back. So I started attending SAL. Originally, when I found out about my husband's addiction, I immediately went to my clergy member. and was begging for help.

And fortunately, after a few months of me begging for help, he finally sent me to an Al-Anon meeting. And I was so grateful that I was finally gonna go to a place where they were gonna tell me how to fix my husband. And was sadly disappointed to find out that was not what the meetings were about. And it was about me. But quickly learned that that was the best thing for it to be about me, 'cause that was the only thing I had control over.

So, But I'm super grateful for the steps and grateful to be here and share just some of the stuff that we've learned as a couple. So.

Justin B.: And part of that story is she went into the Anon rooms almost immediately. There was no way anywhere that I was going to step into a 12-step room. Zero chance. So it took almost 8 years of her working her recovery and me saying, I got this. I'm doing this on my own. I'm going to work harder and pray harder and do all of these different things harder. And I will be— I will beat this. I will win this war because there is zero chance I am powerless over anything and zero chance that my life is unmanageable.

It took me 8 years of beating my head against the wall and crashing into the rocks over and over again before I finally went to her and said, hey, okay, where are these rooms that you've been telling me about? What do you need me to do? And my, my remembrance of that reaction was, all right, whatever. Here they are. Do what you will. I don't believe anything else is going to happen, but it worked out. Here I am, a grateful recovering sex addict.

I am so grateful for my addiction. It has brought me to the lowest of lows, and recovery has brought me to a semblance of sanity and peace and serenity in my life. While she's pulling this up, One more thing that I want to talk about is, and this, this idea that creation is messy, recovery is messy. This path that we walk, it's not paved in gold. It's not smooth. It's rough. It's hard. But standing still on the rocky, rough path, but up a little ways and being able to look back at where I've come.

It is so worth it. It's so worth it. And it, but, and it's so easy to get distracted by what's ahead. There's a blind corner up there. What does that mean? Is there a dragon up there ready to kill me? Is there another drip disclosure that's going to happen that's going to crush me? What do I need to focus on? What do I need to deal with?

Heather: Right before this, we were talking and we started remembering a movie clip and I was going to play it, but audibly because our slides are already done and submitted. But I don't know if you've seen the movie Runaway Bride, but if you have, there's this moment where one of the characters— it's got Julia Roberts and I don't remember the guy's name— but anyway, he's talking about one of her issues, keeps running away. And he's like, focus on Bob, focus on Maggie, focus on Bob, focus on Maggie.

And that's really the truth in the beginning. Like, as a couple, you are focusing on your own recovery. You can't— I couldn't be focusing on his. I I had to focus on mine, and I had to go through the messy. Anytime you're creating something, there's messiness. I mean, you can't— anyone who's into art— I am not, I'm not an artist, I'm not good at creating— but anyone who does create knows it makes a mess. There's a mess through it.

And it was messy. There was messiness. But my sponsor was there to guide me. I had a therapist who worked with me. Um, he was amazing. He wasn't a CSAT even. I prayed for him, actually. Our CSAT that we had in the beginning, because he did agree to marital counseling, and it was horrid. It was the worst experience of my life. And we quickly realized that, yeah, I, at least I quickly realized I needed to do this myself.

Um, and it needed to be about me right now anyway. And I'm just, I'm just so grateful for the messy because eventually it creates beauty. Beauty from ashes is one of my favorite Christian scriptures. They talk about it a lot. And that's what I believe. God of my understanding can make this beautiful. I didn't think it at the time. But I'm in a place now where I see it. It took a while. It took time. But this is— this painting is one of my favorite paintings.

It's called Serenity. And when I saw it, it just, like, spoke to me because that is how I feel. There can be a rainstorm, but because of the steps, I have peace. I know who to look to. And it's my God, the God of my understanding. I find that power and that peace, and I find that serenity in the surrender. My friend painted it, actually. Her name's Kiki Tolman, and she painted it, and it hangs in my office at work.

And I have so many clients that come in, and they'll comment about my painting, and I just, I just love it. But through the messy and through things, God has created something from my pain, from my wounds that is beautiful. And I'm just so grateful for that in my life.

Justin B.: And I really identify with this also, as was mentioned in the opening keynote. You know, there's, there's things that happened in my life. I didn't come in swinging a sledgehammer on purpose, being this conscious harm-doer, this conscious abuser. That wasn't my intention in any way, shape, or form. It's all I knew. And it was not consciously done. I had things that happened in my childhood and youth that brought me to where I thought I had to be this way.

I thought I had to protect, I had to be rigid, I control. That's me. That is me 100%. And I have to protect that image no matter what. My family of origin was all about protecting image. Had to be perfect. At least look that way. And I came in looking that way and not being that way. And that was something that I was super dishonest about for many years. Let's talk about some of the mess here. These are the circles models that you can find in the SAL book.

If you've got it, it's on page 18. Is that where? Yeah, page 18. If you want to see it a little bit closer, if you've got your SAL books on page 18, these are the circle models there. But what we've got, we've got the mess and we've got the beauty from ashes in these. And I want you to take a look at up here. We got our drama triangle. This is The mess, right? This is the chaos that, that happens here.

We've got the victim, the rescuer, the persecutor. Notice what is not at the top of that triangle. It's not God. It's not some power greater than self.

Heather: So this is the point where we, we, for us, I mean, we got to this place, the God at our center, that as a couple, that's where we got. And that's where we Finally got to. And then I love the way my counselor talked about it. He's like, it's like a dance, this dysfunctional dance, and you stop dancing and he's not going to know what to do. And that is exactly what happened. I stopped dancing the dance and we had to redefine.

So this is that icky chaos marriage right there, the relationship. And there is that drama triangle. We would— I'd be the persecutor, he'd be the victim. Sometimes I'd be the rescuer and he would be the victim. We would flip around and all those things. And lacking trust, disconnected, all of these things completely related to in our marriage, in our relationship at that point, because it had broken. Our relationship had completely broken. And being able to heal, then we could move into this circle together.

Yeah. Once we were able to get God at our center, both of us, and that's still, that's still work. That's a daily thing for me. But once we, once we got that together, then we were able to live this triangle in the middle. And that triangle in the middle for us is probably one of the greatest blessings. And because we can live that triangle in the middle, then all the things on the outside start coming together.

Yeah. And start happening, and you move out of that. And then hopefully this is the family model right here, model of the healthy family, that it translates to your kids. Your kids see it, it's a reflection. Now I recognize I've already told my kids, you know, you're gonna probably need some therapy because of me, but just know I did the best I could with what I had. But it's that, that hopefully this translates down To our kids.

That's our goal. That's our thing. Now we're healing those relationships.

Justin B.: I'm sure many of you have seen this, this model before, the relationship triangle. At the bottom corners are you and your partner, and the top is the God of our understanding. In— when disclosure happens, when discovery happens, man, this distance at the bottom is like— is it an isosceles triangle that's really wide? You're a long ways away and, and probably also a really long ways away from God, from the higher power at that point. And it's just a huge triangle with the lines probably don't even connect.

It's probably shattered. And throughout this journey walking, like I said, Heather went to the rooms of recovery and sought healing. One sought to fix me and then realized, nope, it's not about me. It's about her healing and her relationship with God. It's and her relationship with herself and others around her. And maybe eventually I would come along as a, as a wounded puppy. But if not, she had to be okay with that. And so she started moving up this line closer to God.

And I said I was, but I was still just thinking, nope, there's no way. Everybody but me Is worthy of being helped by God. I've begged for decades. Take this from me, God. Take it from me. I even thought about chemical castration, going in and having something done because that would cure the problem. That wasn't the problem. Sex wasn't the problem. I was pretty stagnant for a long, long time, not getting closer to God, not getting closer to my wife, but she was moving along, getting closer.

Other times, as we're working this, I may be moving up and she may have a I'm stepping back right now. I'm falling back on this path. But our goal, our goal hopefully is to have an eye single to God and look that way. And as we each are looking that way and aiming that way, we get closer to each other and closer to God. Do you have any other thoughts on that that you want to share there?

Heather: Yeah. So just imagine those words moving up the triangle. As I get closer to God, then we come closer together. As I worked my steps, and eventually he started working his steps, then slowly that change started to happen where we were able to start to have better connection. Communication still sucks. He was telling me that—

Justin B.: So anonymity, 100%. What is said here, what's— who we see here, what we hear here, let it stay here. I was in a meeting here recently that the coolest thing was shared. It just made me chuckle and made me go, me too. The person said, you know what? I'm no longer worried about getting divorced over this sexual addiction thing. It's now over the normal things that normal people get divorced about, like communication. We just don't communicate very well.

And I just was like, me too. And I'm grateful that— am I grateful for that? I realize that is more reality for me today. I recognize that it could change tomorrow if I make a different decision. But today it's the communication issues or the things that normal couples deal with that would cause us to be divorced. So I just thought that was powerful and funny. And me too.

Heather: But no, it, it's completely changed my view. Of being a partner. I am so grateful I can be the person I need for me now. It's about me and God, and that connection just helps me be more connected to others. Learning what I needed and understanding that I just didn't even know what I needed. I had just numbed it so quickly with control or whatever to get out of it. And so Anyway, being open to communication and being open to connection as I healed— again, this takes time.

I had to completely reframe what our relationship looked like, what our marriage looked like. It's completely different than it was when we first got married, but it's better. I didn't know it could be better.

Justin B.: I love how she said that. It's better. It's different. And for a while I was like, why can't we go back to when we were both happy and naive and everything was great? Well, that was a lie. It wasn't real. Now, the memories we have are real. The good things that happened are real. I don't have to throw out all that crap just because it wasn't 100% honest. But I do have to restart and rebuild from We had to restart and rebuild, and we still continue to rebuild that foundation while much more solid is still being rebuilt.

The building is still being rebuilt. And I think that's, I think there's a truth to that in, if I'm honest with myself, whether I'm an addict, whether I'm a normal person, we're a normal couple. I think that building has to be in continual remodeling in order for it to Continue to be good. I mean, you could have a building. I mean, you look at those, the ancient cathedrals in Europe that were built like in the 1400s, they're constantly being remodeled, built up, reinforced, whatever, so they aren't falling to the ground.

Because just like a marriage, if it isn't constantly being renewed, refreshed, it will fall to the ground. It'll crumble in neglect.

Heather: And I will say for me, I did have to redefine some things. I was just having a conversation with someone yesterday. We redid our wedding pictures. I tried to fit my wedding dress. That was a no-go. Sorely disappointed, but knew it was probably not gonna happen. So I wore a black dress, which I guess is kind of symbolic. I had a bouquet. He had a bouquet made that looked like the bouquet I had, and we retook our wedding pictures.

And then like my wedding ring, I redefined my wedding ring a long time ago. Just by happenstance with God, he wanted to get me a new wedding ring. And I was like, no, I really like mine. Because again, I had already re— reframed it. But instead I got this little promise ring because I liked it and it was cheap because that's how I— anyway, there's ways to redefine things, ways to recreate new things too. That's what I like about where we're at now is that we're able to recreate and re— Do, because some of the stuff, yeah, it is, it's triggering.

It's hard. Um, we used to go on vacations all the time together, and that was really hard after disclosure because I was like, that was all fake. That was all not real. But I, we've been able to redefine some of that together, and that's been very helpful as well. But I think your higher power will lead you to those things, like individually, as a couple. It's very individual. We've talked about other ideas But we haven't gotten there.

So one day, maybe one day. Okay. Should we do the next slide? Let's move on. Okay. This is a huge one. This was a huge moment for me, and especially with couples. Like, I feel like this is a couple's thing, learning about boundaries versus walls. I thought boundaries were walls. That's a boundary. You put up a wall. And the hard thing with a wall is if I put up a wall, I don't have anywhere to go.

I'm up against that wall. Building a wall doesn't create connection, didn't help me move forward. Whereas boundaries— and I love this picture because boundaries are to keep me safe, but I always thought walls were the thing that had to keep me safe. But actually, boundaries give me an opportunity to move. I can step over, I can, I can run away, I can, I can do what's in my power, in my control, unlike a wall. And the biggest thing for me when I learned that boundaries were if-then statements, I was like, that makes so much sense.

And it's, if blank happens, then I must do this. And I, I was like, okay, it's not, if this happens, then he does this, because I don't have power or control over him. If I had had power and control, I would've stopped all of this years ago. I would've put you in my pocket. That's what I told him when I found out on D-Day. I was like, I wanna shrink you down and put you in my pocket and control every move you make now.

But I was like, oh, if this happens, then I must do this. Now, I can also create boundaries for myself. If I do blank, then I will do this. So one of my first boundaries that I created was with my therapist. He was helping me with boundaries. He's trying to help me understand. And he created this boundary with me. And I still remember it because it was like the most powerful experience. So I had, and it had nothing to do with my husband, which made it even better.

My in-laws love to talk about calories and food when you're out eating, and it drives me crazy. And I, I am a recovering anorexic. It was so triggering for me every time we'd be eating and they'd just suddenly start talking about dieting and food. And I was talking to my counselor about it and he goes, okay, so if You're at dinner and they start talking about— so if this happens, then I must do what? And I was like, scream?

What power or control do I have? I honestly didn't feel like I had any power or control in that moment. And he said, why don't you try to change the subject? And I was like, oh, I can do that. I can totally do that. So the next time we were together, because we lived right by them, we literally lived like, what, a mile from Not even a mile. So we were at dinner again together, and they were started talking about food and all these things, and I went, so what about those Arizona Diamondbacks?

Anybody watch the game lately? You know, like, I just tried to change the subject, and it did not work. It did not work. And I was like, my therapist is full of it. I don't know what he thinks. So the next time I met with him, I said, hey, I tried it, didn't work. And he's like, okay, so let's make a second boundary. And I was like, wait, what? We make a second one? And he goes, yes.

If they start talking about food, then I must do— change the subject. Okay, that doesn't work. We have another one. This happens, then— and I was like, again, throw the table. I don't know. I was just like, I don't know what to do. And he goes, Why don't you get up and leave? Oh, I can't do that. I could totally just get up and walk away from the table. I don't have to stay. There's nothing that says I have to stay.

And I was like, okay. And the next time— so ironically, the next time we were at a restaurant, we're actually at a restaurant celebrating my brother-in-law graduating from college. And they— again, we, we get our food and immediately that is the discussion of the table. Everyone starts talking about how many calories are in this, their exercise routine, their diet, all these things. And I am just like sitting there going, I can't eat this now. And I tried to change the subject, did not work.

And I got up and I walked away and I went outside. And it was the first time I felt peace. I just stood out there and I was like, wow, this feels amazing. Like, I could leave my in-laws behind and not have resentment, not feel anger, not— I could just walk out there and be like, it feels nice out here. Sit out there for a while, and I'm sure they thought, what the heck is she doing?

But, and then I came back, and by the time I came back, the topic had changed, probably because I got up and walked away, and they probably were talking about me walking away. And then when I came back, they were like, oh, let's talk about something else now. But I, I was so grateful for that moment, and since then I have just been like, okay. And there is power in writing them down. I will tell you To write, because if I don't write down my boundary, these were the first ones I ever wrote down.

I don't remember them. I'm like, crap, what did I say I would do if this would happen? I cannot remember. And writing them down has just helped me.

Justin B.: Okay. Before we get to the I ones, when a boundary is set by a spouse who has been betrayed and the addict is the first time this happens, I guarantee my take is A wall was put up. I have been punished. I have been banished. I have been told that I am garbage, but that's not what it is. It's a really hard thing to change that mindset though, because the image is, if I do this and she says, you know what, if you act out, I am going to leave.

I'm going to sleep on, on the couch. I am going to go in the other room. Yeah. And we are not going to have a conversation for a little while. To me, even though in this instance where she said she's going to go sleep on the couch, if I'm in the bedroom alone, I feel like I am isolated. I'm walled in and I can't do anything about it. But she didn't say, you are out of the house if that happens.

She said, I will take care of this. Now, there may be times when that needs to happen, right? But you can leave the house just as easily as I can, right? Yeah. Now, me saying that may sound a little bit grating to you, those of you who are the betrayed right now. So I want to have Heather say that, I guess, but, but I'm saying it, but she said, I can leave the house just as easily as you can.

If I won't leave, you'll leave. Yeah. So I just wanted to put that out there. It is really easy to see these things as walls at first until I start healing and recognizing and being honest with myself. What was the phrase that, uh, Amanda had up there something about when I can tell myself about myself, there's some freedom there. If I'm honest with myself about what's going on, there's some freedom there. I've totally butchered it, but that's the idea that I got out of it.

So I just wanted to touch on that for a minute.

Heather: Yeah. And well, and he lived with an unboundaried spouse for so long that when I started having boundaries, he was like, what the heck is this? And yeah, and everybody's is different. This is very personal. This is very, I do have a boundary if he relapses, then I will sleep in a different room. If— especially if he won't do it. Usually he will. He's very good about it. But if they're not, that's the whole thing about boundaries is it gives me power.

It gives me the control. It gives me the thing to do, not them. Now, the, the next ones are if I, then, and these are like for my own recovery. So like, let's say if I look at Facebook for 30 minutes to numb out, then I will reach out to my sponsor And talk about what's going on with myself. Okay, things like that. These are our own boundaries of what am I doing for my own self-care? What am I doing for healthy coping skills?

Instead of— I look at it as more as if I use an unhealthy coping skill, then I will go to my healthy coping skills is what— how I look at it now. Because I did. I, I had unhealthy coping skills. And so that it's really cool because with boundaries you can create them for yourself and it helps you have self-love. I can tell you living a boundaried life has created less resentment, more love. I can actually talk about my mother-in-law and feel like, like I actually love her.

I actually can say I love her and I see good things about her. And boundaries have been the only way I've been able to do that. And again, it's not a wall. It's just something I have in my back pocket to use if I need it. Um, if I'm not feeling safe, if I'm not feeling connected, I can do something to feel better and feel more connected, especially to my higher power.

Justin B.: And I'm also grateful for— we definitely still are not perfect at this boundary stuff. We still will walk all over each other's boundaries sometimes, not as much on purpose anymore. It's unconsciously. And then when we recognize it—

Heather: If I feel angry, like anger, there's nothing wrong with anger. Okay, here's my little soapbox moment. I don't believe in good or bad feelings. Feelings are feelings. They're there to tell me what's happening. And if I'm feeling angry, then most likely a boundary's been crossed and I need to figure out what that boundary was and create a boundary for that. Now, if I choose to use that anger and I Go in my room and I scream and I yell at God, or I hit a pillow, or I, you know, whatever, that is a good use of my anger.

If I take my anger out on my kids or my husband or whatever, and they don't even know why I'm angry, then that's a poor choice of using my anger. Feelings and emotions are a good sign for me, and especially anger. Like, I know when I get angry, boundary's been crossed, and I just have to figure it out. Here's our rocky road. It's still a little rocky. It's still an upward climb, and it's not perfect in any way, shape, or form, but there is some beauty in it now.

We definitely have come a long way in our beauty for ashes, for sure, and still are, still are on the journey. We are not perfect in any way, shape, or form, and we're still, we're still learning.

Justin B.: Yeah. Real quick, Big Book wisdom. You know, if we're seeking for knowledge about recovery, this is where we go. Big Book of Alcoholics Anonymous, Step 10. Our next function is to grow in understanding and effectiveness. This is not an overnight matter; it should continue for our lifetime. I can't check a box and say it's all done. This isn't this is not an overnight matter, and it will continue for my lifetime. Continue to watch for selfishness, dishonesty, resentment, and fear, anger—the things that that we feel disconnected from God when we feel those things.

When these crop up, we ask God at once to remove them. God, remove this resentment that I'm feeling towards my mother-in-law. Then we discuss them with someone immediately. Pick up the phone, thumb out a text message, make a call. I am experiencing resentment right now. I've given it to God, but now I'm talking to you, so it's not a secret anymore. If in that resentment I've hurt somebody, the next thing is to make amends quickly. If I've harmed anybody, then I resolutely turn my thoughts to someone I can help.

So I just wanted to share that with you. That Step 10 process has been a lifesaver and a game changer for me throughout these years of recovery, doing it all day, every day, all day, every day.

Heather: Okay. Does anyone have questions or comments that they have that they wanna throw our way? We can share our experience, but we are no experts. The question that was just asked was, how do you make it not a box? 'Cause I feel like it's a box. Not a triangle, that as you are getting closer together, you're just moving parallel, but, but getting closer to God, but not, not getting closer to each other. That is real. It's probably not been until recently that it's become more of a triangle.

Um, I think it's just time and healing. God can do anything, and trusting in that. I do think therapy can also be a helpful thing. Doing things as a couple, that redefinition that I kind of talked about, creating new traditions Creating new things that kind of connect you more.

Justin B.: An example of a new tradition that we've done. Okay. So I don't know how new this is, but I think it's a new way of looking at it. One of the things that we really love doing together now that I don't know that she always loved it was we love going to live sporting events. It could be junior high basketball where it's just brutal to watch. But we can enjoy it. Or it can be NHL playoff hockey.

And we just love doing these things together. And that's something that I think early on, she was just like, well, that's what he likes to do, so I'll just go along with him. Does that make sense?

Heather: Yeah, no, that's definitely been a change. Like, I love it now. I don't know why. I don't know if that answered your question, but that's kind of what I found. But it is real. It is real. And if, hey, if you're moving towards God, that's all that matters. Like, it'll, it'll figure itself out at some point. At some point, that box will click into place. Anybody else? Yeah, please. The comment that's being made is pointing us back to the circle model, and specifically the one for a healthy healing marriage, and that the outside the ring things are the things that help us come more to that point.

And those are worship together, support one another in separate interests, even Healthy physical and emotional intimacy, recreate together, and then inside even pray for each other, building trust, honest about emotions and needs, healthy boundaries, humble transparency, empathetic. I think praying for each other was one of the things that we were told, like, by our— by the person that married us, which was his grandfather. He had said you need to pray together every night, and that was something we did, and we even did it through the yuck.

Even though I didn't want to. And there were times when I said, I'm not praying. And he was like, okay, I'll pray. I'm like, go for it. And I, you know, and I would just sit there. But I think that really helped anchor us in those moments to God. And I, that's a great answer. I think that's exactly without realizing that's what we've done. That's probably what has started bringing that point together. So thank you.

Justin B.: Any other question? We got 2 minutes. Questions or comments? Snide remarks? All right. I just want to thank each of you for being here. And the invitation that I have for you is if there was something that we shared, something that you heard, whether we said it or not, the whispering that came into your mind that said, hey, you need to look at this. Don't just let that go. It is so important to act on what you know.

The thing that was whispered to you is something— it's a new piece of knowledge for you. Or maybe it's been something whispered to you a million times before, but you heard it again, this time louder. Act on it. Don't let it go. The action is where the healing happens. It's not in the thinking about it. It's in the doing it. And that's my, that's my experience, strength, and hope.

Heather: I just want to share, I'm grateful to be here and I'm grateful for your comment because I'm realizing that is exactly something I needed to Recognize and focus more on these as we continue to heal our marriage. I mean, I put the slides together and I didn't even notice that when I was doing it. And doing those things will help. And it takes time. That's the hardest answer, is the time. But it's worth the time and it's worth the effort.

And I'm just grateful that God, my higher power, has guided me in that. and had had me stay. I will tell you, I prayed many a time, can I leave? Can this just be done? And every time the answer was to stay. And I was like, okay. And sometimes I was really happy about that answer. I was like, okay, yeah, that sounds way easier right now. And other times I was mad. But for me, that was the healing path.

Everybody's healing path looks different. For some, it's to leave. But either way, the healing's gonna happen. And I'm grateful for that, to know that God has all power and create beauty from ashes. So that's my share. Thanks.

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