Finding Qualified Therapy and Education For Sex Addiction and Betrayal Trauma Recovery w/ Courtney Weaver

Narrator: This is Pathway to Recovery, an SA Lifeline Foundation podcast featuring hosts Tara McCausland, who is the SA Lifeline Executive Director, and Justin B., a sex addict living in long-term recovery. We have conversations with experts and individuals who understand the pathway to healing from sexual addiction and betrayal trauma because we believe that recovering individuals leads to the healing of families.

Jonathan L.: Welcome to the Pathway to Recovery Podcast. I am your host, Jonathan L. And I am happy to be here today with our guest, Courtney. Courtney comes with a special set of skills and experiences. And Courtney, before we get into our topic, would you mind introducing yourself a little bit? Help us understand where you're coming from and what your expertise are.

Courtney Weaver: Yeah, I'm glad to be here today. So my expertise, I'm a licensed master social worker working with individuals with sexual addiction and betrayal trauma. I also know this realm a little bit from personal experience, and so that gives me a little bit of an insight into how partners feel and the hardships that they face.

Jonathan L.: So you've got the background, the experience, and then also a lot of expertise in the sense of you understand the counseling aspect, the working with folks who are going through these kinds of things. So I'm excited because today's topic that we're focusing on is part of the recovery puzzle we haven't gotten to yet. Part of it is because I've been looking for a guest who actually could speak really strongly to these topics. So thank goodness that you were recommended for this, 'cause I need your help.

But specifically what we're talking about today is how do we find quality education and a really good therapist or find qualified therapy? This topic is something that I know a lot of people start to question, wonder about. What's the best approach? So I have a couple questions for you and hopefully you can help us along this path here. This is kind of the more technical stuff of recovery. So let's get into that. So the first thing that I kind of wanna look at is members are supposed to seek out a therapist.

And what I hear a lot is that people should be looking for like a CSAT. That's the CSAT, Certified Sex Addiction Therapist. I've also heard the acronym APSATAS. That one's really long. It's the Association of Partners. Yeah. Of sex addicts, trauma specialists. They have licenses. There's all this alphabet on here. Can you help me?

Courtney Weaver: Yeah. So many acronyms, so many letters. Yeah. So it's, there's a few different organizations that do training in those, and you're describing 2 different organizations. One's called an APSAT and their primary training is in betrayal trauma. And so a CSAT is a certified sex addiction therapist. And they are trained under the Patrick Carnes modality. He created a whole modality. There's also a CPTT, Certified Partner Trauma Therapist, who's, which is betrayal trauma. And then there's the CBIRT. It's a couples trauma, betrayal trauma and sex addiction therapist.

So there's a few different licenses. It's, it's extra training that people get. So.

Jonathan L.: How— look, breaking this down, what would you point people to look for? How do you make the decision of which kind of therapist to go see?

Courtney Weaver: Well, it depends on what you need. So if you're a betrayed spouse, you can really go with anybody because the certified sex addiction therapist or a CSAT has betrayal trauma training within it. They do 30 hours just on betrayal trauma, and then they do couples as well. So it's 120 hours of training total for a CSAT. And then the APSATs, if you're a betrayed partner, then they're gonna only do betrayal trauma. And so if you're a sex addict, that's not gonna be the option for you.

You're gonna wanna go to a CSAT for that. So you kind of have to go, which one? I mean, on the website, what's cool is like Psychology Today or their websites are gonna show what their training is. And it's going to spell it out for you. So you don't have to remember all the acronyms. Okay.

Jonathan L.: That's helpful, especially for people who are just dealing with the emotional weight and all of the, everything that's just happened. The search for a therapist seems kind of overwhelming in and of itself, right? As I've been reading through the material, the book, it talks about providing a list of questions to members, helping them evaluate a potential therapist. So let's say you go on, you find a website, you find they have the right search. You're looking over this.

Which questions do you feel like are most critical for a newcomer to ask during their first session with a therapist to kind of get that right fit feel? Like, how do you really evaluate a therapist?

Courtney Weaver: Yeah, that's always the hard part, right? Figuring out if they're the right ones. I would say the first thing is, do you jive with the therapist? Like, do you feel comfortable? And there's gonna be that awkward, like, are they gonna judge me first impression, right? Like, I think everybody feels that when they first come in. I really like the questions on the SA Lifeline Foundation page. Really, the first 4 questions are really great, especially what is your perspective on the effects of pornography use on individuals and relationships?

Because if someone doesn't realize pornography creates betrayal trauma, as a therapist, then they're going to be telling you different things and not necessarily the most helpful things. And then understanding the difference between sexual behaviors and, and those impacts. So the other thing to consider is, do they know about betrayal trauma? And so asking clarifying questions, because if they don't understand or recognize or even have the training for betrayal trauma, then they're gonna go off of a codependency modality.

Mm-hmm. Which is harmful for the partner. And so I recommend asking specifically of, do you know what betrayal trauma is and its impact on someone? And if they're like, I don't know what betrayal trauma is, just run. Like, say, go find a different therapist. And that is for the addicts as well. If your therapist doesn't understand betrayal trauma, then they're going to be giving you advice and old research modalities, which aren't gonna be helpful for your healing, especially in your relationship.

Jonathan L.: You mentioned this term modalities. Can you break that down for me for like the layman? Help me understand it from a Neanderthal perspective.

Courtney Weaver: Modalities are basically how therapists start to address different concerns. CBT or cognitive behavioral therapy is one way to address addiction. It's not the only way. And then you have lots of different other types, but it's how we look at different things and where our lens is when we're talking to people. And so we're always looking, at least I have 2 different modes on in my brain. One is going, I'm listening and reflecting and understanding what someone is saying.

And the other one is like a little detective that goes, okay, what's underneath this problem? What are we doing? And like, why is this going on? And so then I can go from there and go, oh, I could go and think about behaviors, or I could go and think about trauma or different things. And so it has layers to it. So it's how we treat different things.

Jonathan L.: Got it. That makes sense. It's almost the treatment methodology, right? That's this modality.

Courtney Weaver: Yes. Yeah. Yeah.

Jonathan L.: Very cool. Now I'm informed. So we're talking about, do you know what betrayal trauma is? Was a really big one that you mentioned on there. Yes. Are there any other questions that we didn't discuss that you think would be good to ask a therapist?

Courtney Weaver: I think asking if they recognize sex addiction as an addiction. In this community, if you're not trained as like a CSAT, then oftentimes it's not taught in grad school. So in our master's programs, it's not really taught. I had one class on addictions and that was it. And one day was on sex addiction, but it wasn't called an addiction. It was called compulsive sexual behavior. And so asking if the therapist recognizes it as an addiction is very helpful and something that people should consider.

Jonathan L.: Yeah, I can see how all of that aligns with, are we going to go in the right direction? Right. I can imagine that having a therapist who has a different view of that would then kind of not jive with I'm doing this 12-step work that's telling me these are behaviors that I don't wanna continue. Meanwhile, my therapist is like, I don't think that's the real reason we're here. We're not gonna talk much about that. It doesn't seem to help much.

Courtney Weaver: It creates disconnection in treatment, really.

Jonathan L.: Yeah. In our book, it talks about how session work and step work are elements that complement each other. It says beautifully, which I hope that's the case for people. So how can members, people who are going through both of these types of work, ensure that their therapy and their 12-step work remain complementary rather than like competitive or contradictory?

Courtney Weaver: Yeah. So I like to have clients bring in their step work at times. If they're working on a step 1 or a step 4 especially, then like bring it in and we can discuss it and I can help like point more things out that they need to work on. 'Cause it's great working with a sponsor, but when you're working with a therapist, they're really there to Help guide you into seeing why you're doing the things you're doing. So if you're lashing out in anger, it's like the therapist is there to find the root of the problem.

And so that may be part of your step 4, but I'm here to say, what is under this? Where did you learn this in childhood? So it's similar but different. It's a deeper level. I haven't really seen it as competitive or contradictory, like in the sense of actually working the steps. I have seen it with like sponsors. Yeah. Giving different advice than a therapist would. Um, and I think it's important for each individual to take the group members' advice and their therapist's advice and say, what is right for me in my journey?

Because therapists can be wrong and group members can be wrong. It's just individual. And to bring that into the session and to go, this is what I'm being told and it doesn't feel right for me, or this is, does feel right. We just have to figure it out together.

Jonathan L.: Yeah. Really like that. There's something that I, in a lot of the rooms that I've been in and also in discussion with others where they've said that sometimes sponsors who will say, I don't know about that. That seems like therapist territory to me. I've had some sponsors say that to me, but I almost wonder, maybe have you ever thought about that or is there any perspective you have on like, where would one typically draw the line between, 'cause you said it's a deeper thing when you work in a session, but But for some of the sponsors out there, when's a good time to defer to a therapist as opposed to trying to be the therapist sponsor?

Does that make sense?

Courtney Weaver: Yeah, cuz a sponsor isn't a therapist. I would say when it comes to relationships specifically, like should I leave or should I go type of thing, I think that's a deeper conversation and understanding both sides that should be deferred to a therapist. And then I think anytime we're getting into trauma work and stuff like that, we know with this addiction and with betrayal trauma, there's so much trauma just all around. Yeah. It really needs to be given to a therapist to help weed that out.

But regarding step work, I think that's great for sponsors and other group members. Surrenders is great, but anytime there's deeper trauma and why we're going to the addiction, I think needs to be done with a therapist.

Jonathan L.: And that's honestly probably some of the most concrete advice I've been given. I got similar advice once from my therapist, but I like the way you put it. I wanna kind of address this cuz you did talk a bit about surrendering and how that's a great thing for 12 steps. So like while the 12 steps teach us how to surrender, you've noted that a therapist helps us understand what we need to surrender, right? In that realm, have you noticed in your experience, is it typically just like the trauma?

Is it typically, I mean, how does therapy help? synergize with our step work in order to know what to surrender and the methods for that?

Courtney Weaver: I honestly teach all of my clients the surrender process. It's such a beautiful process because it's really understanding what we can't control and letting it go. And so a therapist is there to understand the obsessions and the ruminations within the brain, right? And we follow that train down to unhealthy thinking patterns and behaviors. And then we point that out in therapy. Therapists are trained to help clients regulate in session. And so if you're following an unhealthy thinking pattern, usually there's something heavy behind it, right?

And so we're trained to bring 'em back to a normal regulatory level. And so the obsessions and the ruminations is what the therapists are there to help clients then to be able to surrender. Yeah. On their own throughout the week.

Jonathan L.: Yeah, I like that. It gives real meat to the idea of how do I actually dig my fingers in and get something that I can grab hold on and say, this is what I need to surrender, right? Like actually grab hold of it. I know when I'm working with someone as a sponsor or when I've been sponsored, it's, uh, you need to surrender that. Here's the process. But the actual identification process of like, what is the trauma?

What is the wrong? What is the hard that's happening? And how do I Actually really grab it and surrender it. Yeah. I think therapy is probably one of the better sources to get to that. There's a term belief systems. So there's belief systems and then there's past traumas. Can you explain how therapy actually helps uncover these belief systems and past traumas, especially the ones that are impeding members' progress in the steps? Like as we're doing the pathway to recovery here, what is it about therapy that helps us see these belief systems and these past traumas?

Courtney Weaver: A therapist can usually figure out where the behaviors are coming from because we see the patterns as they come. I like to say this, I probably got it from a training somewhere, that behind every behavior is just a coping skill that was created to protect. Most addicts that I see have very similar stories, not the same, but similar. So I saw porn at a young age. I didn't feel attached to parents. I didn't know how to handle emotions.

And that porn never rejected. And some people don't have like the big traumas of abuse. There are patterns from childhood that need to be resolved in order to like find true recovery. 'Cause if we're working the steps and don't know where the underlying traumas are, then it's really hard to find recovery. If we don't face those demons or patterns from childhood, sometimes it's just the pattern that we learned. And it's gonna resurface and progress. And then progress is stalled because we don't know where this pattern is coming from.

Typically I see it stall out around step 4 because that's where you really start digging. Step 1, you lay out and say, this is everything I've done, right? For an addict. And step 1, 2, and 3 is the surrender process, at least on the women's side. And then step 4 is where you dig into your unhealthy behaviors, unhealthy coping strategies. And so that's usually where it stalls out. And I think that's because we have to figure out where they're coming from before we can surrender them, like truly surrender them and truly figure out how to change them based on where they came from.

Jonathan L.: It reminds me of something I once heard early on. I had a therapist and we worked for 2 years. Excellent. experience. I loved it. And I remember one day when I was working, it's funny this lines up, I was working step 4 and going through very similar discussions with my therapist. And the point came up where this individual shared with me that I need to recognize the young me, the one who was defensive, the one who was trying to protect self, and almost confront him maybe in like a mental capacity and say, you don't have to try so hard to defend yourself anymore because now I'm a grownup and we can use healthy patterns, right?

Yeah. That value in therapy is huge. I can hear it as you're saying it, like it's big.

Courtney Weaver: Underneath it all is just a scared little child that needs love and to be held, to be truthful. And I see it time and time again where, you know, I've got grown men that were in the military for 20 years and underneath it all is this child that needs to be loved and cared for. And that's where the compassion comes in, I think, for us being able to see, like therapists being able to see the inner child that just needs to be comforted.

Jonathan L.: I think uncovering that child who needs all that protection is such a, that's a big work. And hearing this, you deal with all the time. It's a lot.

Courtney Weaver: But it's beautiful when it comes out. It's beautiful when you can see the breakthrough. And you can see that like, yeah, they see the inner child that needs to be comforted and they can do it. That's the beauty of it.

Jonathan L.: This is another thing that comes up a lot in discussion, and I would love to approach it from both sides because it's a big topic, but there's the full therapeutic disclosure. In the men's groups, it's a huge milestone. We have lots of calls around and lots of discussions. Some people, a lot of people who go through this process, elect to do this full therapeutic disclosure. In your experience, what is that? What does it look like and how do you facilitate something like that?

Courtney Weaver: Yeah, so it's multi-stepped, I should say, and it's not just the addict sharing everything. That's the first step. The second step is then the betrayed spouse writing what's called an impact letter. So it's saying, here's how everything has impacted me. And then the third step is the addict writing what's called a restitution letter. And that's saying like, I'm recognizing the trauma and the harm that I've caused. Mm-hmm. And here's how I'm trying to repair it or make a restitution.

It's one, it's disclosure of all events that have happened up until that date with just enough detail, but not too much detail. Okay. So it's a happy medium. We don't want too much detail because it can cause more trauma for the spouse and we want to minimize that trauma.

Jonathan L.: So I'm already seeing that this would be tricky to do without a qualified therapist. She already talked a little bit about some nuances with this. Why is it so important to do this with a qualified therapist?

Courtney Weaver: We want to mitigate trauma. So oftentimes there's something called the staggered disclosure. And so basically it's the couple, you know, the addict coming and saying, hey, I've done this. And then a week later, hey, I've done this too. And a day later, hey, I've done this too. And so it really feels like death by a thousand cuts. And oftentimes the addict is going, I've gotten it all off my chest type of thing. And the betrayed spouse is going, but I'm dying.

Bleeding out. If you don't do it with a therapist, oftentimes what I've seen is it feels disconnecting for the couple, whereas with doing it with a trained therapist that has training in this specific area, when done correctly, it is a pivotal point in reconnection for the couple. And most couples feel that it was healing rather than disconnecting. That's why it's just key to have a qualified therapist that knows how to structure this disclosure and make sure there's not too much detail.

Hopefully that there's all the truth and we don't have to do another disclosure. Hopefully everything comes out. And usually, if done correctly, it's healing rather than disconnecting. And that's what we want. We want couples to heal.

Jonathan L.: And I'm sure the aspect of mediating is a huge part of it too, cuz 2 people who are both emotionally unstable trying to organize that seems like a circus.

Courtney Weaver: Yeah. Well, it's actually done with 2 therapists and both partners, so that's best practice. It's hard with scheduling and everything, but best practice is you have the betrayed spouse's therapist and the addict's therapist in the room together so that they can both focus on their client so that the betrayed spouse's therapist can look for trauma and really regulate trauma, and the addict's counselor can look for shame and make sure that there's not shutdown and we're not missing things in the disclosure.

And then they usually separate and the betrayed spouse usually does some calming things with their therapist afterwards to make sure we're leaving regulated and not in high, high trauma.

Jonathan L.: That sounds actually incredibly beneficial. I think something that we're really hitting on here, actually, like therapy is really good, but like if you don't have the education or understanding that this even exists, it's very difficult to find the right place to be. I know, and I've shared this in previous episodes of my own story, but I had an initial disclosure that was just, it shattered the world and we were very alone in it because we didn't know anyone.

It wasn't publicly known for anyone we knew who had the same problem as us. And we didn't know who to go to. And it wasn't until years later when we had a second one and we met someone who'd been in SAL for 7-ish years previously, they got me introduced and we met a therapist and everything worked then, right? Like that was magic. But yeah, first time did not work. This quality education aspect. Like what quality education in this space, how's it different than just gathering information online about addiction?

What would be the target of a quality education?

Courtney Weaver: Yeah. If we're talking about therapist-wise, really looking into what their trainings are. If we're looking into what individuals can do on their own, obtaining information that is like research-based versus people's opinions on Reddit. Mm-hmm. It's not quality education. That's, it's not research-based, it's not informed. It's just people spewing stuff. So yeah, I, I say podcasts are good. That would be quality education if they're qualified in this area, in this realm. And then making sure that you're reading research, going to SA Lifeline, they have tons of resources.

So really finding your resources that are research-based there. I like research, so. 'Cause it shows us more than just opinion. It's fact. Yeah.

Jonathan L.: Do you specifically have any resources that you typically recommend to your clients or to people in general, just trying to start learning about this? Any thoughts?

Courtney Weaver: Yeah. The Human Intimacy Podcast or Human Intimacy. It's done by Dr. Skinner and Marianne Michaels, who's an LCSW. CSAT, CPTT, like she has a lot of letters behind her name. And I recommend that website because it has a lot of like, like curriculum type things. And then I do recommend SAL 12 Step and SA Lifeline for a lot of information, just because like the curriculum's great and it can point you in the right direction of where to ask for things.

And the library is really great on SA Lifeline.

Jonathan L.: So we talked about this being a resource, but like, as you've watched people come in and use SAL 12-step, how have you seen that that's actually helping them to form a basis of education to really get working? Like, how is SAL different than anything else?

Courtney Weaver: Therapists have an hour with clients a week, right? Or 45 minutes, right? And so the 12 steps It builds a community, and that is key. Addiction cannot thrive in a community setting, and it helps with vulnerability. And we know shame, the antidote to shame is vulnerability. And so the 12 steps helps get that shame out. Working the 12 steps is a tool outside of therapy to be doing something every day, and it helps you dig into your defects and have connections with others that really start to point out your behaviors and the trauma that you're experiencing.

And so it really starts the digging. I see a huge difference between my clients that come in for 1 hour a week and attend group maybe once a week, but don't reach out and don't work the steps. I see a difference in relapses versus those that jump into the 12 steps and jump into reaching out. And jump into doing the things in therapy and working, they have a higher recovery rate. If the answer is, what can I do?

The answer is yes, do it all. Because that's where you find recovery.

Jonathan L.: Jump right in. I love that.

Courtney Weaver: Just do it.

Jonathan L.: It works when I work it. So work it. You're worth it, right? The whole, if you do it, it'll work, right? Yep. I know a good handful of folks who live all over the place, and for some of them it's super easy. to find a therapist who's qualified and has all the right letters behind their name. And in some places it's a lot harder. What other resources can they kind of cling to as they're working through this, trying to get the therapy?

Courtney Weaver: I would say look online for therapists. Don't be afraid to go online because there's so many that can do telehealth and it's a good option for rural communities. I work in East Idaho and there's only like 4 of us in East Idaho. So it's really hard to find a qualified therapist, but telehealth can be a really great option. The other thing is I do point people to SAL online curriculum. It can guide you into boundaries and increase awareness into those areas that need to be addressed.

With knowledge, we gain power. And so we can't do better until we know better. And so starting anywhere is better than nowhere. Find some podcasts, talk to your church leaders. They might have resources as well, and you might find a community within that. You might find 10 people that you're like, oh, you have this issue too? Like, and they're gonna have lots of resources. But I know waiting for therapy, qualified therapy, can be obnoxious. And so yeah, podcasts, curriculum.

Yeah. Anything you can get your hands on.

Jonathan L.: I love that. And it goes back to your jumping in idea. I also really want a shirt that says, I can't do better till I know better. Yeah. Courtney, this has been actually a lot of fun. I think there's a lot of really good information here. Before I kind of let you go, I have 2 questions I always ask people when they come on. If someone is just showing up to this, uh, I like to call it the best party you never want to be a part of.

If someone's just showing up into recovery, What would be something you would say to them to encourage them or help them along?

Courtney Weaver: You know, this often happens with clients showing up and I say, take a deep breath. You're not alone. We've got you. This is a place for love and support and no judgment. So jump in. We've got you. Love that.

Jonathan L.: The other one is for someone who has been in these programs for quite some time, and I've known a few of them. I myself am one of them who've been around for a while and we get to a state of contentedness or it's just kind of routine. I mean, what kind of stuff would you say to someone who's been around for a bit and maybe there's a bit of disillusionment sinking in or what have you? I mean, what would you say to that person?

Courtney Weaver: I think it would depend on the person, of course, but for the addict, I would say when you stall your recovery, you're actually going backwards. When you stop working it, you're risking relapse, maybe not a physical relapse, but a relapse in the way you approach others. And really true recovery, like recovery mindset that is talked about. For the betrayed spouse, I would say keep working it because there's trauma that is gonna continually be uncovered and you need a support system no matter what, because things are going to come up whether you're married or not.

You stay in a relationship, divorced, whatever, there's still gonna be things that you need support. Yeah. And so keep showing up. You're gonna keep learning new things about yourself. I learned something new about myself last week. It's like that wasn't there before and it was there. It was just a new layer. And so I think as humans, we're onions and we have to keep peeling 'em back and discovering the new us every day. So keep coming back.

Oh, keep coming back. It works when you work it. It's worth it.

Jonathan L.: You're worth it.

Courtney Weaver: Yeah. Like I think the men and women say it differently.

Jonathan L.: Maybe, maybe slightly different, but regardless, you are worth it. All of you. We're jumping all in and we're going to know better so we can do better. Thank you for joining us for this podcast. We'll keep working together and find hope and in our experience to keep walking this happy road to destiny. Thank you so much for listening today. Thank you.

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