Discussing and Preventing Pornography Use in Dating Relationships w/ Jill Manning

Narrator: This is Pathway to Recovery, an SA Lifeline Foundation podcast featuring hosts Tara McCausland, who is the SA Lifeline Executive Director, and Justin B., a sex addict living in long-term recovery. We have conversations with experts and individuals who understand the pathway to healing from sexual addiction and betrayal trauma because we believe that recovering individuals leads to the healing of families. Hey friends, before we get started, just a quick announcement.

Tara McCausland: Wanted to let you know that registration for the SAL 12-Step In-Person Conference, which will be held in Orem, Utah on April 18th, 2026, is available. And so if you are interested in coming, joining us for this live in-person event, We hope that you will go to sal12step.org, go and register, and here you'll be able to connect with others who are working SAL 12-step and find the power and healing in community. So we hope that you'll join us again, April 18th in Orem, Utah.

Go to sal12step.org to register. Welcome to the Pathway to Recovery Podcast. I am your host, Tara McCausland. I'm so thrilled to have here Dr. Jill Manning, my friend. I think I can legitimately call you my friend, right? Yeah, absolutely. Um, so briefly, I wanted to introduce Dr. Jill Manning. For over 2 decades, Dr. Jill Manning has been recognized as a thought leader, clinician, speaker, and researcher in the field of sexual betrayal, compulsive sexual behavior, and issues related to the impact of internet pornography on marriages and families.

Her diverse career has afforded her opportunities to be published in leading research journals, to testify before the US Senate about the harms of pornography, to be featured in popular podcasts, magazines, TV shows, and documentaries. Dr. Manning is a licensed marriage and family therapist and a certified clinical partner specialist with specialized expertise in helping individuals affected by sexual betrayal in their primary relationships. So again, so pleased to have you here with us, Dr. Menning. She's actually a member of our advisory board at SA Lifeline Foundation and, and someone that I've known for a number of years and one that I trust with a sensitive topic actually that we're going to be covering today, which is preventing pornography problems in relationships.

Jill, do you wanna just give us a snapshot of what we're gonna be discussing today?

Jill Manning: Sure. But it just really, it's an honor to be here and you're right. It is a sensitive topic because we're getting into dating and love and romance and just strong feelings in all directions with this on both sides of it. The person that may be struggling with pornography issues and the person dating and loving and caring or potentially loving someone. So of course we can't prevent behavior in someone else, but I think our conversation, I'm hoping, can empower and clarify and just give some guiding principles for those that are dating, that are not married, that are navigating the dating landscape when this topic of pornography use is so rampant.

And I first want to say that I'm approaching this topic without judgment. I really could see how people struggling with pornography use and those, you know, dating or caring for someone, it's going to be really easy to get offended in this conversation, even though I know, Tara, you and I, that is not our goal. That is not the intent of this. And so if something is shared today that may evoke a strong response or disagreement, that's okay.

My goal in sharing and talking today is not to convince or have people agree, but to share openly and frankly things that I've learned as a clinician of 26 years in this space, uh, and that I also learned and experienced personally and just give some, I hope, helpful guidance with that.

Tara McCausland: Yeah. And recognizing the audience that is listening, most of the folks who are with us are those who are dealing with pornography and sex addiction in their relationship, and hopefully they're working on their recovery. There may be a sense of, well, woulda, shoulda, coulda, you know, and If we had had that conversation, would I have done something different? I just wanted to say, because I know who's listening, the reason why we're bringing this up is for the upcoming generation.

We're trying to give them tools. We're trying to equip them. I know a number of young adults who are saying, I'm so nervous to get into a committed relationship because of this issue. And so I think with education, it can take away some of the fear if we feel like we can go in prepared in how to navigate this issue, because it, it has to be on the table and we're going to get there. But if you're going to commit to someone, you need to have discussed this.

So you were single and dating while studying pornography in your PhD program at BYU. How did your research shape the standards you set for your own dating relationships?

Jill Manning: Great question. I was 30 years old when I started my PhD program. I was single. I'd come from Canada to Utah to do my doctoral work. And so that in and of itself, you know, there's just a lot of layers to unpack with that. But I knew when I was studying my PhD at Brigham Young University, I knew that this is what I was studying. And so there's going to be some nuance and differences to my experience than those who are not studying this topic.

Yeah. I realize, so I'll, I'll try to be sensitive to that. You know, for instance, I don't think this is a topic that one in most situations should bring up on a first date, but in my case, I really couldn't get around it. As soon as someone said, what are you studying? Boom, it was figuratively and literally on the table, right? So there are some differences, certainly, but new, early— let me back up. Yeah. For much of my life, people may be surprised to know that I really didn't have a strong stance about pornography.

I, for too long, and I'm embarrassed to admit this, really had quite a libertarian view of live and let live. I was quite ignorant on this subject and topic. I'd never researched it before. This is during my undergraduate studies. And That's how I proceeded. I don't remember once asking anyone, certainly a young man, about pornography. That, that, you know, I didn't grow up with the internet. By the time I graduated high school, internet was just coming onto the scene.

So this was not part of early dating for me, at least that I knew. When I came down to the United States to do my doctoral work, I had now practiced as a— I had finished my master's program in marriage and family therapy, and I had practiced for 3 years. Wow. In a school setting, private practice, in a community clinic. And through that clinical work, I was exposed to this young and old, married, single, religious, non-religious, the whole gamut.

And so I came to Utah with a lot of clarity that this is what I wanted to study. I wanted to know how to help people, particularly women that were impacted in primary relationships with this issue. So I came to the States very focused on this, and that naturally spilled over into my dating relationships. I was very clear within myself as a person and also as a professional that this was not something that I wanted in my relationship.

It was not something that was acceptable to me as a person. It did not align with my spiritual values or my personal values. And we're gonna talk about values later. So I was very clear on this and that clarity is something that I wish for a lot of people. I think getting really clear on what is my position, what do I understand about this without having to be an expert. Someone certainly does not have to do a PhD.

Please don't do a PhD in this to get clarity. Anybody can become clear on their value around this. But that clarity was a big asset to me, Tara, in that it did shape and influence questions that I would ask young men that had asked to go on dates or that I was interested in. Was it the first question I led with? Heavens no. But I just knew that given the research around how devastating this is to attachments and relationship and marital quality, And how it influences kids, that it was not something that on the outset I was willing to accept or give room to.

I just, it just was not in the cards. So that clarity was a gift and shaped questions that I asked and things that I really stood for and would vocalize of what I was wanting.

Tara McCausland: I appreciate that you share transparently beforehand, this, this wasn't always something that was a concern to you. No. And I think that's where the education piece comes in and is so important as we're moving into dating or looking at getting into a committed relationship. If we're not sure where we stand, get some education. And like you said, you don't have to get a PhD to understand the ins and outs of this. But, um, if that is you, please take some time to educate yourself about the effects of pornography on attachment, as you said, on relationships, on individuals, and then you can make an educated decision for yourself.

You don't even have to listen to us. But what's interesting, many young women, and I'm sure you've heard people say this in different contexts, they're told or they believe that all men look at pornography. This is just something that boys do and we have to accept it. And again, this is a part of the education piece, right? Is that true or not? And do we just have to accept it? But I'm curious, from both research and personal experience, is that actually true?

Jill Manning: No. Wholehearted no, it is not true. And let me say this very clearly. That assumption, that narrative, That all men look at porn. I find it so deeply offensive, both for men and for women. It's an equally equal offender type of narrative. It does damage to both sides. And let me explain, you know, to first struggles with pornography consumption is not exclusive to one gender. Men and women, males, females can struggle with looking at sexually explicit content starting from young ages all the way through the lifespan.

So I wanna make that really clear. And the messages and things we'll talk about today, Tara, I really do believe are equally applicable to young men. But you know, we're gonna talk in a more gender-segregated way. Well, maybe, maybe not. I do. I really believe that both young men and young women should be asking about this, should be educated about this, should be preventing these issues with themselves and be doing everything they can to prevent this in relationships.

So this is an equal topic for both sides, and that's an equally offending— offensive, rather— narrative. And so just at face value, I would say no, statistically. Yeah. I do not come across studies or research that says 100% of males are consuming this. I've not run into one study that says 100% of all males or all females are looking at this. So just statistically, not outside of my opinion or my clinical observation, it's just statistically not true. Is it common?

Sure. I think there's an argument that it is common, but common doesn't equate with normal and common doesn't mean healthy. Yeah. Or right. And even if it was everybody, that doesn't mean it's right for you. And that doesn't mean you have to accept it. So I think there's a big distinction between common, normal, everybody, you know, these things get clumped very quickly. And I think that's unfair for everybody. And it's damaging because men and women that are struggling with consumption, they will take that narrative.

Yeah. Of everybody looks at this, everybody's doing this as a permission-giving belief to enable to keep doing this and not get into recovery and stop. So it's damaging on that side. I've met plenty of people that I just thought this was normal. Guys do this locker room talk. You know, all my friends were really all of them. There's a pretty thin veneer to that. Did you ask every single one of your friends, were they all being honest with you or was there kind of a, groupthink of, I'm too scared to say I'm the only guy not looking at this.

So it's deeply damaging for those that are consuming. And I just see, especially with women, I see far too many lose themselves in that narrative, even though deep down, I meet a lot of people, Tara, they're like, I did not feel right about this. I was not okay with pornography use. But they allowed themselves, they self-abandoned in thinking that they had to go along to get along, or that they wouldn't be able to attract the person they wanted in their life unless they went along with this.

And I think that's just an incredibly destructive thing on so many levels. So a wholehearted no to that question. No, not everybody consumes pornography, male or female. Men and women can both struggle. And people, I really do encourage to be clear on what their own personal value and sexual ethic is around pornography and stay true to that. Don't self-abandon. Really hold onto that.

Tara McCausland: Yeah. Well, I really love that. Changing the narrative around everybody just does it, so I'm just going to accept, and how you put that, self-abandon. Any values or thoughts of discomfort around that idea because everybody's just doing it, so I should just accept it. So I, I think that's incredibly powerful. So thank you for sharing that. And you had just mentioned that it's important for young adults and youth— I think everyone, but we're talking specifically about people who are maybe in the, the dating phase of their life— and that they do need to get very clear on what their values are around pornography use.

So let's go there. Before dating someone seriously, what values should young single adults clarify for themselves that impact one's view on sexuality and pornography?

Jill Manning: There's a few directions we can take this. People are going to have different values, and even if they share the same value, there will be different ways to live that value. So I wanna be clear that I by no means see myself as the values police, or it's not my place to tell people what they should value, but I would invite and encourage people to consider and spend some time, especially if you're in a dating phase of your life, what are the values that are most important to me?

How do I want those values to influence who and why and how I'm going about dating? Values generally are like roadmaps, right? They're like inner compasses that help direct us to our North Star, if you will. I do encourage people to clarify, what is my sexual ethic? You know, what, what do I believe sexuality is? How important, what place, what role does that have in my life? Now, I'm not leading out with that, Tara, because I think Sex generally, or sexuality should be the leading value.

I don't believe that, but I think when it comes to a sexual topic like pornography, too few people spend time to clarify, what do I hope it will mean in a relationship one day? What is okay and not okay in that space? So I'm leading out with this because we're discussing a sexual topic of pornography, not because I think that needs to be the top value that determines or shapes one's dating. Certainly not. But for me personally, to give an example of this, I believe that sexuality is a life-enriching, life-giving— it's a power, it's a force.

And with that view, and I own this as my own view, I'm not saying people have to share the same view, but this informs how I view pornography because I see pornography as a very destructive force. And I don't believe that anyone, including myself, that something that is intended and designed to be life-giving and enhancing, I don't believe that I have the right to ever do harm sexually to another person or to myself. So with that, getting clear on that, that informs a lot of how I approach pornography.

It's riddled with exploitation. misogyny, racism, trafficking. So it's the antithesis of my sexual ethic around, I believe this is a force and power in life that is intended to be enriching and positive and life-giving, not taking away and exploitative. So do you see how it's not just enough to just say, I'm against pornography, for instance? Why? To go deeper and really clarify what are my values around that? Now, another really important value It becomes super important, especially when someone's been betrayed, and that is honesty and integrity.

Not everybody, I've been surprised at where people fall on that spectrum. Not everybody believes that you should be completely, fully honest and open with a partner. And even if you do, when is it appropriate to be fully honest and open with a partner? You know, where in the dating spectrum of first meeting to engagement, let's say. When and why is it appropriate to be fully honest or how honest? You know, how deep does one go with that?

There's a lot to be clarified. So I apologize if I'm annoying listeners giving more questions than answers here, Tara. There's literally hundreds of values that people can choose from, Tara. I just invite people to clarify what would be the top 5, top 10 values that mean the most to them? And how do they want those values to shape their dating life with questions they would ask or standards they would set? Now, another really key point that I want to share about values is I wanna share a quote from a research study.

And this is a research study that there were several researchers on this. This is a 2008 study regarding pornography. Dr. Jason Carroll at Brigham Young University was the lead researcher. So I'll attribute this to him. And this is a quote. I'll, I'm going to read it twice. And it says, pornography should be regarded as much as a value stance or a personal sexual ethic as it is a behavioral pattern. Pornography acceptance was a stronger correlate with permissive sexuality, alcohol use, binge drinking, and cigarette smoking than was actual pornography use.

Okay, I'm going to read this again. Pornography should be regarded as much as a value stance or a personal sexual ethic as it is a behavioral pattern. Pornography acceptance was a stronger correlate with permissive sexuality, alcohol use, binge drinking, and cigarette smoking than was actual pornography use. What does this mean? This is like research speak, right? One, there's several things that's communicating, but one thing that stands out to me is even if you don't consume pornography, but your values and personal sexual ethics are such that you think that's okay, it will have correlations and connections and associations to a range of behaviors just beyond pornography use itself.

Yeah. Yeah. That, that's really something, right? So again, if even if someone doesn't consume pornography themselves, but what are their views and values around that? It will shape other behaviors and things that they're permissive and okay with. I think that's really pretty powerful and remarkable to think about. When I would work at the university clinic during my doctoral studies, It really stood out to me when I would meet young women, especially that, and, you know, bear with me with this story, but I, this happened several times at the university clinic where I'd meet young women that would almost be hyperventilating around finding out that a dating partner had had a beer or had smoked a cigarette, but were— May not like that they found out their partner consumed pornography, But they were willing to work with that and tolerate that.

And well, it's okay. All guys look at this. They were willing to work with that. And to me, I think that revealed some really interesting blind spots. Yeah. This gets back to values of why would beer or smoking, for instance, be more offensive or a deal breaker for certain people? I'm not saying all, Then pornography, which at its core is objectifying and exploiting of women and men. And if we look at the research, is far more detrimental to relationships than certain types of drinking or smoking, certainly in their extreme.

But my office is not run over by people divorcing, Tara, because of a smoking habit. I have certainly met relationships destroyed by excessive and addictive drinking. Yes. But to have a beer, these young women were not talking about alcoholism or addiction to alcohol, but that, that their ethic and value was such that they believed that was a bigger deal breaker than pornography use. So fascinating. I mean, we could talk about that for a long time. There's a lot to unpack there.

Again, my invitation encouragement is for each person to get educated and understand for themselves, what is your personal value about pornography? How well do you want that to influence dating relationships? And how are you going to voice and communicate that? Because it's not enough to just keep that quiet. You mean the— I do believe, and it sounds like you do as well, Tara, this is a topic that really does need to be discussed. Yeah. between dating partners.

I full-heartedly agree with that, but it's hard to discuss something when we haven't taken time to get clear on where we stand.

Tara McCausland: Well, such an interesting story. Thank you for sharing that, because again, we're, we're so entrenched in this cultural narrative of everybody's just doing this. And so going back to the previous question, right? Like, does everybody look at porn? Well, the stats don't say that. And even if everybody did, is that something you wanna accept? Understanding that it is exploitative, it is abuse on film, right?

Jill Manning: And it's digital prostitution.

Tara McCausland: Right. There's nothing of true committed love in pornography. I don't believe anybody wants that in their relationship. And yet as a culture, as a society, we've thrown our hands up in the air and said, I guess everybody's doing it. I won't fight against it. And I, so I just wanted to hit on that point again, because as you had shared that example of these women freaking out about a beer or a cigarette, but shrugging their shoulders at porn use, for the lack of something more articulate, that's totally screwed up.

Jill Manning: It is. Well, and to build off this idea, one of the most common things that I hear people say when they discover secretive pornography use in a, it's certainly a Well, not even in early marriage, but I've heard people at various lengths of marriage say the same thing. They'll say, Jill, I had no idea when he told me that he struggled or looked at pornography when we were dating or early in marriage, I had no idea the gravity or magnitude of what that meant.

Yeah. So one of the most important things that I can convey today in terms of preventing problems with this in our lives is to get educated, read, look up what are the harms of pornography use? What does the research say about pornography and relationship satisfaction and longevity? It's not good. We know from certain studies that this increases the risk of separation divorce by 200%, and that's not even when it hits an addictive level, just general pornography consumption.

And there was a study that came out in 2023 that said regardless of religion, regardless of age, all these different factors they were looking at, that across the board, pornography use led to relationship dissatisfaction. It had negative outcomes for relationships. And the researchers said, look, no matter what your values or views on this are, you would do well to avoid pornography use in a relationship if you want a secure, long-lasting, satisfying relationship. They do not go together.

And the famous John and Julie Gottman, the Gottman Institute, world famous, one of the biggest research centers in the world looking at relationships. They wrote an open letter in, I believe, 2016. You can look it up online. It's openly and publicly available. And they said, you know, as researchers and as clinicians that care deeply about relationships, I'm paraphrasing, you know, we feel a need to speak out clearly that we do not believe pornography is conducive to happy, satisfying relationships.

Again, I digress, but I'm encouraging people to don't be the person that says, I had no idea what this meant. I knew I needed to ask the question. Great. Ask the question before you're married or engaged, certainly. But when you get an answer that says some version of, yeah, I've looked at it, or I am looking at it, or I struggle with this, Pause, slow down, really get clear on what that means. You're gonna have to ask your partner, your dating partner, a lot more questions, and we'll get to that more in a few minutes.

But don't brush that off. I think that that's the danger zone right there is people brush it off or they get thinking, oh, well, once we're married, he won't be doing that. He won't need to do that because we'll have a sexual relationship in a marriage. That is one of the most dangerous things someone can think with this. Yeah. So the education is, we can't stress that enough, taking time to clarify your own values and stance and be true to that, be authentic, don't self-betray.

Tara McCausland: Great counsel. Well, so we've talked about why we ought to bring this up, but then there's the actual nuts and bolts of bringing this up, which can be really challenging. So What would you say, like when and how should someone bring up pornography in dating without it feeling like accusatory or super awkward?

Jill Manning: Yeah. And those last 2, you know, accusatory or awkward are keywords there. And so I, I did this and I encourage others to do this. I wouldn't lead out with that topic, you know, practice with something that feels like lower hanging fruit. You know, maybe a controversial topic or something that is important to you, but it's not a deal breaker and get into some meaningful conversations. You know, is this— I think something like this that really gets so personal very quickly, it can bring up a lot of shame.

It could bring up a lot of fear. I think you want some level of trust established. You want— I wouldn't lead out with this. It's actually— Yeah. not someone's business. If someone goes on a first date, they're just meeting someone. I think it actually shows a lack of boundary to jump into these heavy-duty topics and you're asking someone to bare their soul, that there's actually a lack of boundary in that. It's, that's not someone's business right off the bat.

But if you're starting to get to know someone, there is a desire to get to know someone more deeply, You're feeling some trust and attraction. You're not fully committed to someone, but you're starting to feel, hey, there's something here and I'm interested and I'd like to see and explore what, what this could, could turn into. I think at that point to bring this up, but as I said, practice with some other topics. And I don't even want to give examples because whatever examples I give, Maybe like huge topics, but I'm just going to throw one out there.

Like, you know, someone's views on capital punishment or choose something that's like, I mean, the chances of that person actually being directly affected by capital punishment, I think would be probably statistically rather small. But if someone has like, hey, I really do want to know what this person's views are on this, try out some lower hanging fruit topics first of like practicing and engaging and seeing, can someone even engage? Like, a topic that has more meat on the bones and involves value clarification, right?

It's a topic about faith, or maybe it's a topic about family generally. I don't know. People can choose what is meaningful for them, but practice before you get to a topic like pornography. With that said, I wouldn't delay it. I wouldn't wait, oh, I need months of practice doing other topics because I'm avoidant or nervous or scared to bring this up. It takes courage. I think it's an awkward topic no matter how you bring that up.

Here I was studying to normalize this. Here I was a PhD student. I was a licensed clinician in marriage and family therapy, Tara. I was in my early 30s. I wasn't in my 20s or teens dating and navigating this topic. And it's an awkward topic. And so I want to normalize and validate. But just because it's a heavy topic doesn't mean we should avoid it because I've met people that have avoided it. And then this issue came out later and talk about uncomfortable then, right?

Then, then we're at a whole other level of discomfort and awkwardness when we're realizing we've been betrayed or deciding if the relationship or marriage is viable at that point. So it takes courage. That you can do it. And it is a valuable thing to bring up early on, but not in first couple of dates. Now, I, as I shared earlier, I was at advantage/disadvantage. There was no way of me hiding this because this is what I was studying.

And I met young men, you know, I went on a variety of dates and when that would come up, I, my personal experience, Tara, was I had young men whose faces would go as red as tomatoes. Yeah. Even just me sharing what I was studying, I hadn't even asked them a personal question about it focused on them. And I had men that, you know, all the blood left the first top half of their body. They went white as ghosts.

I paid attention to those signs. And actually the man that I ended up marrying, there were many great qualities about him that this was not the thing that made me decide to marry him. But I remember early on when he asked what I was studying, He was one of the few young men that was so engaged and interested, and he thought it was just incredible what I was studying and how I was choosing to invest my time in an academic career.

He was completely comfortable discussing it. That was a sign to me that, you know, and as I got to know him better, that this was not an issue in his life. It wasn't a source of shame or hurt or pain for him. Now people can fake that. I realize people can lie and be deceptive, but I really encourage men and women to pay close attention to their guts. That's not a conversation I would bring up in passing or where there's a lot of distractions.

You wanna really see how does someone's body, emotions, how do they respond when that topic is brought up and how do they engage you on that? are, I think, really important signs.

Tara McCausland: I think the ability to communicate authentically with honesty about these issues is so critical, whether or not you're dealing with current issues or you're trying to prevent them. Um, but I, I love what you said, Jill, like, can someone even go there with us in a conversation like this? And that's incredibly telling for the trajectory of a potential relationship. Marriage is not easy, and there are going to be hard discussions that have to be had if we're going to commit to someone.

And so if someone is saying, I don't wanna have this discussion because I feel like it's not my place to ask, or I might feel like it's accusatory, maybe you could even lead out with, I care about you and I see potential in this relationship. And because of that, I wanna bring up some things that are meaningful to me. Yeah. So if you pad it a little bit, I think I wouldn't be having this conversation if I thought this was going nowhere.

Jill Manning: Yeah, I love how you framed that. And, and it can be certainly couched and introduced with care. And also, here's a key tip, is to normalize, because I really do believe all couples should be talking about intranet boundaries with the opposite sex. Pornography. I think that is the modern era we live in. This is a topic I really do believe all couples should clarify and have discussion about. So even that alone, that fact, Tara, can be a lead-in.

Like, I love what you shared. And then, you know, to add, hey, I just think it's smart. I value healthy relationships and I care about relationship and I want to make sure that Right from the beginning, there's a good foundation. And the, this is a common threat in today's world, just in the world we live in. So it's important to bring up. Yeah.

Tara McCausland: And we'll get there in part 2, I think, in our discussion. Um, but because we do know this is a common challenge that many people have, I also just want to put in the plug that it doesn't have to be a deal breaker. But what we're asking people to do is don't ignore it. Do not ignore it. Don't go into a relationship having not had a discussion. And if there is an issue, having not addressed it and talking about, this is what I need from you if this is a problem.

Um, but we'll get there. Right. Anyway, well, so as we're wrapping up part 1 here of this discussion, as a marriage and family therapist who has followed the research for many years, why isn't pornography ever just a small issue in a relationship?

Jill Manning: Because it's the antithesis of every single characteristic of healthy relationships that we know of. And I'm saying that as a social science researcher. If you look at the traits of healthy relationship, and I'm going to share several of them here, mutual belief in the institution of marriage, Fidelity, faithful body, mind, heart, mutual respect, trust, intimacy that strengthens the relational bond, marital bond, a spiritual foundation that doesn't necessarily mean religious foundation, but a sensitivity of the sacredness of life and assumption about the permanence of a relationship.

Would that— those, those are common traits, Tara, in the research that indicate long-term satisfying relationship characteristics. Then if we line that up with what we know about the characteristics and what the research says about what does pornography use do to relationships and marriage specifically, it's the complete opposite. With pornography, some of the common research effects we know, we have decreased desire to marry, right? It's just not as important. There's less desire for it. 3 times more likely to commit adultery and 4 times more likely to engage in paid sex encounters like prostitutes, escorts.

Decreased sensitivity toward women and less progressive views of gender. You cannot have an equal partnership if one person has these backward ideas about gender roles. It doesn't work. Decreased trust in one's partner. Increased risk of sexual dysfunction and dissatisfaction. And diminished sensitivity to sacred aspects of life. So when we line those up head to head, you know, if you compare apples to apples across the board, in every dimension, pornography is a destructive influence in healthy relationships, long-term satisfying relationships.

Now, I know there's some out there that may encounter, oh no, no, but I read a study or someone reference that this was really beneficial in a relationship. And here's what I'd say. I've met those people too, and they may think that's exciting and a thrill short-term, or, hey, my partner and I do this together. It's great. There is not longitudinal data supporting that. What that means is when they, when they research someone in cross-sectional studies, that's one slice in time.

Right. That thing may have, you know, been in the first 6 months of a relationship or first month, first 5 years. Long-term, 10 years, 15, 20 years in, that does not hold up. I've met plenty of people that said, hey, I thought I was being a cool, modern, evolved partner engaging in pornography even with my partner. Or I didn't, I really didn't see a problem. I just thought everybody does this. And then it comes crashing in. When even when the person realizes what you were doing this secretively behind my back, or I thought this was a shared activity.

It's not. And then over time, the effects of pornography add up. Yeah. And I, something that not a lot of people are aware of in my research background, when I was doing my doctoral studies, it wasn't just my research I was focused on. I had responsibilities as a research assistant to my doctoral chair. And one of her specialties was geriatric medicine and nursing and therapy. And so I researched, I did interviews, Tara, with elderly couples that most of them were like above the age of 70 and asked them, you know, what leads to satisfying relationship.

Not one. I mean, we researched many, many couples, long-term marriages. Not one said that pornography have led to happiness in relationship. It had been destructive and the couples that last, they're not engaged in that.

Tara McCausland: Yeah. Well, I'm so grateful that you brought that up because I was thinking, I know there's somebody listening to this thinking we're both engaging in pornography. They're in a pre-marriage relationship gearing up for the marriage. And they're both kind of on board with pornography. It will just be a part of our relationship. We'll just spice things up in the bedroom. Right. But how you describe that, it doesn't stay in a nice tidy little box because pornography is addictive and the dopamine hit that we get, we know that we don't just need more, we need different.

And so it creeps out of those tidy parameters into often secretive and more dark behaviors, prostitution, et cetera. So yeah, thank you for touching on that because that cultural narrative that says if we're both consuming together, then surely it's okay. But you said that the data doesn't bear that out.

Jill Manning: No, it doesn't.

Tara McCausland: Yeah. Okay. For those who are listening, and I'm sure you're thinking, okay, so what next? I'm in a relationship. I'm already in the throes of all this. What do you have for me or for my adult child who could use some help beyond preventing pornography problems in the relationship? So, so thank you for joining us for Part 1 of this discussion with Dr. Jill Manning. I hope you'll join us for part 2, where we will be discussing what to do if a dating relationship is already affected by pornography.

So thank you so much, Jill, for your time today. Thank you.

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