Navigating Sex Addiction Recovery: Insights from the SAL Conference 12-Step Men's Panel

Narrator: This is Pathway to Recovery, an SA Lifeline Foundation podcast featuring hosts Tara McCausland, who is the SA Lifeline Executive Director, and Justin B., a sex addict living in long-term recovery. We have conversations with experts and individuals who understand the pathway to healing from sexual addiction and betrayal trauma because we believe that recovering individuals leads to the healing of families.

Tara McCausland: Hello, welcome to the Pathway to Recovery Podcast. I'm Tara McCausland. We have a special episode for you, an SAL 12-step men's panel that we shared at our 2025 SA Lifeline Virtual Conference, which was just a couple of weeks ago. And I also wanted to share with you great news. So while obviously the conference is over, you can actually access the recordings of that full 2-day conference until next Monday, November 24th. So if you register, you have access to those recordings through the end of December 2025.

And thereafter, all of those conference presentations will be housed in our Digital Recovery Library on salifeline.org. But if you missed the conference and you were hoping to get some quality education from some experts in the field, as well as hearing from people who are walking this Path of Recovery, I invite you to go to salifeline.org, register, and watch the recordings. And hopefully, you'll be able to join us next year. Also wanted to let you know, since we have the holidays coming up, we like to take a little break in December.

So we will be back in January with new episodes. But between now and then, go back, listen to episodes that you haven't listened to. We've got 88 episodes posted. Lots of great content. And while you're at it, if you've been enjoying this podcast, I would invite you to pause, go to Apple Podcasts, and rate and review this podcast. When you do that, it actually helps people who are looking for similar content. So thank you in advance for taking the time to rate and review.

Glad you're here, and I hope you enjoy this SAL 12-step men's panel discussing the recovery puzzle and SAL 12-step circle models.

Jonathan L.: Hello and welcome to the 2025 SA Lifeline Virtual Conference. We're so glad you're joining us today. My name is Jonathan L., and I'll be moderating this men's panel discussion. I come from the rooms of recovery and have been in recovery since about 2021. Each of these men has walked a personal journey of surrender, accountability, and healing, and together we'll explore how the SAL recovery puzzle and circle models have guided them along the way. The Recovery Puzzle is SA Lifeline's holistic approach to healing.

It reminds us that recovery involves both inner heart and mind pieces— things like a willing heart, humility, honesty, and spiritual connection— and outer action pieces such as qualified therapy, 12-step work, education, boundaries, and the daily practice of surrender. The circle model is powerful, is a powerful visual that helps us to see the cycles of both addiction and trauma. They help us to recognize the symptoms that keep us stuck, the patterns of acting out, and the emotional and spiritual drift that happens when we lose God as the center of our focus.

So before we dive in, I'd love for each of our panelists to briefly introduce themselves. Please share how long you've been in recovery and anything else you'd like the audience to know about your journey. I'll ask first, Andrew, if you'd start, and then Chris S., if you go next.

Andrew S.: Great. Thank you, Jonathan. My name is Andrew S. I have been working SAL 12 steps since a friend of mine introduced me to it, dragged me kicking and screaming into these rooms of recovery. But gratefully, and through the grace of God, my higher power, I've been in recovery since and sobriety since July 20th, 2017. Currently attending meetings weekly and making connections daily.

Nikitas: And I'll pass. Thanks.

Chris S.: Hey, thanks, Andrew. Thanks, Jonathan. Grateful to be here. My name is Chris. I have been working this for about 4 years now and have actively been trying to learn and grow and figure this process out. Um, I think if I told myself 4 years ago that this would be the journey, I would've never believed you. And, uh, there's many things that have come to pass as a result of this journey, and there's many things that are still mysteries and great wonders that I'm hoping to figure out as I figure this out.

But, uh, been holding, uh, onto sobriety since July 15th, 2021, and, uh, keep taking it one day at a time and keep working at it. And with that, I'll pass.

Jonathan L.: Thanks, Andrew and Chris. I appreciate that. Up next, Julian, and then Nikitas, and then we'll have John.

Julian: Thanks, Jonathan, and glad to be here. My name is Julian. I'm a grateful recovering sex addict. Uh, I started recovery back in September of 2019, um, and that's been a life, life, uh, life-changing process. Um, uh, some hiccups along the way, so I've actually been sober since March of 2024. Um, but I am most grateful that God has been My my way through this. Thanks. I'll pass. Awesome.

Nikitas: Hey guys, my name is Nikitas. I am a gratefully recovering sex addict. My sobriety day is October fourth of two thousand and twenty one. I've been in the rooms since early of two thousand and twenty. I want to say like my first spiritual experience was when I when I wasn't ignorant to my ignorance anymore, and it was like it was really eye opening of how much damage I caused. And I'm just grateful for the SAL and this program and and the brothers in this program and.

And just having a willing heart to be here. You know, thanks for asking me to be here. I'm grateful. I pass.

John H.: Hey, thanks, Nikitas. Hey, I'm John H. I too am a sex addict. Um, I am sober since April 20th, 2020. Um, and it's a miracle. And, um, only through the help of the guys here and, um, the men in the program and God, have I been able to, to be here and at this point in my life. Um, yeah, if you had asked me 5 years ago, this is where I'd be, 5 and a half years ago, I would have said you're crazy people, you know.

But I am grateful to be where I'm at. And, um, anyway, yeah, I'll pass. Thanks.

Jonathan L.: Awesome. I just, for the record and everyone here, I wanna mention just how very special it is to have all these men in a room and chatting with them. Uh, the cumulative experience in here is what we're after, and I am so excited to get your take on some of these critical aspects of recovery and some of the resources that we have. Now, I'm gonna share really quickly, um, just so that we can take a look at it, especially for those who aren't quite familiar with it.

I wanna start off looking at these inner heart and mind pieces. I'm gonna highlight a few of them. We could go into all of them, but I fear that our time would elapse very quickly if we did everything. So let's look at these because these heart and mind pieces, they're the qualities that form the foundation of deep spiritual recovery. And that's why they're kind of in the middle here. So the first question I wanna look at, I'm targeting this willing heart right there, smack dab in the middle.

This is the first piece of the recovery puzzle. I want to get a take because so many of you have so much experience now. But let's, let's pull it back in time a bit. What did willingness look like for you in the early stages of recovery? And how has that willingness deepened or changed over time?

Andrew S.: I'll share one, one experience that I had with the willing heart. Back in the day when I first got started, I was willing to do it to make my wife happy. Um, so my willing heart was to please others, not for myself and not for, um, for my own health. Um, but I soon learned that that didn't work, and I'll get into a little bit more of that later.

Nikitas: Yeah, I like to share about that. Uh, for me, it was about being humble. I had the gift of desperation coming in here. You know, I was homeless, I was suicidal, I was away from my family. And the humble part of it, like I had to get humble to become willing to be able to even just even have the idea to join the program, to listen to others. And that's still true today. When things get in the way of my connection with God, it's about me being willing and not letting the ego deflate, that deflation of ego that the White Book talks about.

That, that's how it was for me when I first got here, and it still continues to be like I need humbleness to work this program.

John H.: Hey, um, my story sounds like, uh, Andrew's. I was willing to do whatever it took to make my wife happy, and I didn't want to go to a program. I didn't want to go to therapy. I didn't want to do those things. But I found very quickly, my first meeting, that I needed to be there for me. That's all it took for me. I'm grateful for that. Thanks.

Chris S.: Yeah, I think if I jump my thoughts, it's, I was willing to try and do something different, because so much of what I had tried was not different and was not working for me. And so I was willing to give some things a try, but I had very clear boundaries and parameters of what I thought that willingness was going to be. And I set out pretty wary, trepidation, as I was willing to try something. And I learned very quickly that that willingness transformed as I continued to learn.

And as my recovery journey continued, that willingness of those things came back as humility and vulnerability that needed to be knocked down and removed because the pride and ego was a little bit too stout to begin with. And so allowing that willingness to come in. It took time, and it did not come immediately. And I was not open to whatever needed to be done at first. But it was part of the learning journey and something that I am very grateful for in looking back in hindsight.

Julian: For me, willingness was a lot similar to what these, these other fellows have shared that I was, as the White Book we read earlier this week says, I may not feel like it, but there was a willingness. I was kind of—it was kind of forced on me to to come into these rooms. I was just kind of brought here because I I knew I needed to change my life. But as for like willingly, openly, willingly to come and join, like it wasn't my choice to do that.

And so now it as I've been in recovery, it's evolved into now this is what I'm willing to do because I actually enjoy it. It's actually something that. That helps me, and even on the days that are that it's that it's hard for me, I still have that desire to to come here and be here. And so, without that willing heart, recovery wouldn't be happening for me.

Jonathan L.: Yeah, I love the input from everyone, especially because it shows that standard evolution—not even standard—but there's there's a special journey that seems to have a common thread between everyone, which is I'm here because there's a compulsory need to be in recovery. Maybe I hit a rock bottom that changed. that deepened. And I think that if we're gonna just pull another piece from the puzzle, and I'm gonna pick on someone because of something that was said, but many men describe recovery, it's not just a behavioral change, but a spiritual awakening.

Nikitas, I'm coming after you first, but only because you mentioned it in your introduction. And so I feel like you're— it's a good springboard. How have you experienced a spiritual connection in recovery? And what practices help you keep God at the center of your healing?

Nikitas: Yeah, thanks for asking me that. Pausing has been a huge thing for me because I've been very reactive in my life. You know, I was always very, or I have been and could still be very defensive with anybody giving me any kind of a different opinion than my own. And that's where the ego comes in. And now I do have the gift of being able to pause. Like I have the ability to pause now. And which was really funny because when I was younger, my father would tell me, Nikitas, take 10 seconds.

Count to ten, count to ten. But I wasn't in that receiving mode, right? I feel like things come to us in a in a position, you know, during our recovery or in our in our life that when we were actually able to receive the words that other people are telling us, right? And I didn't receive it to pause until I got here. And it's still true now, like not just at the beginning of learning how to pause at the beginning of my recovery, but now it's like.

It has been such a— I've been practicing it so much over these last 5 years that it actually has become like instinctual. Like, I just pause now. Like, I don't react right away. Do I? Have I reacted? Yes. But my trajectory has changed over time, right? It's like, let's say that, you know, I'm not doing it like 10 out of 10 times now. Like, I might react, you know, once out of 10 times, twice out of 10 times. But it's like, it's just getting better and better.

Because I had that willing heart to learn this, these practices that I've been learning from these men, you know. And that's what connects me to God is when I'm able to pause, I'm able to let God in. Because if I don't pause, my mind just is on, is on repeat and it's too busy to let God in. I need to quiet down to let God in. I think that's been the best practice For me to stay connected to God.

Jonathan L.: I love that. And quieting the noise so a connection can be established is so fantastic. I want to open it up to, to the rest of the panel from here and get some more insights on spiritual connection and your experience with it.

Chris S.: Yeah, I can jump in. I think one of the things for me that came up is I feel like I've always been a religious person. It's always been something from birth that was in the home that I grew up in. But it wasn't until I entered the halls of recovery that I really got to know my higher power and my God. And it took the first several years of recovery to kind of reconstruct that connection with that higher power that I thought was strong and resolute from all the experiences that I'd had up to that point in my life.

And when I restructured, reframed it into someone who could love me for the negative things that I have done and open up and receive me for who I was, regardless of what I did, uh, it really changed that connection, my willingness to surrender and commit to trying to follow that better will from a higher power, as opposed to just trying to do it my own way that was not working before.

Jonathan L.: I love that idea of change of view of God, but also submission to that new vision of who he is. And that adaptation that you've had, Chris, is super incredible. I love that. Thank you for sharing. Anyone else want to touch on spiritual connection?

John H.: Hey, this is John. Um, so for me, as I worked through the process to get my first step inventory done, um, that was hard. Um, you know, it helped me, um, realize that I was truly out of control and, um, that I needed some help. And, um, and then when the night that I actually, um, shared my first step inventory, it was as if the Savior, um, my higher power, was sitting right next to me. entire time.

And it was, wow, just an incredible spiritual event. And since then, I have just found that I talk to my higher power all day long. Anytime I have a struggle, anytime I have something I'd like some help on, I just reach out and say, hey, need some help here, right? What do you think? And then I listen. And, uh, I didn't used to do that, but man, um, he's great. He's always there, and I appreciate him.

Thanks.

Jonathan L.: John, what's really cool about your statement, and I'm just gonna kind of play off this for a second, is how much it connects with the same kind of ideology that Nikitas shared with us, with the slowing down Preparing to listen, asking and receiving. I mean, this is connection. That's real connection, right? Is that exchange. So I love that. That's awesome. I'm gonna really quickly push us into the next one just because we could spend all night talking about these.

And I'm gonna put 2 together here, 2 more puzzle pieces. And I think this is an incredibly important topic for a lot of people, especially who are starting. I'm gonna pull both pieces of humility and rigorous honesty because I feel like they're so connected here. Those are the cornerstones of recovery, and, and they can be incredibly uncomfortable, honestly, at first, especially people just starting out the program. You're doing a therapeutic disclosure, or you're doing your first step inventory, like you mentioned, John.

I'm looking for someone maybe to share a time when choosing humility or honesty in a rigorous fashion helped them experience a breakthrough, a real change, even when, you know, it was difficult.

Julian: I know When I started recovery, going back to that willingness aspect, like I was, the willingness was forced upon me. I had nowhere else to go to. And so when I started in recovery with my first sponsor, it was kind of like, okay, I'll do what I need to do. I think as I got into step 9, I realized that there were some individuals I didn't wanna make amends to. And so I kind of, that was kind of the start of my recovery where it helped me to see that, you know, if I don't fully engage in these, Yeah.

in these steps, in these principles, then I'm not going to get anywhere. And so part of that humility aspect is I wasn't humble. I wasn't, I wasn't willing to do some of those things. And I wasn't honest. I wasn't honest with my sponsor. And soon enough, it, it turned everywhere else in my life where I just kind of like just disregarded honesty. And so it eventually led to a relapse. And so then when I worked with my next sponsor, I understood because he always preached to me rigorous honesty.

You're not going to get anywhere if there's no rigorous honesty. And so, as I've understood what that meant, it means that I— there's no secrets. There's no stone unturned in my life now. I need to talk about it, not just hide it under the rug and like, yeah, I'll get there. It's about talking about it and surrendering. those aspects. And so that, that for me, being able to do that was huge. And more recently, I've been able to become more honest and willing and humble to say that, you know, I've got a problem also with my phone, especially with social media, and accepting that, you know, I have no power over these things.

A lot like when I started in recovery, I was focused on the sexual acting out, but now I'm learning that I need to engage these principles in everything. And that's— Yeah. That was with the devices. That was a kind of a humble slice of pie for me to say, you know, I'm totally powerless over this, just as it was with sexually acting out.

Andrew S.: When I thought of honesty, and again, being completely honest and rigorous honesty is very, very humbling for me. So yeah, they go hand in hand. For me, there was 3 types of honesty. One, the all-out lie, even the white lie. The white lie, not telling the complete story or justifying my actions. That, you know, that's still a lie. And then there's the deflection part of it where, okay, I'm going to tell you, but I'm not going to tell you everything.

at this point. Um, it's again not being completely honest. And then there's the, the rigorous honesty where it's okay to take a pause and, and think about your answer. Um, there was a time in my recovery when, uh, my wife would ask me a question and I didn't want to answer that question. And I, and so I simply asked, you know, I'm not ready to answer that question right now. Can I have a a few minutes to make sure that I can humble myself enough to give you the, the honest, true, and, and complete answer.

Um, and that's what has worked for me, and, and it has brought me to the point in the process that I go there first. I go there first to honesty and, and avoid, avoid the lie. That has made all the difference in our relationship. If I lie, she knows it, and she's going to be upset and hurt. If I tell the truth, she'll know it. We can move forward with it. So that's where honesty plays for me.

And it is humbling to actually do that.

Jonathan L.: I— what I love about this is, as you look through the puzzle, these are all connected because they all create the same sort of process of healing and recovery. There is one piece though that has— it baffles a lot of folks because there's very little control over it. And I want to dive into this one with you folks. It's specifically time. You can't speed it up, you can't slow it down. It's going to do what it does.

Time is time. It's one of those most challenging pieces. Recovery is a long-term process and it unfolds in layers. We have a room full of fellas who I admire, I look up to, who have Years of sobriety, years of experience. I'm going to ask it. What have you learned about patience and trusting this process, especially when the progress feels slow?

Nikitas: Yeah, I'll step into that one. It's painful. Pain, you know, time is painful sometimes. It's also healing. You know, I— you can't rush what has taken— well, for me, when I got into the rooms, I was 44. That was 44 years of doing it my way, and learning something different takes time for that. You know, I— the way I'm looking at it, it's like I have 4 years sobriety, I'm 4 years old in this program. I'm still a toddler, and I'm still learning.

Um, and I've also discovered that it didn't take long for me, once I was able to have humility and rigorous honesty, to feel the promises that the AA Big Book talks about. Because it switches real quickly, right? Like, and, and the people see— the— your family and people around you see the energy shift. That doesn't mean that I'm not going to fall back to old behaviors and old narratives. Of course I am, you know. It's, it's like I've been practicing them for 44 years before I got into the program.

So, um, and now that it's like 5 years later, man, it's still slow sometimes. It's definitely not linear. It's definitely— it feels more like a roller coaster. But then it's like Okay, when things are feeling good, okay, am I becoming complacent during that time? Am I slowing down my recovery, right? Or am I leaning in further? Like, I recently I've been asking, I've been asking God, what am I doing to play it safe? Am I playing it safe in my recovery, or am I actually challenging myself to learn differently?

You know, and the more I challenge myself with my recovery is, uh, you know, the more pain comes. But pain is good. I think it's an indicator from God for the things I need to look at that I haven't looked at yet. You know, it's casting that light on it. It definitely takes time, but it's— it feels good once it clicks. It feels good. And then, okay, here's another— here's another hill I have to climb. And I love it.

Like, I love recovery because I'm learning more about myself, and it's actually making me safer for the people around me.

John H.: Um, so for me, it was like, you know, I want to be done. I'm going to be done. You know, 12 steps, great. I'm going to be done. Right? Here I am, 5 and a half years later, and I'm still working those same 12 steps, right? And that's okay, right? It's my life today. But, you know, honestly, I can only focus on the right now. I can't change what happened 2 minutes ago. I can't change what's going to happen Really 5 minutes from now until I get there, right?

So I can really focus on right now. And, you know, one of the phrases they use in the, in the group is it's one day at a time, right? And sometimes it's, you know, one minute at a time when you're having a tough day. And, um, but that's all I have to focus on, and it makes it easier to think of it in that one little chunk, not this big process.

Andrew S.: Let me jump in here real quick. Time for me was, oh, an hour and a half meeting. I gotta sit through it. And I, I, I've, I got so much to do around the house. It just takes time and I gotta sit through this meeting. But now time to me is, hey, I can put all that stuff aside and I get to go and sit in a meeting and share and be with my fellows and, and, you know, my brothers and, and just feel that connection.

Um, that's what time meant for— means for me now. And yeah, it's a slow process. I, I agree. And it took me a while to get to that point, but it's made all the difference. Thanks.

Jonathan L.: I love it. I love the perspective of, of looking at it not as a revolving door in and out, but as a, as a spiral staircase always So you guys, man, changing my perspective here as well. I love this. Let me share the recovery puzzle one more time because I want to go ahead and we're going to talk about some of these outer sections here, or the outer action pieces of the recovery puzzle. I want to talk about qualified therapy actually very first here.

Finding a qualified therapist who understands sexual addiction and trauma recovery can be a real game changer. I know I had that. Um, a therapist saved my marriage, uh, and, and honestly, it saved me having a qualified therapist. Uh, but I want to hear from you fellas. Uh, how did you find the right therapist, and what role has therapy played alongside your 12-step work? How's those— how have those worked almost synergistically?

Andrew S.: I'll go ahead and jump in again, um, if I may. Therapists, for me, I, I had a therapist. I had one, one that would call a qualified therapist, is a CSAT. Um, and through the process of, of getting started and, and looking at doing a full therapeutic disclosure, he, he asked that my wife went to another therapist that's qualified, um, to, to help her through the steps. And in talking between the two of them, um, that therapist told me that, you know, I don't think you're You can do a therapeutic disclosure because your wife can't handle it.

She's not ready for it. She just cannot handle it and never will be able to. She didn't like that too much, and so we went and found a different qualified therapist. And I'll tell you, the right therapist doing the right job has made all the difference for us. Um, and we went through that disclosure, and she said, she said, Andrew, that's the most honest I've ever heard you when you talk about your sexual addiction. And, and it really was a springboard to a much stronger relationship between the two of us and trust and honesty and reliance, um, on the process.

And that's, that's what qualified therapy does for you.

Julian: Similar to what Andrew shared, um, my wife and I went to— found a therapist and, um, together as a couple, and we went through a couple of sessions, and by the end of it, our therapist looked at us and said, well, I don't really have anything. This is after I came out that I was a sex addict, and we went through a couple of these sessions, and, um, this therapist said, I don't, I don't think you have anything to work on.

And we're like, oh, that doesn't sound right. So Being able to talk to some other people and find the right therapist, really, we worked with this one counselor that we had for probably a good 2 years. And I personally learned a lot about my wife and what she went through. It helped us to come and grow closer together. And it helped me to be more empathetic and understanding of where my wife was at through all of this.

And even outside of the betrayal trauma, just like who she was as a person. And it helped me to find myself as well. So finding the right therapy, the right therapist, was huge for our marriage. It's been huge for my recovery. I wouldn't be where I'm at really without that therapist.

Nikitas: Yeah, I'd like to share a little bit about qualified therapy. So I didn't go through a CSTAT. I did go to an addiction therapist and He, at first, he basically told me that, you know, like it's a normal act to do. It's okay. I got nothing. And I quickly realized that that therapist wasn't for me. And then I did find another therapist, but she wasn't a C-STAT either. But what really did help with that was the IFS kind of work and the EMDR kind of work.

Because, you know, porn and masturbation and acting out sexually, you know, that's the solution for something that's even deeper. Yeah. And what helped me was getting to my childhood trauma kind of things and recognizing that aspect. And, you know, I have 3 core wounds, and that's I'm not enough, I don't matter, please don't leave me kind of stuff. And when, when I'm able to tap into that kind of stuff and work on that, the internal family system and EMDR, man, there's such relief with that, you know, because then I could show up for the people around me with strength instead of coming through scarcity or needing validation or being clingy.

Right. And expecting my partner or my kids to give me the validation that only my— really only God and the God within me, the love within me could give myself. Right. So, yeah, childhood trauma kind of therapy for me really worked. And it's still working.

Jonathan L.: I mean, just incredible, especially some of the insights on the work that it takes to find not just a qualified therapist, but someone that works for you in your recovery that you can coordinate with for growing and learning. All of you kind of shared that aspect of making sure that that is a connection that is serviceable, right? I love that. And I'm very grateful for that experience, that, that tidbit that'll help people who are also looking for therapists.

I know therapy led to one thing that was extremely important in my marriage, which is boundaries. Boundaries are essential for maintaining safety and integrity, especially in that relationship where trust is so vital. What kinds of boundaries— personal, relational, digital, with your technology— would have been the most helpful for you in staying grounded and aligned with your values?

Chris S.: This is one that has taken a long time to even slightly scratch the surface of understanding. And beyond that, it's one that I don't know that I necessarily have really comfortable grounds with. I struggle between requests and boundaries, and I've been told the definitions dozens of times and trying to align myself with, is this a request? Is this a boundary? Is this for me? Is this for something that helps me to stay safe? Is it for somebody else?

And I think ultimately for me, it was just understanding what dysregulates me And what do I need to eliminate or add more of into my life? And for myself, I have learned that I, I have to spend time exercising or being outside doing something for myself. And I also need to eliminate many of the social media sources with which I've used in the past. Um, and those were 2 components that I absolutely realized over time were critical.

for my ability to stay regulated and stay dialed in with what I need to do. And it doesn't always work, and it's not always— it's always evolving. But those are 2 components of boundaries that have been critical for me to make sure that I stay within my regulated state.

Nikitas: Hey, I'd like to jump in and just feed off of what Chris was saying. To be regulated and dysregulated in any kind of Respectful conflict within the house is important. Like, I want to be regulated. So when things get heated up, you know, partner or my kids or anything like that, I've expressed to them and we have practiced to be able to shelf the conversation. Any one of us could do it at any time if we feel like we're getting dysregulated and we're able to shelf the conversation and actually tell each other when we're going to come back to that conversation.

Because, you know, we all, we all have different kind of attachment styles, avoidant, anxious and all that. It's good that we actually are able to shelf the conversation and tell each other, hey, let's get back to this in a couple hours, later tonight, tomorrow morning, or even bring it with our therapist or anything like that. That's one thing I've found to be very helpful in communication with my loved ones is being able to give them the opportunity, also the power, also to shelf it, not just Dad.

Right? But anybody can shelf a conversation knowing we're going to come back to it so that we can enjoy the evening still. You know, we know it's there. You know, we don't have to be pissed off at each other the whole night, you know, going to separate rooms. We can actually still enjoy the evening and still be loving towards each other.

Jonathan L.: I love how you both highlighted these are opportunities to build healthy relationships, right? It's not some confinement. It's an opportunity to build, which I love that. build trust. On this, and this is a topic that some folks who are listening might need some help with, I know I definitely did early in my recovery, still do some days. Let's talk about surrender. It's one of those outer pieces, and the practice of surrender is vital to recovery. But let's break it apart.

Let's help some people understand. Let's dig into it with the collective hope experience that we have. What does surrender look like for you day to day? And how do you come back to it when you're struggling? I mean, what anchors you in it?

John H.: For me, surrender has been like, huge. I really didn't know what it meant. And it wasn't until I, you know, one of the guys was sharing in one of the meetings I was in, and he shared that, you know, all it is truly is you being willing to give up what you're struggling with. Give it away. Give it to God. Right? That's what surrender ultimately is. And for me, it was like a light bulb went on.

Right? And it gave me the opportunity to say, well, shoot, maybe I can do that. Right? And so I started doing it. And originally, I struggled with thoughts that used to come in my head. Any webpage I ever saw, you know, it stuck in my head. Right? And they'd pop up. randomly throughout the day. And, um, I decided I was going to surrender every time one of those thoughts came up. And I did. And I surrendered it, gave it to God, and he took it and it was gone.

I thought, wow, that was cool. But, you know, hour later, another thought came up. I surrendered it, gave it to God. it was gone. And I was like, wow, this is cool. That first day I probably surrendered 50 or 60 times, right? I was like just amazed that every single time that thought would go away, right? And over the years, those thoughts don't pop up like they used to. You know, if I have 2 or 3 a week, that's a lot.

So it doesn't really happen a lot anymore. But today Any, any frustrations, any resentments, any, anything I'm struggling with, I surrender it. I give it to God, right? He's willing to take it if I give it to him, right? And I just, I love surrender. It makes my life so much better.

Julian: I'll, uh, kind of piggyback on John there. Um, I know for me, I didn't understand what surrenderment either, and it was scary to tell somebody, um, what I was thinking or the thought I had about acting out or something, or even just emotional disturbances. Um, but I love— my favorite analogy is thinking of, you know, surrender is where before when I was acting out, it was I would pray to God, say, God, With my fist closed, I would say, God, take this from me.

Like, please just take it away. But now instead of— it's an open palm where I hear God, I give it to you. And so part of my process of surrender is I give it to God. I surrender whatever that is, whatever I'm feeling, trigger thought I have. And then I actually will call up somebody and talk it through because for me, vocally talking it through I can do that with God as well, but actually telling somebody else allows a deeper level of surrender for me.

And talking it through with somebody out loud allows me another way to just let it out. It's vocally coming out of my body and I'm surrendering it. That's been a hard practice, especially beginning my recovery, but now it's been something that I really hold on to.

Jonathan L.: I love this focus on— and Julian, you said it so well— this opening your hand But John also talking about how it just needs to be a continual ongoing practice and it becomes easier over time, right? This liberating thing that comes from surrender. I mean, such great insight from everybody. I wanna go ahead, we've talked about now the puzzle quite a bit. Let's look at the circle models. Now the circle models are in the SAL book, the newest version of it.

You can find them on page, I think it's 3 through 19. And I wanna, there's 2 specific ones I wanna look at. There's a good handful of them. There's the positive, negative, sort of for both sides of the house, right? But let's take a look here. So this is that circle model of pornography use and sexual addiction. Honestly, it's, it's a great map of something terrible to help us understand it. But I wanted to kind of talk about this.

You see, this, the circle model gives us a visual understanding of addiction and recovery. So the inner circle shows those patterns of denial, acting out disconnection, and that outer circle shows that path that we're seeing, that there's kind of this cycle that's happening, these actions. How does understanding this model here, a visualization of your addiction, how did that help you see it more clearly? And how did that change your recovery?

Andrew S.: I think it says it pretty clearly on the top, absorbed chaos. And it is, it's nothing but chaos. And I didn't want to live in a chaotic life. Anymore. I can't do that at home. I can't have chaos at work. It drives me batty. That model, that addiction model is nothing but chaos. And it, and I don't know how, I didn't understand how I could live in all that chaos because it's so against who I am and what I believe and what I feel.

And so understanding that helped me to to choose not to have chaos.

Nikitas: Yeah, I thought— now that I'm looking at it, the reason I'm smiling at it is because I thought this was normal. I did it for so long that this is what life was. And I can't believe I put my family through this. I can't believe I put myself through this. I'm looking at this, I— how can I not believe that the adversary was within me? You know, how can I— like, how could I think that I was a man of God at this time, even though I thought I was because I was going to church, I was growing up in church, but I did not have a spiritual connection whatsoever.

I— the adversary was in me, and this was normal for me. This was me, and I thought it was okay until everything blew up. You know, eventually everything blows up. This blows up.

Jonathan L.: Yeah, I— such a fantastic overview and discussion here about this model, this chaos model here of pornography use and sexual addiction. And that's the experience. That's what brought us in here. Um, I want to then move over to, and I'm going to focus on this one specifically. There's the circle model of living in recovery from sexual addiction. So complete opposites here is what we're trying to look at. And I want to get just your analysis, your views, and your experience of what it is like looking at this, looking at that, and understanding these key aspects.

What are the core differences between these and this model specifically? What are you finding extremely valuable? Why does this matter?

Julian: One of the things that I've heard over the years of being in an SAL 12-step is, you know, at the center is God in that, where in the addictive cycle, it's all about me. It's all about what I'm feeling. It's all about my resentments. It's me, me, me. And so putting God in the center for me Um, what, what I love about those 2 cycles is they're both cycles. If I feed the healthy, um, the healthy cycle, it just propels itself.

It continues to go on. The same thing with the addictive cycle. Um, I'll propel it to go in an unhealthy direction if I, if I keep that. And so keeping God as my center in all of that, I mean, really, it's what, what starts it all. Yeah. Going back to the surrender part, if I turn to God and surrender to him, then I'm opening up the doorway to a healthy lifestyle versus where if I feed— if I stay centered on myself, I'm unwilling to surrender, unwilling to do anything to be honest, accountable, or any of it, then I'm just going to be stuck in that difficult wheel of chaos.

And so for me, God at the center, um, is really where it starts for me.

Jonathan L.: And this is, this is something I want to hone in on. I'm going to kind of pivot off that comment to the rest of the panel. This circle model is reminding us that God should be at the center, not, not us, right? Um, but also the peace comes as we align with him. What helps us notice when we're slipping away from him as our center? A lot of brothers I know got into the addiction without even realizing how chaotic it was getting until it was too much, right?

So what makes us notice that we're slipping, and then what actions or practices are helping us to return to having God at the center?

Chris S.: For me, it's just recognizing kind of where I'm at. And, um, it's taken a lot of time to internalize and understand my feelings and my emotions that I ignored for so long and not being able to understand how to respond to those. And without being able to understand and respond to those feelings that I'm feeling and process through them, it's hard to connect with God, with myself, with anyone. And what I have found is, is I try and find answers to that.

It's through connecting with my higher power that I'm able to find self-reflection that helps me see where am I really at, and am I being truly honest and humble about where I'm at, or am I trying to hide some of these things and let some of those other elements of the model that caused such chaos in my life to prevail. And I also recognize another one is the 12th step and the willingness to carry this message forth to others.

I know what I'm kind of retreating back and I'm, I'm not really wanting to connect with other brothers or help others through their journey. There's probably a disconnect with God and myself in some other aspect of my life. And if I'm not wanting to attend meetings, if I'm not wanting to reach out and make the connections that I need to make on a regular basis, there's something that's off-centered with my connection with God where I'm not probably centered elsewhere.

And whether that's on myself or somebody else or something else, it's not God. And those are all recipes for disaster in my life.

Nikitas: Yeah, I was going to talk about self-evaluation as well, getting to the point that, you know, you can recognize what, what you are feeling. And there's an acronym that I kind of like using to get To get connected within what's going on with myself, as also yeah, just to get current. And it's called Fanos F A N O S feelings, appreciations, needs, owning, and spirituality. And I just go through that. I recognize my feelings at the moment, the things that I'm appreciative of, and the gratitude that I have, the needs that I need.

You know, maybe I'm thirsty or you know dehydrated. I need something to eat, or I just need a hug. You know, something I want to tell myself about, like owning, like I need to own something, tell myself. And in spirituality, where I am connected with God, and when I get into the present moment, being where my feet are, not thinking about the past, like John was talking about, thinking about the past or thinking about the future, just being in the present.

That's really the most connection I have with God. And there is a, you know, a great way to do that is with what Chris was saying, is with fellowship, is calling someone, asking how they're doing, being of service. Yeah. You know, there's a difference between the blood and the ink. The ink of 12 steps is we're doing the steps, right? But the blood is the fellowship. Like, like being able to— like, I feel like I am responsible, you know, for another brother reaching out in this program because this program has saved my life.

When I first joined, there were men that gave up their time to lead me through this path, right? To make me a human, a responsible, loving human, right? So to, to get back into that, to be able to give that to somebody else, and then what's more godly than that? What's more spiritual than that, you know? And, um, and journaling. I can't express enough how much writing has changed my life, you know, getting my thoughts and feelings on paper, slowing down, pen to paper.

And how that process really rejuvenates my soul, brings me back to God. I love journaling, setting an intention in the day when I wake up. And then with that intention, I write a prayer, a short little prayer. That's my first journal in the morning. And it just, it just sets my day up right. And I need to connect. And that's, that's how I do what I do with journaling.

Jonathan L.: I love it, brothers. Man, thank you so much for addressing some of these really Tough topics. It is no small thing, the work you have done and the experience that you bring to this room, this conversation. So valuable. I just— small moment. I mean, me 4 or 5 years ago would have been stunned to hear some of these things. Just shocked that there are men like this out there fighting this addiction, working to recover. becoming what we all are trying to become and working with God.

Just beautiful. I can't emphasize enough the just educationally rich content that is in these books and these diagrams and these models. Thank you for diving in with me, and thank you all for your honesty and openness and sharing today. Your experience has reminded me and all of us that it works when we work it. It's all about consistent surrender, accountability, and turning to God. and safe connection one day at a time, even sometimes one moment at a time.

To those listening, we hope this conversation gives you hope and direction in your own journey. Remember, lasting recovery is possible when we keep God at the center and do the work both inside and out. Thank you all for joining us tonight.

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