Spotting Incomplete Sex Addiction Recovery & What To Do About It w/ Tammy Gustafson

Narrator: This is Pathway to Recovery, an SA Lifeline Foundation podcast featuring hosts Tara McCausland, who is the SA Lifeline Executive Director, and Justin B., a sex addict living in long-term recovery. We have conversations with experts and individuals who understand the pathway to healing from sexual addiction and betrayal trauma because we believe that recovering individuals leads to the healing of families.

Tara McCausland: Welcome. Before we get going into this awesome episode with Tammy Gustafson, I wanted to share with you a couple of upcoming events. First, I'm really excited about something new that we've never tried before. I'm inviting you to attend a live recording of Pathway to Recovery podcast. This will be February 2nd. That's a Monday. at 12:30 PM Mountain Time. And our special guest will be Stephen Croshaw, co-founder of SA Lifeline. And we'll be having a conversation about the importance of sobriety in sex addiction recovery and what long-term recovery takes.

Stephen is my father, and he has had long-term solid recovery for the last 20 years, and he's worked really hard at it. So I would love for you to join us and you can ask your questions at the end of the interview and then just be a part of the recording experience. So if you want to participate, I'm not going to create a special signup. I'm just going to invite you to reach out in 2 ways. If you go to this episode, you'll see a place where you can leave your email.

It's by the show notes. Go ahead and leave your email there and I will send you the Zoom link for that live recording. Or you can go to salifeline.org. Okay. And go to our contact page and say, please send me the Zoom link. So we're going to try this out. It should be fun. Also, we have our Visioncast coming up on February 9th. And if you would like to register, please go to salifeline.org and you'll find a place where you can drop your email and you can join us to learn more about what SA Lifeline Foundation is doing in 2026.

So I hope to see you at both events. And now to the show. Welcome to the Pathway to Recovery Podcast. I'm your host, Tara McCausland, and I'm so pleased to have here with me Tammy Gustafson. I am going to get that right. That's the only time I have to say your last name through this interview. Welcome, Tammy.

Tammy Gustafson: Thank you so much, and you did great.

Tara McCausland: Okay, good. Well, I did a little run-through before we started and I already tripped up, so. Well, Tammy, so good to have you here. We're going to be talking about incomplete recovery and how that might be affecting a betrayed partner. Um, what snapshot can you give us of today's conversation?

Tammy Gustafson: Yeah, we're gonna be talking about the idea where you feel like your partner is doing good work. He's done work, but it just, there's something that still kind of feels off. And that's what I call incomplete recovery. And that is a really tricky place to be. And we're tying that in with triggers because there's a whole lot of triggers. Uh, in betrayal in general, but also in this area of incomplete recovery.

Tara McCausland: Wonderful. Well, I'm excited about this conversation, and before we dive in, I do want to read a brief bio here. Tammy is a trauma-informed licensed professional counselor, coach, and speaker with over 15 years of experience. She holds a master's in counseling and is the founder of and CEO of Betrayal Healing and Live Free Counseling. She specializes in helping women pick up the broken pieces of their hearts, find their strength, and reclaim their worth and value after betrayal.

She hosts the annual Betrayal Healing Conference and is the author of brand new book, Broken to Brave: Your Courageous Act of Healing from Intimate Betrayal. So we'll actually get to your book a little bit later in this interview, but I bet you're really excited about that. Tammy, first book. Big deal. Well, so let's jump into this. So incomplete recovery, maybe you can give us an example of what might incomplete recovery look like. What are some of the signs that someone might be checking some of the boxes, but there are some real gaps?

Tammy Gustafson: Yeah. So what I mean by incomplete recovery, Is your partner may be sober, and let's hope so. Because if he's not at the place where he's sober, if he's relapsing regularly, then we have a whole nother issue. Then there's a lot of just basic recovery that still needs to happen. But a lot of my clients get to a place where their husband is sober, where he is going to counseling, he's learning some things, he made progress and changes.

Where my client is like, "No, he really has done good work. Like he really." is different than what he was. And so we can celebrate that piece. But then it gets into this gray area where it feels really confusing because then it'll go, but there's still, there's just still something like it's still, he still gets defensive at times. Or, you know, I feel like he's not acting out, but like he's getting angry at me or there just isn't a lot of empathy going on.

Yeah. And so that gets confusing because she's like, what I asked for in the beginning of sobriety is there. Like, he's not doing the things he used to do. But at a heart level, at a relational level, something just feels off. Something feels unsatisfying. And that's the incomplete recovery I'm talking about. And really what we're looking at there is There's a difference between the behavioral change of getting sober and the heart change. And that's the deeper character work that needs to happen.

And that is where sometimes men will stall out, or they may not even know that that's a very vital step of the full recovery process. And there is a lot about healing from betrayal and from addiction and all that that is very counterintuitive. Yeah. But this is one of them. It's that sobriety is not the finish line. Sobriety is the starting line. Yeah. That's where the real work actually begins. And so just putting some language around that, especially for betrayed partners who are feeling like, I don't know what else to ask because behavioral-wise he's doing what I want him to, but there's still something that just, it just, it just kind of makes them squirm and they don't even usually have words for it.

But that's what I'm talking about.

Tara McCausland: Yeah. Great overview. Sometimes I've heard women say, he's sober, but he still really doesn't feel safe to me. He's still blaming. He's still sometimes manipulative, again, defensive, really playing the victim. And this is a real problem because again, when you think that sober is the goal, And yet you're like, relationally, we are so far from where we wanna be. Like, I don't know if I, I don't know if I wanna be married just to someone sober.

Like, I'm curious if, could you share anecdotally maybe an example of someone you've worked with where they've consistently come to you and said, he is working recovery, but something is missing. And what were some of the telltale signs were? It was just sobriety and the heart wasn't changing. Does that make sense?

Tammy Gustafson: Yeah, it does. I don't think I'll give a specific example, but in general, here's kind of the things that I'm hearing. He still gets angry. He still, I try to bring up, uh, what he has done and he gets defensive and he says, why can't we just put that in the past? Like, why, why aren't you farther along in your healing? This might be pressure to forgive. Or a pressure to trust. Like, I, that was in the past.

I'm not doing this anymore. So like, why can't you just move on? Why can't you just trust me? When are you going to trust me again? And so, but there's also that safety thing of maybe he's not, maybe he's not relapsing. And in this case of incomplete recovery, he's probably not relapsing, but there might still be boundary things that just don't feel right. Maybe he's just. Yeah. You know, he's not telling you about the conversation he had with his female coworker when you've asked him to do that.

And maybe nothing's going on and you might be like, I don't think anything's going on, but I asked for that and he's not doing it. Or maybe he's going along and things are fine. And then all of a sudden he gets really stressed and he is doing things that remind you. Yeah. Of some of the old patterns. Like maybe he's withdrawing, or maybe he's starting to lash out at the kids when they're getting frustrated. It's the character change and the relational change that has not happened.

What this might look like too is there's still a fight in him of really breaking. Mm-hmm. Of really being, not just saying I'm sorry and not just owning it and saying, yes, I did that. But it's like that deep breaking where he's no longer armoring up about you or about what he did. He's no longer resentful at you for your emotions. That's what we're looking for is this humbleness and really focusing on not protecting himself. Yeah.

but focusing on the hurt that he has caused you and showing up for that.

Tara McCausland: Yeah. Well, at SA Lifeline, we like to say, how do you know if an addict is in recovery? They're humble, honest, accountable, seeking to connect with God and others. And that humility piece really shines through. And someone might be listening to this and thinking, why do you expect me to be perfect? I can't ever get angry. I can't ever get defensive. It's like, No, but there's generally this level of consistency where even if you do get angry, you can come back and make amends, right?

And be accountable. Why do you think so many couples assume sobriety automatically equals safety?

Tammy Gustafson: Well, I wanna answer that, but I wanna go back to the question you just said of that guy saying like, what are you saying? I have to be perfect? Yeah. That is the perfect example of somebody who is in complete recovery. Because if you're asking that question, then by that very question, I can tell your heart's not in the right spot. And so, and that is an example of armoring up. That's the defensive posture we're talking about.

And if that's, then you gotta look at it and whatever reason why you're armoring up, whatever reason why you're still putting up that fight. Yeah. That's where the work is. That's exactly where the work is. But going, moving on to your question, well, I think we all think sobriety is the goal early on, right? I think we all think like life blew up when there wasn't sobriety. Life blew up when there was acting out behaviors, whatever those were.

And so I think it's natural, just kind of that initial gut response. Well, if this is what's broke, this is what needs to be fixed. You just need to stop. And so I think it's actually a very Normal and understandable reaction. But then particularly for betrayed partners, once they get that sobriety mark, it's like, oh, this still, this does not feel good. And you know what? My mark, my bar before might've been you not acting out, but you know what?

You just destroyed and shattered my life. And that's no longer good enough, right? That's not just acting out. Like, That's not enough if you're still being angry and whatnot. Like, I need a full heart change of you to know that you're safe, which is what you went back to, what you were talking about, Tara, before. It's like, I need safety now. And the only way for the relationship to heal after such a shattering is for there to be safety and for there to be honesty.

And so it's not enough just to stop breaking our relationship agreement, our marriage vows. Because that doesn't create safety. So I think that is at the core of incomplete recovery, is that there is still a lack of safety there. There's still no place for her to rest.

Tara McCausland: Yeah. A couple of things. How might a therapist or a sponsor, for instance, if someone's working 12-step, help someone that's addicted Maybe we'll start there. And then a betrayed partner identify incomplete recovery.

Tammy Gustafson: I think for a therapist or for a sponsor, one of the key signs is, is, is he angry? Is he defensive? Is he resentful? Is he armoring up? All of that kind of points to, is he self-protecting? And as long as he's self-protecting, He's not going to fully heal. And so I think that's the indicator. So whenever you're getting that defensiveness, if you're ever getting that, well, why can't she, you know, putting it back on him.

If you're ever getting that, you feel like you're hitting up and you have to like fight something. That's an indicator of like, there's something going on here. Like, what is the fight? What is the armoring up? What is the defensiveness? What are you trying to protect? And that's where you go. Yeah. That's where you go and help him. For a betrayed partner, I think it's the same way minus the helping him, like he needs help outside you.

But for the betrayed partners, you feel it. Like, and for you, I would encourage you, like, trust your gut when you're like, ooh, something is just like, no, I do appreciate all the work he's done and he has done a lot of work, but it just, there's just something in there when you feel yourself squirming and not being able to put words around it very well. Yeah. This is what we're talking about. Or also what I said before, if you feel him self-defending, then that's the indication.

And I would also say, like, I do have compassion and understanding there because there's a lot about this process that is counterintuitive and just doesn't make sense. And a lot of times what you need, or what a lot of men need, Is they need somebody to help them see that next step. And a lot of men might be scared and it might be hard for them, but they are willing to do the work to heal. And so having somebody come along them that can help point out the way and can help confront them when they are armoring up can go a long ways.

Tara McCausland: I love that. Well, and when we consider when someone has dealt with an addiction, we know that became the crutch, the coping mechanism. It was filling the gap for them. And when you remove the coping mechanism, life gets very hard. So I can empathize with that. And so we know we can't just pull weeds. We gotta fill it with something positive. We gotta plant flowers there. So if we're talking to the person struggling with an addiction, maybe if they see themselves armoring up, and I like how you're putting that, And hopefully there's some self-awareness there.

If they're recognizing they're doing this, what emotional or relational work might be missing when they're focusing on only stopping the behavior?

Tammy Gustafson: You know, I'm gonna credit Matthew Rapsmith with this. He said something that I thought was really profound and put this into words really well. He talked about there's a difference between performance-based recovery where they're doing it to perform. And everybody kind of starts here, right? Where they do it of like, when you think of performance is I'm doing this and now I get this, right? So we'll take whatever motivation we need in the beginning, but that only gets so far.

And if you stay there, then you end up armoring up. If you stay there, then you get stuck in incomplete recovery. And the shift that Matthew suggested, and I thought this was beautifully put, is shifting to an identity-based recovery. Mm-hmm. And that's going instead of, I'm going to do this because I have to perform and I have to do X, Y, or Z to get something or prevent something. Instead, it goes to that deeper place of, who do I want to be?

Who do I want to be whether my partner stays with me or not? Whether I get accolades or not? Whether she loves what I do and stays or whether she continues to be angry? Like, Her reactions make total sense because I hurt her. I'm not going to base my recovery off of if she is responding in a way that makes me feel good or not, right? And instead, I wanna go, I want to be a person of integrity.

I want to be a person who is free inside of myself. I want to be a person who is continually striving to be the best that I can be. And when you shift into that, that helps put the defenses down, and that helps shift into more of, I am doing this for me, and it's going to benefit everything around me, but I'm going to do this because that's the person I want to become. And I think when that's a fundamental shift, that can really change the course.

And if you shift into that identity, then you will do that deeper work. Yeah. That's part of that.

Tara McCausland: Really good. I wonder, and maybe I don't want this to be too like tangential, but is there an exercise that a person could do to help them kind of get more into an identity recovery?

Tammy Gustafson: Oh, I'm sure there is, but I don't have one off the top of my head.

Tara McCausland: I would just recommend if you are listening to this and you're the one struggling with an addiction, maybe journal about that. Who do you want to be? What are your values? And Are you going to choose to be in alignment with that? Because I think identity-based versus performance-based does make all the difference. And when we're doing things to get certain reactions from people or for outcomes that we hope, or to avoid consequences, that in and of itself is going to be a very shallow motivation and it won't last.

So I really do like that. So let's talk about safety again and how incomplete recovery might impact a betrayed partner's sense of safety and kind of prepping for this might be triggering us and how do we deal with this. So what are some ways partners may try to voice their safety concerns that feel dismissed or misunderstood? Because maybe there is good sobriety, but they're not feeling safe.

Tammy Gustafson: Well, I think anytime a partner is sharing their thoughts and their fears and their emotions, whether they're easy emotions to handle or not, that is emotional intimacy and that's a gift. So safety is the responsibility of the one who did the betraying, right? Yeah. And so it's very important that if you say something, that you do it. Because if you want to rebuild trust, if you want to rebuild safety, Then that is earned by you with consistent behavior over a long period of time.

And so being a safe person means that you are self-reflective. It means that you are showing up when you're gonna show up. It means that you do let her know if you've crossed a boundary. Or if you're struggling. It means that you're not angry and defensive. It's keeping her in your mind and understanding the shattering that your actions have caused and going, how can I help her now know that there is a place where she doesn't have to fear that this is going to happen again?

Yeah. Where she knows that she is seen, where she knows that I am doing my work. Those are all aspects of creating safety. I'm sure that wasn't an exhaustive list, but there's a few to start out with.

Tara McCausland: Yeah. And maybe this is a redundant question to be asking, but I think for some betrayed partners, because they've gone so long being gaslit and being dismissed, For a betrayed partner who, again, is she seeing her spouse doing the things, going to therapy, maybe going to 12-step meetings, but she's feeling something is off. What words of encouragement would you give to her to be able to say, this doesn't feel safe? Because she may not even recognize she doesn't feel safe.

How might you express that to a partner where you can give her some flags that she can look at in herself? Like, I don't feel safe, and put words to that. Does that make sense?

Tammy Gustafson: I think that it goes back to tuning into yourself because we are, especially if there's been gaslighting, then you've been trained and conditioned not to believe yourself, not to trust your gut, or When you've been told so many times that what you feel inside is not reality, then you're like, whew, I don't know. I don't think that most betrayed partners struggle with not knowing that they don't feel safe. I think that is a body-based thing. But I think they struggle with believing that it's okay that they don't because he's doing the work, quote unquote, doing the work.

But here's the thing. He can be going to all the counseling sessions, he can be doing all the workshops, he can be talking to a sponsor and going to the group meetings and not be sober. Like, just checking off the boxes of recovery work is not enough. And where you're going to feel that is you're gonna feel like if he's just checking the boxes and you're like, he's doing all the things, but if that's where you're at, then I would say that's a sign of incomplete recovery.

That's a sign that there's not safety. Where there is safety is you're gonna be like, Huh, he handled that differently. Oh, and you may not be ready to acknowledge that, but going like, huh, that was different. Like he didn't get defensive. Like, huh, he sat in my pain. And when I was angry, he didn't escalate. He stayed with me. Like those are the things that she's going to start to see where it's just going to be like the, huh.

That's what you're looking for. And you will feel More calm, or at least less uncalm, for lack of a better term. And so noticing that at your body level is going to be really critical. It's going to be a good indicator. And for betrayed partners, one thing that will be helpful too is the sooner you can focus in on your nervous system and calming your nervous system. Mm-hmm. The better. It took me years. I was on the slow bus, so don't worry if you're on the slow bus.

But like, the sooner you can do that, the sooner you're actually going to be able to probably, um, see more accurately whether he's doing the work or whether he's not doing the work, the deeper work.

Tara McCausland: So what I'm hearing from you, give yourself permission to be okay with not being okay. Like not feeling safe.

Tammy Gustafson: Great summary. Love it.

Tara McCausland: And I think there's a lot to be said for that. When we feel those indicators in our body, being able to say, you know what, clearly my body doesn't feel safe and I need something different from him. And so maybe let's go there. Um, and you talked about the nervous system and learning how to calm our nervous system. And I know that's a big part of dealing with triggers. So let's talk a little bit about triggers.

We have a very mixed audience that's listening to this right now. Some people might be like, I know all about triggers. You can't teach me anything new. And some might be like, what, what's a trigger? So let's just start at the very beginning. Um, what is a trigger? How do they get activated and why are they so powerful for a betrayed partner?

Tammy Gustafson: Yeah. So triggers are reminders of something that happened in the past that was really painful. So a trigger is not if he relapses, that's not a trigger. That's a new wound. But like a trigger is when you are, you could be asleep or he could be asleep in bed beside you and you think about something and all of a sudden it floods back up. Or it could be you're driving down the street and you pass the hotel he went to with his affair partner and that triggers everything.

So that's kind of what a trigger is. From a definitional standpoint. The way I view triggers though is that triggers are spotlights on areas that still need healing. So when a trigger happens, it's because whatever that is there, it still needs more love and more time and more focus and more words and more attention around it because it's just not healed yet. It's like if you have a wound on your body or a cut on your body, and then you bump into it, it's like, it's not doing anything wrong, and you weren't doing anything wrong by it being bumped, but it's just saying like, ooh, that cut is still there.

It's still open, or it's just starting to scab over. And so it needs more focus. Maybe it needs some more medicine. And so when something gets bumped and it hurts, That's just an indication of like, okay, I need to slow down and focus on that. Now, having said that, because this is my story too, right? And so triggers, I hated triggers. That was the thing that took me out the most because it feels like you are back at square one.

It feels like all progress is gone and it's never going to get any better. So triggers definitely can bring you to your knees, but I just want to offer a different way of looking at them that actually they're showing you. They're like, hey, I need some help over here. I need some attention over here. From a neurological perspective though, and I think this is very important because a lot of times there can be shame around triggers of like, oh my gosh, like we were doing so well and now I'm triggered and whatnot.

Or there's shame from him of like, why do you keep bringing this up? So it's important to know That a neurological level, what's going on is your brain is constantly scanning for signs of threats, right? And so when your brain comes across something that is a perceived threat, then it immediately fires you into fight or flight mode. So for those betrayed partners listening, when you get triggered and all of a sudden you're flush and your heart is pounding and you're having a hard time getting your breath, all those physiological symptoms.

Yeah. And the fight, flight, freeze, appease, you know, all of those different ones. That is not something you're choosing. Okay? That's your brain's response to perceived threat. And it's important for the betrayers also to hear that as well and go, that's just what's happening in her brain. And so the way to calm triggers, 'cause that's the million-dollar question, right? How do you make it stop? How do you feel better? Yeah. It's to focus on safety. You go into a trigger because your brain perceives threat, feels like it's not safe.

So to calm it, you need to calm your body and calm your brain. At a fundamental level, that's what's going on. So does that answer your question?

Tara McCausland: Yeah, that was a great initial definition of what a trigger is, like what might be actually happening in your environment. That might be triggering. Again, driving by the hotel where the affair partner was that night and you knew they were there. But the neurological piece also is really helpful to understand that partners need to be able to accept and acknowledge, I go into lizard brain when this happens. And while we want to be accountable for responses, we also have to give some self-compassion to A biological response.

Now, the hope is, is that as we get more healing, those triggers will come less and they won't be as intense.

Tammy Gustafson: The beautiful thing is you can heal from trauma, and there's a lot of trauma modalities and treatment that can help, like EMDR and whatnot. But honestly, after betrayal, I think the best healing is done in relationship when he is safe with help. And so Triggers don't go away by themselves. Trauma doesn't heal by time alone. Neither does grief. Like this whole idea of time heals all wounds. That's not true, but wounds can heal. It does need intentional focus and help.

So yes, this idea of triggers get less frequent, they get less intense, all of that. That is true if there's healing work done. Because if we go back to that analogy of the cuts on the arm, Like if those are healing, then eventually when you bump that area, it's not gonna hurt. Like you might notice it or you might have a scar and you might be like, ooh, I remember that, but it's not going to hurt.

However, if that cut in the arm keeps getting cut, if it gets infected, then it could just keep going and going and going. And that's not what we want, right? Mm-hmm. But the beautiful thing is you can heal it, but that's why you have to go back to the source of the trigger because that's where the wound is.

Tara McCausland: Yeah. And again, it's just a spotlight, right, on something that still needs some love, some care. Okay. So we know that if there's incomplete recovery, we're going to most likely have continued safety issues. Can you walk us through how a betrayed partner might respond to a situation that can help her and maybe even help the relationship? We know it's not her job to fix him, but there's a dynamic here. So what type of response to a trigger can be helpful for her and might be helpful relationally?

Tammy Gustafson: So I'm hedging a little bit at that question because it still feels like she has to respond in a certain way to help him. So I'm hedging a little bit at that because here's Here's the thing. There, there are boundaries within ourself as a betrayed partner. There are boundaries within ourself, right? And for me, what I tell my clients is you gotta keep this away from kids. We don't wanna hurt them in the process. So if, if there needs to be an argument or yelling or whatever the case may be, you do that in private, right?

And don't damage property. Don't hurt him. Yeah. Right? It just makes things more complicated. So we can have boundaries in ourselves. It's not a free-for-all. However, I have no problem with it being big. I have no problem with a betrayed partner expressing her anger. I have no problem with a betrayed partner when she can't find any other words and she is swearing. Personally, I don't have a problem with that. And I think that's where some people get a little squirmy of going.

A lot of times the pressure is for betrayed partners to, to really kind of lessen their intensity. And one thing that was really helpful for me and has been really helpful for a lot of my clients, and this comes from a concept by David Clark, And this idea of pumping the well of your soul dry. And the reality is, is that when betrayal happens and you find out about what your partner has done, all of that hurt and pain and nasty and all of that gets dumped into the well of your soul.

You now have all this. You didn't do it. You didn't ask for it. It wasn't your fault. But it will poison you and it will suck the life out of you if it stays there. And so you've gotta get all that outta you. And how do you do that? You do that by putting that into words. You do that by putting your emotions into words. You ask the questions, you express your emotions. It has got to get out of you.

And there needs to be freedom for her to express her pain and her emotions. And when she gets triggered, and those things will come up and those will come up big. Yeah. And staying within her own boundaries, right? So there's not extra harm. Don't have an affair. Don't, you know, all that kind of stuff. But there has to be space for her to really express herself. And it is on him who did the hurting to look at her and go, this is the pain I have caused.

She is not a terrible person. This all makes sense. And I am going to, I am going to sit here and I'm gonna provide a container where she can be heard. And she can be accepted in this. And so, so that part, that part's on him. She's got to pump the well of her soul dry or it will, it will kill her. So I don't know if that's the question you asked, but there we go.

Tara McCausland: Well, so I think it's a good thing to bring up because I think we can go too far on either side on the pendulum where we have No boundaries. And we, we say, I'm the victim here. I've been betrayed. You turned my life upside down. And so I am going to give you hell. And that whatever feels good to me is okay. And that might look like throwing things and raging and swearing and, and becoming violent.

And I think we both agree that that's not acceptable. That's not staying with, um, And then on the other side of the pendulum, we might have the extreme of, I can't express any anger or disappointment or resentment. That I certainly can't swear or throw things ever, right? Because that would be bad, and I would be a bad person. And then maybe I would deserve what had happened. You know, we have these extremes that you might go to.

And so maybe, I mean, you're the therapist. Yeah. I'm not a clinician, but I like to find a Goldilocks zone here where there's a recognition for us as if we've been a betrayed individual, that we also have the opportunity to choose our identity-based recovery and how we want that to look and how we want to behave. And what are our boundaries around pumping out that well? Because we've got to, we've got to express the feelings. Yeah.

Which, if you know, if you're not going to feel it, you're not going to heal it. But in what context and how are you going to do that? So I think we're both speaking the same language here, but sometimes it can be hard because we are often taught these extremes and we're not going to find healing in either of them for ourselves or in the relationship.

Tammy Gustafson: Because, yeah, because what you're talking about, raging is not healing and raging is scary. Yeah. So that's not what we're talking about. So that is part of a betrayed partner creating her own self-boundaries, right? Because that is important. And when somebody is just feel like they are outta control and out, then that's raging and that's not helpful. And where people often get stuck in this process is either in the area of anger where, and And I think where a lot of clinicians get really squirmy is that when we say anger, we're not talking about rage.

Those are 2 very separate things. Like, anger is a very important emotion. Rage is when it's out of control, and rage is one version of getting stuck because you're not actually processing at that point. Yeah. And like the other extreme, what you're talking about is I can't I can't do this at all. That's a person who's disconnected from their anger. They disconnect from their anger, they're going to cycle in sadness. So absolutely, you are totally right. Like, we don't want either extreme of that.

However, I think as a society, we get more squirmy the more expressive a woman gets. And so we just have to be aware of that. Yeah.

Tara McCausland: And so wherever you're at with your response to triggers, I think again, it's good to sit in some self-compassion, recognize the wound, the hurt, and also identify your values and who you wanna be through this process. He may or may not heal. The relationship may or may not survive, but you can do your own healing. And I think that takes me to the next question. So. Once we're out of that lizard brain, give us a couple of exercises that we can do to get back into our body when we're feeling triggered.

And what is a healthy healing way to move through a trigger?

Tammy Gustafson: Calming the nervous system. There's a lot of really good things that are helpful with that, because again, it's all about safety. And so there's 2 ways of calming. You can calm top-down where you try to calm your brain and then it calms your body. Or you can calm from bottom up, which is you calm your body and that calms your brain. That is actually more effective. So if you can focus on calming your body, that is going to be the fastest route.

So if you're doing it by yourself, exercising is a great one. Getting out and running is good. Swimming is good. You're also doing bilateral stimulation with those things. So that is very helpful. One hack that can help calm you really quick is you get a big bowl of water, put ice in it, and then you hold your breath and you put your face in. And that tricks the body into thinking it's like you jumped into an icy lake and it calms, it brings everything back to your core and it centers.

So that's a hack. Okay. There are other things that can be really helpful. Like some, those are all kind of things that we can do to calm our nervous system. It's also helpful to have outside help. So for instance, like fascia work can calm your nervous system very effectively and very quickly. And that's something that somebody else can help you do. Energy work, if you're, if that's something you're comfortable, Reiki can calm you really quickly. Neurofeedback is something that you could do.

So there's a lot of things that I really encourage people to try and find what works for them. Yeah. But having those things where you are calming the nervous system is going to be really helpful. And the reality is, is that especially early on, triggers might take 3 days to calm. And in that time, then you need to do a lot for the betrayed partner. Focus on what do I need to feel safe right now? That's the question.

And if you can express that to your partner as well, saying, here's something that would help me that you could do to help me feel safe. And here's the beauty of triggers. As you continue to heal, triggers can become an opportunity for emotional intimacy within the coupleship if he is safe. And what I mean by that is if betrayed partners, if you can get to a place where you can say, hey, I'm triggered right now. And if you can say, this is what I need, this is what would help me feel safe.

That can be really helpful. And for the ones who did the betraying, if she is triggered and if you can show up and go, honey, I, I'm so sorry you're triggered right now. I realize that this is because of what I did. And I'm so sorry for that. And I just, I want you to know that I'm here. Do you need me close? Do you need me far away? That can become an opportunity. And once you start to come out of the trigger, Especially later, especially farther into healing, you're getting— it's that spotlight, right?

There's a direct beam on this area that is still hurting. And so then you guys can come back around once it's calm and go, hey, let's talk about this, or let's talk with your therapist about this. What about this? Like, what do you still need to express? What are some things that are still hurting? They can be absolute gold mines in healing if you let them be. Mm-hmm.

Tara McCausland: Oh, I love that. In our SAL book, we like to talk about this process. We call it surrender, and it's kind of a 12-step principle. But what you were saying, you know, getting back into our body when we're triggered can be sometimes as simple, depending on the level of the trigger, as pausing, breathing, and connecting with a safe person, maybe a sponsor. Or the God of your understanding. But I love the other suggestions that you made.

And having, I think, a list of things— this might be a just good practical thing to do— like, make a list of your go-to things that you would do as an individual if you're feeling triggered. What are the ways that help you get back into your body? I think it's really, really helpful to reiterate that this is a biological response, because I think so many Betrayed partners feel like, hi, am I crazy? Why do I respond to this with what may seem to others as just a minor trigger?

Tammy Gustafson: Yeah, I would just say that's normal. That's normal because those are deep areas of wounding. And so I appreciate that you brought up like a lot of women feel crazy. A lot of betrayed partners feel crazy and it's true, but you're not. It's true that you feel that way. But it's not true that you're crazy. And this is the level of wounding and hurt and pain. And so just really honoring that and having compassion with yourself too, of like, it makes sense.

It makes sense. And triggers are there for a reason. And again, you're not choosing to trigger. Triggers are the worst. They are so painful, right? So nobody chooses to get triggered. So having a lot of compassion with yourself And focusing on safety. What do I need to feel safe right now?

Tara McCausland: Yeah. And also you had mentioned this in your last response, but I think it's good to also remind those struggling with an addiction, like again, she may look crazy in that moment and remind us what a recovery response looks like from him when he sees that she is triggered and might be flying off the handle.

Tammy Gustafson: Yeah, I would encourage you, you need to see the pain. This is coming from lack of safety. This is coming from her world has been shattered, and she is trying to put those pieces back together. And a lot of times it comes out big and it comes out loud and it comes out messy, but you have to look behind that and see the pain that is driving that. And if you can see her heart and know her heart, in that and speak to that, you will do so much to help in this process.

That is an act of safety, of helping her create safety there. And you can do that.

Tara McCausland: Yeah. And that's not easily done. I recognize that when we see someone else having a big reaction, as humans, we tend to also react big. And I see that as a parent, I am frequently reminded with a certain child, unnamed child of mine, has big feelings. I can escalate with her, but I, I know that is not helpful. So if you are an addicted partner, you're working on your recovery, just remind yourself that the more you can be safe, especially in those trigger moments, that's going to speak volumes.

So thank you for speaking to both partners about that. So As we're wrapping up, Tammy, we've talked about incomplete recovery, and this is a real challenge for partners. We always ask the bookend question. What would you say to the person who's just starting recovery? And what would you say to the person who's been doing this work for a while and might need a little bit of a boost?

Tammy Gustafson: For those who are dealing with addiction, there will be a long period of time where if you're doing good work, she may not be able to tell you. But she sees it. When you are working hard, when you are shifting, when you are responding differently, she sees it. She feels it. And again, she may not be able to tell you for a while, but I just wanna encourage you to keep going. If she is still there, it's because she wants to be, because she is fighting for this.

And sometimes her reactions will be big and strong and they'll be scary to you. Yeah. But you have to realize she is still fighting for this. It's when she goes quiet, that's when you really need to get scared. And so I would encourage you to focus your recovery on who you want to be and do the work. And I would encourage you to look past whatever is coming out of her because of her pain. And I would encourage you to look past that and see her wounded heart and see if she's still there.

She's still— at least part of her, she still wants this. And she can heal. She can forgive. It is possible. So keep going. Keep going. And for the betrayed partners, I just want you to know that I see you. I see you and I hear you. And this is hard, and I know it's taking longer than you want it to. You are not the emotions you're feeling. I know you probably feel angry and sad and feel like you're falling through a black hole.

It is possible to get to the other side, and the only way through it is through it. You gotta lean in and do the work. For those who have been in it for a long time, or for those who are facing a lot of incomplete recovery, I see you. And the added relapses, the added safety breaches, can be even more painful than the initial. Trauma is cumulative. So I would encourage you that if that's you and your heart is so weary, and you are so weary of this, pay attention to your light inside.

Yeah. Honor your safety. Keep the bar high. Sobriety is not enough, not for your safety. And so it's okay to keep pushing. It's okay to say, hey, I need you to be safe. What you want and what you need matters, and you have great worth and value.

Tara McCausland: So powerful. Thank you so much, Tammy. Before I let you go, if people wanna connect with you, And if they want to get your new book, which you can tell us the release date of that, where can they find you if they would like to connect with you?

Tammy Gustafson: Yeah, best place is my website, tammygustafson.com. And my book, it's available for preorder on Amazon right now, Broken to Brave. And the release date is January 27th.

Tara McCausland: Awesome. Congratulations. Grateful for you for the work that you're doing in this field. And excited for your new book. Again, congratulations.

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