Embracing Humility in Recovery w/ Mitch H.

Narrator: This is Pathway to Recovery, an SA Lifeline Foundation podcast featuring hosts Tara McCausland, who is the SA Lifeline Executive Director, and Justin B., a sex addict living in long-term recovery. We have conversations with experts and individuals who understand the pathway to healing from sexual addiction and betrayal trauma because we believe that recovering individuals leads to the healing of families.

Jonathan L: Welcome to the Pathway to Recovery podcast. I'm your host, Jonathan L., and I am a recovering addict to sex and lust. Today I am joined by Mitch H., and I am super excited to have Mitch here. I don't know how long you've been in the rooms of recovery, but you joined the meetings and we've met in the same meeting. I feel like it's been a year now. Yeah, it's been a year.

Mitch H: It's been at least a year.

Jonathan L: Yeah, at least a year.

Mitch H: I started when you were, uh, you were moderating. Well, wow. I came back when you were moderating. Oh, wow. Oh, I did a little before that too. But yeah, it's been awesome to know you.

Jonathan L: I'm sorry that's where you landed. Uh, I hope that it's gotten better since then.

Mitch H: Oh no, it was fantastic.

Jonathan L: Mitch, would you mind kind of sharing a little bit of how you came to the Rooms of Recovery and a bit about yourself and your story?

Mitch H: Sure, I'd be happy to. So I am a sexaholic, a lustaholic. I had my first exposure to pornography. It was a storybook beginning, really, if that's such a thing. But little boy with his knucklehead neighbors, and I say that lovingly, ride to the secret place in the woods where the magazine was stashed. And we look at it and I'm instantly hooked. I went back by myself the next time. I couldn't— I mean, the feeling was— I've never experienced that.

I hadn't experienced that rush of emotions and forbiddenness and feeling alive and all of that that went along with it. And so I went back a few times just by myself. I don't think I ever went back with them because there was shame associated with it. Went back by myself, almost got caught. That probably would have been the best thing for my life, uh, in a way, but, uh, at least for the addiction. And then throughout my childhood and, you know, teenage years, I just had these occasional brushes with pornography, always wanting more and more, always wishing that I could find it.

I mean, back then— I'm not a young guy anymore— Back then it was only in magazine form. And, you know, I mean, probably on TV, but we didn't have that kind of TV. We didn't have cable. And so I would pine away for it. And I remember telling myself, man, if I had the courage, I'd go down to that 7-Eleven and I'd buy that magazine behind the blacked-out cover and I'd just take it home and gobble it up.

In the back of my mind, it was kind of like a someday, someday when you're an adult, you'll be able to do this. Well, That day came. When I couldn't find it, I resorted to other forms of chasing lust, certainly acting out with myself. I tried to draw what I could remember. I would do anything to try to scratch the itch. I remember returning from my mission for my church and feeling like free, like, well, now I can, I can step into this a little bit more.

But I didn't go right into it. I Did things like automobile magazines and other magazines that weren't what I considered full-on pornography, magazine racks, poster racks, and gradually just started taking steps more and more toward it. You know, this boundary crossed that, hey, I'm not— I wasn't going to do this thing after I served my mission for my church. You know, I'm not going to reengage. I'm hoping that this would have died. Nope. Wow. I eventually found a place that sold adult magazines, sold pornography, and I frequented that whenever I could.

That soon turned into, after I was married, was when I got up the courage, right? It's the strangest thing, but again, boundaries saying I'd never do it when I was married, to try searching it up on our home computer and started just dabbling in it a little bit, but could never really do it for very long. And because somebody was typically home or it just didn't last that long. One of the big boundaries I crossed was trying to do it at work to see if I could get caught, fearing maybe the penalty that I would be fired.

But I tried it anyway and, and tried to make it look like, I think, like it was an accidental brush with it just to test out our IT department to see what they would do. And yeah, they did nothing. And then it was full-on, full-on acting out, staying at work late, lying about why I was there, going back because I left something at work. Why did that take you an hour, honey? Oh, well, I couldn't find it.

I mean, it was just crazy. I was in full-on addict mode. Spent a long time in that mode. Realized that I had a huge problem. Talked to church leaders and each time said, well, oh, I'm finally free. That's never going to happen again. because of that fear and then that relief when I didn't get, you know, the punishment that I thought I deserved. I think I'd talked to the same church leader 2 or 3 times and realized that that wasn't working and thought, I have to tell my wife.

Yeah, it was back in the, I have to do something that scares me so bad that it'll scare me straight, thinking that that would solve my problem. And I remember just laying on my bed squirming, wanting to crawl out of my skin the night that I had said I would do it. It has been a rough road since that time. The wreckage that that created has been something to be dealt with, I guess is the best way to say it.

It's been a challenge. My wife was initially very supportive and loving, but I continued to struggle. Once again, the fear and the shame of doing that did not cure my addiction at all. And I found my way back. So there was— Yeah. There was couples therapy, and I made some good progress for a year. Then I found my way back after years and started talking to church leaders again. They introduced me to the church's addiction recovery program, and I went to that and got initial lift for a little while.

I made it to step 4, and I remember thinking, this is actually crazy that I am going to tell anybody besides a church leader this nonsense that I've been doing my whole life. I got some really good traction, but it was the same kind of thing. It was like, whew, I've done something really scary, but I'm committed. And why would I do all this if I wasn't serious? But even after that, I quit working the steps eventually and fell into relapse.

So I had about 5 months, a little over 5 months of sobriety, and then relapsed. And then this pattern of relapsing and going to meetings started for me. And that lasted a long time. I remember specifically thinking, you know, I cannot stop this. Nothing I have tried has stopped this. And I remember, you know, in my prayers, I would, I would tell God, okay, that was the last time. I am not doing it again. I've learned my lesson.

I've got my fill. And I just, I couldn't. And I remember very clearly kneeling and telling him, I cannot tell you I will never do this again. I just can't tell you that. I've told you that so many times and gone back on my word. But I said I promised I would be honest and never— well, it was really, I promised I would never quit trying. And then I made a commitment to myself that I would be honest.

And so that involved me every 2 to 3 weeks admitting to my group that I had relapsed again, finding different ways to say it. You know, I mean, how am I going to say it this time? Well, guess what? It's me again. Broken record, Groundhog Day, whatever you want to call it. Yeah. That went on for quite a long time until I met a sponsor who asked me some really key questions. Number one was, what are you willing to give up for recovery?

That was a pretty scary question because I thought, well, is he going to ask me to sell my favorite car, quit my job, sell my house, move somewhere? All these things. He can ask me to never be on the computer again. He asked me to get a dumb phone instead of a smartphone. I had no idea, but I knew I couldn't quit. And the thought came to me, Mitch, you'd be a fool if you said, I'm not willing to do this.

So I did. Turned out it was none of those things, but it was being willing to do whatever it took in the moment to recover. It was being willing to make the calls and journal and do the step work and to become repeatable and accountable. He helped me define my sobriety from just, you know, the real obvious stuff to taking intentional steps toward less. That was super helpful. And then away on this journey we went, and it has— it's been amazing.

And I stand here today on the recovery path grateful to feel God's love and the love of a whole bunch of brothers, Him, you, these people that I call every day because it lifts me up so much. So I'm just super grateful for my story. And I started in the beginning talking about I wish You know, that that little boy had got caught and, you know, saved my life, if you will. Hmm. But the connection that I have found with God, my higher power, and with brothers has been the most special thing in my life.

And yeah, this was the vehicle I had to drive to get to know God, my higher power. And I wouldn't change it, as painful as it has been, and as much that has to be done, and as much work is there left, and as much relationship building. Needs to be built. I mean, I would not change it. So I'm grateful.

Jonathan L: That's awesome. And Mitch, I know you've done some some moderating for a bit too. How long has it been? What's the sobriety at this point?

Mitch H: I am at, I think, going to be 870 days tonight.

Jonathan L: 870 days, which yeah, I mean, for anyone listening, and and this is I want to bring this up because I know that there are plenty. who are in that same cyclical feeling, thinking that's never going to end. So just take note, you know, we got Mitch here tonight and I'm going to blow up his ego for just a second right before I ask him to talk about our main topic, which ironically enough, when I thought about the pieces of the recovery puzzle and this one came up, I thought of you pretty immediately for this one.

Humility is the piece of the puzzle that we're looking at tonight. And specifically, I want to kind of dive in on your concept of what humility is. I think there are a lot of common misconceptions about what it means to be humble, but I'm curious on your thoughts. Tell me a little bit about what you feel like it means to be humble.

Mitch H: Before recovery, I thought it meant just not being arrogant, or maybe being soft-spoken, or being meek. And I stumbled upon this definition in the recovery materials. I think this was in Step into Action, a member share that Somebody said it's seeing things as they really are. And I know that for me, the ways that I float away from humility are either in self-aggrandizement, becoming puffed up or prideful, or self-loathing or self-pity, or blaming other people. And whenever I do that, it's because I'm not seeing clearly.

I am at that moment unconscious and unaware of the circumstances. And whenever— Hmm. And I love that definition. And whenever I can think of the things as they truly are, it brings a realness and an understanding of what is real to me. And then it seems like humility falls into place if I'm taking somebody's inventory and the thought comes to me, well, hey, they're really struggling in this area that you're judging them for. Immediately, I back right down.

And I'm more empathetic because I struggle and they struggle. And so I think the seeing things as they are connects me because I am— and I say this lovingly to myself— I'm a hot mess. And so seeing anybody else that is that way, I'm like, okay, we connect, we have something in common. Yeah, I love that.

Jonathan L: I've heard it said very similarly where it's being humble is being right-sized, but seeing things as they really are, same idea. Yeah. And I want to point Going back to when you gave a recounting of your experience, you were very candid, but also expressed where fault lied. And you took accountability, which I think was really great throughout that whole discussion. With that, how do you feel that humility ties into— and I'm going a little off script here because I'm just thinking as you're talking, but how do you feel that humility ties into things like being fully accountable?

And seeking a connection with God? Because I felt like I heard that in your story, but I'm wondering if you could dissect that a bit.

Mitch H: Well, the reasons that I don't want to be accountable most times is because I want to protect my shine. I want to look like something I've not. So there I go floating away again. And when I float away from honesty and from truth, I float away from other people and I float away from God. I really float away into isolation. That's where I drift. I become something that I can't look in the mirror. I'm like, yeah, I said all that, but it's not real.

And I know God knows it's not real. And then, and then it means that there's, you know, work paddling upstream to get back to what's real and accurately represent myself to other people. And that's honestly, I'm lazy. That's not worth it. It's not worth it. So Yeah, honesty helps keep that part of what's, what really is. And that's what helps keep me humble.

Jonathan L: Yeah, I love that. The literature reads exactly kind of like what you're saying, that humility is not a weakness, but a tremendous strength and a clear recognition of what is and who we are, followed by a sincere attempt to become what we could be. And so I want to kind of pull into that because humility then is a key foundational piece of recovery, right? So curious a little bit here, an order of operations. Maybe this is just a silly thing to dig into, but when you look at recovery, do you see that it's possible without humility being the first piece?

Or is there stuff that comes before that? I mean, if you were to order it, do you feel like humility has to come first?

Mitch H: When I first thought about this, I thought, well, honesty has to come first, but if I, if I can't be humble, I can't be humble enough to be honest, I think. So there was a lot of times where I was not honest, and the phrase I used in my mind was, well, I can keep pushing this feeling that I need to speak up, or this confession, or, you know, this admission that I need to make. I can keep pushing it down, and, you know, if I can get 2 or 3 weeks between me and just what happened, I'm, I'm gonna feel okay about it.

And then it'll be bygones be bygones. But again, that was me trying to protect some version of, of myself. And I can't recover that way because then my backpack is full of rocks. I'm, I'm adding in rather than taking out. So yeah, I think the very first thing and, and step one. Yeah. is to admit that I'm powerless and my life is unmanageable. And there isn't any progress in, for me, if I can't realize, you know, where I am starting at the rock bottom, the realization that I can't, which is fundamental to the next one, which is my higher power can.

So yeah, for me, this means that all I've tried, my very best thinking, my very best efforts have basically gotten me nowhere, or circled back, circled back to where I, where I was. So it's been important for me to let go of everything I thought I knew, and everything I tried, and just to do what God wanted me to do, but especially what my sponsor wanted me to do. Like, there was a lot of things I'm like, whoa, oh my word, what am I doing?

And it was only humility that said, okay, stick in here. Because remember, Everything you tried hasn't given you what you wanted, hasn't given you recovery yet. Yeah. Wow.

Jonathan L: As you spoke, I just thought of this because we recently had an episode where we discussed the puzzle piece of time in the recovery puzzle. And you just enlightened me a little bit of this idea. It's almost like a garden where, yeah, if you give it enough time, something will grow in a garden. But if you're not humble, if you're not accountable, if you're not doing all these other things first, Then really what is going to grow in that garden, right?

It's, you have to plant the right seeds in the garden and then give it time. So I loved that you talked about this, like, well, if I just give it 3 weeks, I'll feel okay. Or it'll be, there'll be enough buffer there that it's not constantly pressing on me, I guess. Right. Yeah. And you got to clear that backpack of all the rocks. That's such a cool concept. I love that. And so let's talk about clearing rocks because I think that's a great kind of step into this next idea that I want to ask you about, which is that in step 5, We're meant to admit the exact nature of our wrongs to God, to ourselves, and to another human being.

And obviously you could approach this with that begrudging mindset. You've talked about it a little bit of like, all right, well, I have to do this, right? Or there's one founded on humility. And, and you've obviously got some experience with this from what you've talked about and in your journey. I'm curious, let's talk practically here. How do you bring yourself to a healthier place when taking this step? Like, It's so easy to already be in that begrudging mindset.

Is there a way to shift to the humble mindset?

Mitch H: It feels like to me there was this huge deep breath with Step 1, Step 2, and Step 3. Like, okay, I've already crossed the bridge. I remember my sponsor asking me multiple times in the work, like, are you willing to be all in on this step? Are you willing to do this? And Step 2, are you willing to come to believe? Are you willing to learn to see God differently? Step 3, are you willing to trust Him? And my answer resonated with every time with a thought that was, why would I come this far and then cheat myself?

Like, if I'm gonna do this, and that's to the half measures of Ellis, nothing. So at some point it was that big deep breath that, okay, I'm gonna undergo a radical transformation and I really do want this gone. I really do. Not want to struggle the rest of my life. I really want to stop hurting people. I want to stop hurting myself. I want to have confidence again. I don't have confidence when I struggle with this.

But so step ones through three is where I really had to take that deep breath. And then I think there was a difference in, and I'm going to call it the second time around because the first time around I made it to step eight without a sponsor. And I may. Uh, reference that later. But my first time I tried Step 4 in this first time through, it was more like a Step 1 inventory. I just wrote out a story and shared it with somebody.

I didn't have really the framework. And then when I heard what it was gonna be the second time through, I'm like, wow, that is so much. My sponsor had given me, you know, 4 different areas to search myself. And there was a quota of how many things I needed to write down. And, and he didn't hold me rigidly to it, but it's like, hey, like, don't cheapen this. And so again, it was that whole, okay, I'm not, I am not going to cheapen my recovery because I'm putting this much into it.

And so I think that was just, that felt like a muscling up, maybe not so much like humility, but here we go. But humility had to be the key early on to keep me engaged in that activity. Yeah. Yeah.

Jonathan L: What's beautiful about that statement that you made is just saying, Practically here, what's worth more, my pride or this recovery I put so much work into, right? And it's like a mantra almost, but you've got this systematic way that you've discussed here that let's put ourselves in the right mindset of saying, well, if my recovery is a valuable gem, am I really willing to throw it away or disfigure it?

Mitch H: Yeah. Yeah. So then I think with that as the background, that was fuel, if you will, to continue to be humble. It's the first time I've said it that way. And I don't know if it really works that way. We have to look at all of these principles that we talk about in recovery. These things really do become real, like the one day at a time and the Serenity Prayer and believing that God loves us for who we are and connection with Him.

You know, believing that God is holding us so tightly and so strongly that we, as, you know, divine children, can stand on a firm platform. These aren't my words. These are in a book that I'm reading. I should give credit to that book. but can stand in a safe place. And so it's an identity thing there at that point. It's, I'm not trying to protect who I'm not. I'm trying to acknowledge who I am and not be more or not be less.

Again, it's that right-size thing. And in that environment, I can absolutely say everything I've done.

Jonathan L: I mean, it's just incredible because you might think that humility is some sort of submissiveness, but it's actually A core principle of confidence, right? I know exactly who I am. I know exactly what I can become. And there's no lying or hiding here. There's power in that. That's incredible. Yeah.

Mitch H: And it's a coming to believe. I want to say, like, I just realized this. The coming to believe that a power greater than me can restore me to sanity is a coming to believe that I can be restored to sanity. It's a coming to believe that I'm worth restoring to sanity. It's coming to believe in the future me.

Jonathan L: That's amazing. So then you take this new you that's fueled by humility and connection with a higher power over time. What does that then do for relationships? Because we're looking at having this and it's kind of in the books, it says humility helps foster true kinship with man and God, improves personal relationships. I mean, how have you experienced that?

Mitch H: I think it helps. It really helps with connection. I mean, that's realizing and trying to keep in front of me all the time who I am and what I am. If I'm doing that, and I'm far from perfect, and I still float away all the time, and thank goodness for surrender. But if I do that, I stay in that place that I mentioned that we were in when we did the Step 4 and the Step 5 work. So I think it's all about becoming a vessel that we can be used by our higher power.

Yeah. So as a sponsor, I'm a transmitter of sorts, seeking to communicate what another person needs, maybe through my unique experience, through my own understanding. And as a sponsee, I'm a receiver to receive what I need to hear, to do, and recover. And humility requires both of us to set aside our will so God can work the magic in us. It's not about us. It's not about me. I am not recovery. I'm just going to share what's worked for me.

And there have been so many times I've stood there almost slack-jawed by, wow, did I just say that? As a sponsee tries to give me credit for something that I didn't make up. I'm like, okay, I didn't. That wasn't me. But you're welcome. So—

Jonathan L: Yeah, you become a conduit for a higher power, right? Yeah. That's actually where I was going into and tying into this really is the— while you have this, this true kinship with man and God, I mean, That's kind of the pinnacle of the sponsor-sponsee relationship, isn't it? When you can't get to your higher power, you go to your sponsor. What was it someone once said to me? They said, when you're in a stinking thinking, you should go talk to your sponsor, uh, or something to those degrees.

Mitch H: Uh, but yeah, for sure.

Jonathan L: To play on that, then you've seen humility play a key role in the sponsee-sponsorship, uh, relationship. Yeah.

Mitch H: Yeah. Oh yeah. I mean, I would say with my sponsor and he, he's so gentle and, and I just appreciate it. I mean, he will ask me, can I, can I make a comment? And I'm like, please, like, like we're not in this to protect my feeling. Tell me what you're seeing. We're in this because I want to see me better. And then he unloads this stuff, you know, and I'm like, wow. And then I'm writing as fast as I can, you know.

I think that as we see each other as we really are, as I see me as I am, and I see other people that struggle with the same thing I do, there's this kindness and connection, fosters empathy and understanding. It's such a safe place too. I want to say the sponsee-sponsor relationship is such a safe place. And at least my sponsor, and I need to work on this, I feel like, but at least my sponsor made it really safe by asking me if he could make suggestions or, you know, help me see things in a different way.

And truly, Yeah. Like, what a blessing, what a blessing in my life as God has spoken through him to hear things that I needed to hear. And yeah, I mean, I have no idea where I would be without this connection. And it's happened the other way as well, for sure.

Jonathan L: I want to dig into this now because there are some folks out there who are in the program, and for all they're trying and all they're hoping, it's very difficult to get into this space of humility. And You know, I've heard other men in the room say that this program just can't be worked without humility. Is that something that you agree with? Is there more nuance to that? I mean, what's your take on that?

Mitch H: Yeah, I completely agree with that. I just don't think that I can receive really well without being in a place of humility. You know, I think about before I had a sponsor, I was actively working and how quick I was, at least in my mind, to try to give advice, and then all the things that I tried that didn't work. The humility— there's just a— let's just admit that there's a lot of really, really tough things that have to be said and understood, even if it's just, this is what you're going to do next.

I mean, all right, here's the next step. Here's the next inventory, if you will, right? Whether it's writing your story the right number of words, writing the way that you've judged God, you know, analyzing your weaknesses, or making amends. I mean, all of those things. If you're coming at it from a point of arrogance, I don't know how you harness the power of God to help. I think that pleading and surrender in so many of those things was really necessary, meaning I didn't believe I could do it if I didn't first have God on board with me.

And I didn't believe, and I don't believe I can access his power If I'm not pulling down the barriers of my way instead of your way. I just don't think I can. I mean, when I go into something and I'm like, yep, I'm going alone, I'm like, well, we've seen what happens when I do that. And it's not, it's, it's not good. But there have been so many times, and that's one of the things I love about recovery, you know, and I remember a brother in part of my Step 3 I called, and I've mentioned this on the calls before.

Yeah. He said, the more I trust God, the more I find I can trust God. And I have found that for sure, that when I said, I will trust you, I will do it, here we go, that then there was time after time after time that I had to put him to the test. And I just never felt like I could do it if I was saying, I'm— and by the way, I'm going to put you to the test.

I'm going to do it my way. Okay? So you get in line behind me and do what I say. Yeah. And, you know, I'm like, this doesn't work. I had to be humble and do it his way, whether that was pleading for the words of what to say in my first amends or my last amends of Step 9. Like, give me the words, give me the courage. It had to be humility. I just don't know any other way.

Yeah.

Jonathan L: You brought up a concept that I'd never thought of before, but if we're not humble enough to listen to a sponsor, Or listen to a higher power and do as we're asked without forcing our way. I mean, what are we actually trusting them to do unless we do what they said? Otherwise we're just, we're controlling it, right? There's no trust involved in that. I want to say wild, but really just like a very holistic overview, a good take of what humility really looks like and how it functionally has to be a part of this.

Very cool. I love that. That's an insight that, uh, I'm going to come back and listen to this again just to hear that bit, because that way I can remember it. I've done a bit more reading, and one thing that I noticed is that humility and gaining greater humility is, and quoting from the book, is a lifetime job and an ongoing process. Now, I don't know about you, but usually when I've gotten pretty decently good at something, I had like a reflexive at doing it, like a muscle memory.

I start to think that I'm just, I'm good enough, right? Like there is a good enough way, right, to do things. And can that be the case with humble? Can you be good enough at being humble? Do you have to become more humble all the time? Or help me get an idea of this, Mitch. What does it look like?

Mitch H: Well, I would say, you know, as long as you pound your fist on the table when you say, I'm humble enough, darn it, then, then I think you're good. No, I mean, I think that this is like staying in recovery. Staying in humility is like staying in recovery. So what are the things that we do? And to me, the maintenance steps come to mind that, you know, the Step 10 and the Step 11, and then And I think the service in Step 12 and the sharing naturally bring it, but I think it's a lifelong process, meaning I don't think I'll ever be humble enough.

But I think if it's my prayer, and I just wanna say how grateful I am for the Serenity Prayer. Yeah. That we say, because there's just so much humility. I mean, that's completely thy will, not mine, and help me accept. But I think if there's this daily work, I think that we get those little nudges. If we work the steps honestly and with real intent, and if we repair what was missing, which is our connection with God, connection with our higher power, then he wants to keep that.

And I'm finding— and I want to keep that. We both want to keep that. And so then I feel like I get these little nudges all the time. Yeah. And humility is just one of them where, hey Mitch, you're out of line. Or did you notice that? Did you notice what you just did? For me, it's wow. It's wanting to take credit. It's wanting. So for me, this is how I know if I speak in church, it's wanting to hang around and get as many people to say, wow, that was such a great talk.

You know, I'm also a singer. So if I sing in church, it's strolling leisurely through, you know, wherever I was. And oh yeah, you know, but I caught one today that was a little bit more deceptive where I had made a mistake. Well, one of the processes at my work, we were a manufacturing facility, had shut down because I dropped the ball and I had not contacted one of our vendors that had the code to run a machine.

And people were freaking out and I was at work late because I had some medical stuff going on anyway. You know, that my first response was, hey, I'm on it, you know? And I call the vendor, I get the code, I send it out, and I looked like the hero, right? And then there, that, with that little nagging in the back of my mind, but Mitch, this was your fault. The reason they were shut down, this was your fault.

And everybody's like, oh, Mitch is on it. Mitch to the rescue. Woo-hoo. And, and in the back of my mind, I'm like, and it was my fault and nobody knows it. And I'm like, what do I do with this? And it came pretty clearly. Follow up with a text message and apologize. Say, hey, listen, the maintenance guys did come to me 3 times last week asking me for this code, and I forgot every time. I dropped the ball.

I'm sorry. And I decided in that moment, that's what I would rather be. I would rather be honest and humble about it and not float away. It's worth way more to me in that case to not inhale that you know, hero that rides off into the sunset dishonestly. And again, see, now I need to surrender because I feel like I'm awesome. See, I just did it. Look how good I am. Look how good I am, what I did.

But the reason I bring up that story is because I believe that it was God that prompted me, hey, you need to be honest. Like, it's not right for you to sit here and take all the credit when you caused the problem. And so I think he does that for us the rest of our life if we stay in recovery. and we stay close to him, he'll just keep nudging us on higher and higher with all of these other practices, whether I'm trying to get over my resentment or my self-pity or anything.

Like, dishonesty is one of my key weaknesses, and humility and— well, pride and ego, oh, I'm riddled with it. So anything I can do to see it and surrender it. I love— that was a surrender, wasn't it? Like, I love in the White Book, in The Solution, where it says, each step of surrender felt like it was killing us, but instead it was killing the obsession. And I do, I have an obsession with me. And so whenever I can do something to call myself out, it helps kill that a little bit.

Jonathan L: Not to pat you on the back too much, but like the idea behind this is that when you told that story, I didn't think Mitch is incredible. I thought, That's a way I could be better. Like, that's a good example of a way I could be better too, is taking that full accountability for, well, I was the one who made that mistake. I'm the origin of this issue, right? And being truthful about it too, because you weren't, you weren't taking credit for something that you didn't do, right?

Right. I mean, you did all of that. You both caused and fixed the problem, right? And that full ownership, that's right-sized, that's humble, that's, and that's what we want. And I think that's something that Anyone listening, I know I include myself, but anyone listening could learn from that. That's why those stories are so important and so good. So I appreciate you sharing that, Mitch, and this discussion on humility altogether. It's been enlightening and I am loving it.

The, before I let you go, would you believe it that like we've already been talking for quite some time now, which is— That's amazing. It just blows by when you're having fun. But, uh, I, I had 2 questions that I ask each person that we have on this podcast. And the first one is, I'm handing you a microphone right now, essentially. There are people who have never been a part of the program, people who are just coming into it.

What do you have to say to newcomers? What's your key advice to them as they come into the program and they're looking at it? What would you say?

Mitch H: I would say, start working, keep coming. I think maybe even before that, I would say, you have no idea how great your life is about to become if you will embrace these principles. You have no idea. What is waiting for you? Lots of times you're coming with sadness and despair and fear and self-loathing. And I would just say you're in the right place and be intentional and you're going to discover something that is so amazing. And you're going to discover love like you've never felt love.

And you're going to discover healing and you're going to discover a passion for change like, like you've never had. So keep coming and keep working because it's so good what's around the corner. And the other thing I would say is it's not gonna be this hard for that long. It's not gonna be this hard for that long, and it's just gonna be amazing.

Jonathan L: Yeah. And there are other people who have been coming for quite some time, and they might be in different places. You know, you've got people who are moderating, but you got some people who have been around for a while and they're bouncing in and out and it's a little difficult. But what would you say to some of the old timers if you had a chance to say something to all of them?

Mitch H: I would say, I love you guys. And thank you so very much for taking my call. Yeah. But like your wisdom and your experience and your love and your care. I love, and this is to the new guys too, I love that I'm part of something that's not just a little bigger than myself, that's a lot bigger than myself. I love the strength of the brotherhood. Last Tuesday, I was at a wedding reception of a niece and I was really hoping to make the Tuesday night 8:00 PM.

meeting, and it just kept going on and on, and it became prime time to interact with family members so that I had to miss the meeting. And I was so torn. I'm like, ah, I think I'm gonna go sneak out to the car and hop on the meeting. And then I thought, no, I'll, you know, like, this doesn't happen that often, Mitch. Like, stay with your family, duh. But what was interesting about that is that I thought, what a change that this brotherhood and these people have brought to me.

To changing from going to the meeting is a sacrifice to missing the meeting is a sacrifice. And I would just say thank you to everybody for that. I love the meeting. I love everybody involved in the meeting. So keep coming, please.

Jonathan L: Excellent. Hey, Mitch, thank you for joining me. Thanks for having this discussion. It was better than I had even anticipated, honestly. And, and again, stay humble, right? But thank you. Like, I love this.

Mitch H: And I want to thank you for picking out and making pearls of all this stuff that I said. Fantastic. I just really love speaking with you and for this opportunity and for your insights along the way. It's been great.

Jonathan L: No, well, I invite everyone who's listening to this to continue to walk this pathway of recovery with us. Together, we'll shine light into places that once felt dark. Together, we'll discover what's possible when we choose recovery, not just for ourselves, but the people we love and generations to follow. So Thanks for joining us on this episode. Let's take those steps on the pathway to recovery side by side.

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