Understanding Sexual Addiction and the Path to Recovery w/ Roy Kim

Narrator: This is Pathway to Recovery, an SA Lifeline Foundation podcast featuring hosts Tara McCausland, who is the SA Lifeline Executive Director, and Justin B., a sex addict living in long-term recovery. We have conversations with experts and individuals who understand the pathway to healing from sexual addiction and betrayal trauma because we believe that recovering individuals leads to the healing of families. Roy Kim is a former pastor and now a certified sex addiction therapist.

Tara McCausland: He has a private practice in Southern California, where his clinical focus is treating sexual addiction and infidelity trauma primarily through group therapy. His hope is that increasingly more churches in this generation will become a refuge and spiritual hospital for men and women with addictions and trauma. Roy loves Star Wars, enjoys podcasting. He's a proud stepdad and has been happily remarried to Jen for going on 5 years. Welcome to Pathway to Recovery. I am Tara McCausland, and a very warm welcome to my new friend, Roy Kim.

Thank you, Roy, for being here with me.

Roy Kim: Oh, thanks for having me. It's great to be here.

Tara McCausland: And thank you to our listeners for being here with us. This is our first full-length episode. We're very excited to be getting this Pathway to Recovery podcast up and going. But today we are going to focus our conversation around porn and sexual addiction, what it is, what healing in community looks like, what the recovery road looks like, and a lot of other things in between. I, I sent Roy the questions beforehand and I've got a tall order here, but I, I believe in you, Roy.

Roy Kim: Let's do it.

Tara McCausland: We'll cover a lot in 60 minutes. But before we really get going, I wanted Roy to tell us a bit about his backstory. Can you just tell us where you've come from and what brought you into this field of sexual addiction treatment?

Roy Kim: Of course. So, you know, I found out a bit later in my life that I am indeed a sexual addict. And, you know, my My road to developing this habit and this addiction started probably when I was in grade school, probably maybe 5th grade or so, where back in the day sleepovers were pretty popular. This is early '80s, right? So sleepovers during 5th grade. Some of my grade school friends would have parents who have Playboy magazines stashed away, and so when they were discovered, we would be just rifling through those magazines.

And this is kind of pre-hormonal, so we don't know what was going on, what we were looking at, but we knew that this was something intense. And then, you know, also back, back in the day, having access to R-rated movies on VHS and watching that during sleepovers and when parental supervision was not even on the radar. And so just kind of having our brains be overloaded with sexuality before we even understood what sexuality was really left an imprint.

And when I did become hormonal in my teen years, things got pretty escalated when it came to my just desire to consume more sexual imagery, whether it was actual nudity from having a, a pornographic magazine of my own, or whether it was even just getting JCPenney, Sears catalogs mailed to our home, to my parents, and me flipping through it. And there was lingerie sections and bra sections. And as a, as a young teen, just being enamored with like the body and letting my fantasies go wild.

And so it was just my pattern of objectifying women started at an early age and it just, it never got coached away. It was just unbridled. And then in college came the internet. And so once you have access to not just one magazine, or one catalog, but you're now having access to thousands of images and videos at the click of a button. Now the brain is really getting overloaded. And I felt like that was just something that became a personal secret of mine.

I did not talk about that with anyone. It was both thrilling for me, but it was also very shaming because, you know, my faith had started to develop maybe— I mean, even though I went to church since I was a kid, but, you know, really understanding who God was, probably starting in high school, there's a real confusion within where like I felt like I shouldn't be doing this, and yet I was already hooked on it. So I didn't understand the terms of addiction until, like I said, much, much later when I was actually doing a lot of training for becoming a sexual addiction therapist.

And I realized, oh wow, like I, I check all the boxes for someone who has a, a longstanding addiction. But I think what made me a little bit unique from some of my colleagues who also are in this field is that When I was married, I was betrayed by my then wife. She had a longstanding emotional and sexual affair. And that was so devastating for me. I became so traumatized that she would choose another person and to have all of her, her emotional needs met, her relational needs, her sexual needs met in another person.

when in fact she and I had made our vows to one another, was just so not understandable to me. And I was pastoring at the time during this affair. And so to have this scandal occur where the pastor's wife is having an affair with another person in the congregation was just devastating and scandalous. And It made me realize that, at least for the time being, the world was a very unsafe place to me. The world did not make sense to me.

It was, it was a place of trauma for me. The church was a place of trauma for me. And so to be on the other side of that, where I've since healed from the betrayal trauma, which took a— Yeah. Took a long time for me to get over. And I've also gone through the steps of going through recovery from my own sexual addiction, has brought me to a place where I really do enjoy working with folks who are either the addict or those who are experiencing some type of betrayal trauma, because there's a significant piece of me that relates to both parties.

Yeah. And I can empathize. I have a pain radar that's very sensitive to both types of experiences. And I just love working with folks on both sides because of my unique history.

Tara McCausland: Thank you so much for sharing all of that, Roy. I think that you are uniquely qualified, as you said, to speak to both sides because you've been on both sides of the equation. And that really is, even though you probably didn't see it at the time, a unique gift that you have as a therapist. 'Cause you can really understand where the betrayer and the betrayed are coming from.

Roy Kim: That's right, that's right.

Tara McCausland: As a former pastor, you see the moral challenges associated with this, but in society, often we will only categorize this as a moral challenge rather than a physical and a mental problem. And maybe this is a silly question, but is porn only problematic for religious people though? What are you seeing as a therapist as people are coming to you?

Roy Kim: Oh, I don't see that as a silly question at all. I treat those who are of a faith background and those who have zero faith background. And what I've noticed is that porn is not just looking at an image. Some people might explain it away as such, but it's not just looking at an image or a video. There's a lot of fantasizing involved, where you are placing yourself in a scenario where you are being sexual with another person.

And whether someone is of faith or not of faith, when, when your committed partner fantasizes about another person other than you, that's hurtful. feels like a betrayal. It kickstarts a lot of negative pathways, whether it makes you feel like, well, then what's wrong with me? Is there something less than about me that you would choose to be sexual in your head with another person? Or sometimes the, the porn can escalate into other forms of let's say, communication, such as sexting with another person, having sexual language with another person.

When, when just unbridled sex with anybody becomes unmonitored, there's a chance for this to really go off the rails and turn into behavior upon behavior that feels so betraying to a person. And I would also say that, again, whether a person is of the faith or not of faith, a lot of compulsive porn viewing leads to sexual dysfunction. It leads to this, this sense that I'm watching the most intense things, and when I'm actually engaging in healthy relational sex with a partner, it doesn't feel the same because it's not as intense as what I've been flooding my brain with.

And so we know that our sexual organs cannot help but be tied to what's going on in the brain. Like, the brain just— it— the brain controls everything, whether it is something that is very conscious or something that is very subconscious. And so when our brain is satisfied in this other intense virtual area, and, you know, we're also maybe trying to be satisfied in this very natural area, sometimes it can't catch up. And so we have sexual dysfunction, we have erectile dysfunction, we have women who just don't feel sexually satisfied because they are so engrossed with these other images or these storylines that are so ideal and fantastical for them.

So On many levels, this is not just something that plagues people who are of faith, but it really— humankind.

Tara McCausland: Roy, thank you so much for that explanation. I think it's critical for us to recognize that while there may be increased shame around pornography use for people of faith because there is a disconnect between values and behavior, the fallout in using pornography is negative across the board for all people, especially when we get deeper into these behaviors that are outside of the, the norm of healthy intimate relationships. Because we also know, as we'll discuss here, that, um, the brain doesn't just want more, it wants different.

Yeah. And that is where we get into real trouble. So let's, for a moment, let's define sexual addiction. The National Council on Sexual Addiction and Compulsivity has defined sexual addiction as engaging in persistent and escalating patterns of sexual behavior despite increasing negative consequences. That was a definition that came out in 2011. Now that's, that's kind of a basic definition. What would you say are the then telltale signs for individuals using and for the loved ones affected by this problem?

Roy Kim: Right, right. So that definition, wow, 2011. So it, it has aged well. I think it still applies. Most people will find that the characteristics of a sexual addiction match what other addictions look like. You know, substances, gambling, video gaming, especially these days. It seems to match that concise definition. And so what that— if I were to spend some time to think about what that looks like, a person might be like, for example, if I— If I go back to when I was younger and I stumbled upon an R-rated movie and it's got some sexually explicit scenes in it.

Okay, now my— you've got my attention, right? So my brain is now caught in here, but I'm not yet addicted until I am trying to find ways to either rewatch that scene, which I definitely did. I would find ways to, you know, play the VCR, pause, rewind again, watch it again, that kind of thing. And, you know, now when my brain is, is interacting with what I'm seeing, I'm going through these different emotional cycles. And then now I'm pausing it and going back and watching again.

I'm duplicating that thing. And so now my brain is being reinforced. And so if I have access to something, And I am frequently going back to it, that's the persistent part of that definition. There's something that's happening to the brain that's getting these pathways in the brain. These neural pathways are starting to form and now my brain is starting to get hooked. But what happens then is that the intensity of it, how do I say it?

It's like I build up a tolerance. You know, so, so let's put this in terms of, like, let's say alcohol. Let's say my first time drinking alcohol, I had 2 ounces or 3 ounces of beer. And maybe I did that during my teen years or my young adult years. And because my body has not really had alcohol before, I'm, I'm getting a little bit fuzzy in the brain after 3 ounces of beer. If I were to repeat this pattern, though, after a while, 3 ounces won't give me that buzz anymore.

I'm going to increase it to half a can of beer, which is 6 ounces, and then I might get that buzz. But then as this keeps on progressing, soon enough, one can, 12 ounces of beer, won't give me the same type of buzz anymore. So I'm gonna need to increase the quantity to 2 cans of beer, or I might add a shot of whiskey, or I might add this and that, you know. So my tolerance for this substance is increasing, which means I'm gonna need more of it.

So in a similar way, Let's say I am watching this one video or this one image, pornographic image, and my dopamine is spiking and my brain is like, oh my gosh, I'm kind of getting high off this image. But if I were to rewatch this image now 2 dozen times, maybe my brain will subconsciously say, okay, I'm not sure whether I'm getting that hit anymore. Let's watch another one. And so if I watch a different pornographic video, now my brain is like, whoa, this is new.

And then my brain spiking again. So you mentioned variety. So in, in, in substance use terms, it might be the quantity that makes someone start to get that buzz again. But for those with a sexual addiction, it might not be quantity of the same image, but rather it is the variety of images. That's why people are click, click, clicking and watching it for many minutes, maybe even hours on end, and their brain is constantly striving to get that dopamine hit.

And if they are, let's say they pause the computer or they step away and they don't have any access to it, if they were to return, if they were to go about their business, their brain might be thinking, ah, The tank is kind of running low. I want that huge dopamine hit again. And that's where the withdrawal comes. You really want to get that hit again. And so that's why a person will do it. And if they are desperate enough to get that dopamine hit, they will go ahead and do it despite consequences.

They will do it at work, on their work computer, even though it's monitored. They will do it even though their spouse has told them, if you do it one more time, you know, I'm gonna escalate the consequences. If you do it one more time, I'm gonna take the kids and I'm going to go to the hotel or to my parents' place. And they'll still do it despite the consequences because there's something within them that says, I need this dopamine hit.

Tara McCausland: And one of the challenging things, and you said this yourself, that you actually didn't see in yourself the addiction until you really started studying this stuff. And so I think it's probably often the betrayed partner that will first see the problem And then the person that's using or the addict then will recognize a problem when the betrayed points it out.

Roy Kim: I can respond to that in 2 different ways. One is that because again I viewed myself as a Christian and my lens viewed the world and viewed myself as that which is spiritual, that which is material, that kind of thing, and so I felt like me having this issue was primarily a sin issue. If I were to just pray more or just be more quote unquote right with God, then this would be a non-issue for me. And so that's why I never really saw it as an addiction, nor did I even really study much about addiction.

So I saw it really more as a sign of my poor spiritual health as the reason why I continued to go back to this. a habit, but also there was a part of me that felt like, you know what, I could probably stop this whenever. Yeah. You know, there was that denial part that was misinformed because I didn't believe I had an addiction, and nor did I really know what the terms of an addiction were, but I just felt like it was about me getting serious enough to willpower my way to stop it.

And, but I had to learn much later that addiction, yes, it does have a spiritual component to it, but it also has a significant brain component to it that I didn't know much about.

Tara McCausland: In a book that we published a couple of years ago, we call it the SAL Book, page 3 for anyone interested. It says that acknowledging sexual addiction helps us see the deeper physical, emotional, and spiritual aspects of our behavior. With this broader vision, we move away from relying on our own strength to overcome, just like you had mentioned, and instead learn to surrender our will to God. That would be another conversation in and of itself. But there's so much value in calling it what it is.

And I'm actually curious because there is a lot of talk in social and religious and professional circles as to how to label this, this unwanted sexual behavior or that this persistent behavior that's causing negative consequences.

Roy Kim: Right, right, right.

Tara McCausland: Is it an addiction? Is it a compulsion? Is it merely a bad habit? I'm just curious, in your experience as a therapist, Do you see a difference in outcomes for those who choose to label this as porn or sex addiction versus a compulsion or a habit?

Roy Kim: I would say that the majority of the folks that I work with not only get better when they can define or explain what they're going through as an addiction, but they also find a little bit of relief from their shame. Because when they have the same belief that I did, which was, oh, this must be an indicator of just me being a really either a bad person or someone of really poor faith, then that shame makes them want to do even less work for their recovery.

But when they get to a place where they realize, oh, there's actually a name for this and it is similar to other types of addiction, then they're more ready to say, well, then what are the steps? And when I give them clinical steps as well as spiritual steps, and relational steps. Yes, those steps can feel overwhelming, but at least they are tangible. Mm-hmm. And they can tackle it step by step. But when it's just a matter of, oh, there's just something wrong with me and I must be a, a bad person and I must be someone that God hates because I'm just so poor in faith.

there's really not much motivation to try because you are just bad. And why would anyone want to try when you think that if I'm once bad, always bad, you know? Mm-hmm. So there is that. But I will also say, Tara, that having a conversation with the partner of a sex addict is a different story. I find that Sometimes when we kick around the idea of their partner having an addiction, they get angry. They get angry like, that is such a cop-out.

Yeah. They will say, so you're saying then that they can't help it? You're saying that they are not accountable? And so that's where their Preconceived notions of what an addiction is and what the recovery looks like really get in the way of them being able to wrap their head around what's, what's going on here. They equate addiction with, I'm a robot, I've been programmed, and I can't help do what I do, right? Hmm. And I hope that that's not what the addict also believes, that they can't, you know, help it.

I do think that it can get a little bit fuzzy when it comes to trying to differentiate between addiction and compulsive behavior and bad habits because they're all kind of similar to each other. But I think if we really look at this clinically, of course we have the ability to take the right steps to move further and further away from addictive behavior, but those steps really need to be rigorous. If we just rely upon willpower, then there's a very, very high chance that people will continually relapse.

Yeah. And so that's pretty indicative of addictions across the board. But going back to my point about the partners of a sex addict, those conversations need to be drawn out, maybe repeated, asking them what might be their difficulty in accepting the definition, seeing if I can reframe it in a way that would make sense to them. But I definitely empathize with how they feel about it because if they've always thought that addiction really meant the person is copping out, then I'd be pretty upset too with that definition.

Tara McCausland: I really appreciate you bringing up that point. I've heard that before. And I think that there's something to be said about that, that the language we use around this can be tricky because addiction means something different from one person to another, right? Right. And the hope is, is that we can convey that If we label it correctly, then we're going to treat it differently. We're gonna treat a habit differently than an addiction. Right. And so the tools related to overcoming an addiction are going to look much different and be broader and more specific.

Yeah. In reality, if we can give people the right language, we help them see this is what I have available to me to help me overcome this issue. That's right. 'Cause even a partner who doesn't recognize that they are a betrayed partner dealing with PTSD-type symptoms because of a real addiction, you know, with— without a recognition of the addiction and then the accompanied betrayal trauma, neither party is going to do the hard, rigorous work and find the community of help that they need to recover and heal.

And so Again, I appreciate you bringing up— sometimes it might just feel like semantics, but it's also a real discussion that we have to have with people one-on-one sometimes so that we can help them frame it in a way that will give them the courage to do the work to get help and find healing. That's right. Yeah.

Roy Kim: And as you were, as you were speaking, another thought came to my mind in that, you know, There's a deep fear that comes upon a partner when they hear the addiction piece, because they're thinking, oh dear God, then this means that they're going to repeat this behavior. Mm. You know, it's the initial behavior that traumatized them in the first place. So they'd be asking me, so you're saying that I'm gonna be retraumatized by my partner's behavior?

And my heart sinks when they say that, because I know what that feels like. And so there needs to be a lot of gentle and thoughtful discussion with the betrayed partner about how do we, how do we help understand and interpret what an addiction is? Because for them, it's not only traumatic, but it's like, if you loved me, you would never do this behavior. Right? And it's not as simple as that, but of course for the partner it is as simple as that, right?

Yeah. So if you— so you're saying that if this person has an addiction, that they will repeat this behavior, and when they repeat this behavior, every single time they are throwing our love into the garbage. Like, of course the partner wouldn't want that, and so they're gonna fight against that with every fiber of their being. And it does take a lot of listening and trying to understand where they're coming from and seeing whether they'd be open to a different understanding of it so that maybe their new understanding of their addict partner loving them is their addict partner going through all the rigors to rid themselves of this addiction and seeing if there is a trajectory that they can see as being a sign of hope, you know, that this illness is being, you know, treated and getting better.

But sometimes that could be a really tall order.

Tara McCausland: Yeah. Well, and maybe to close up this discussion, and I think we'll address this in a Q&A because this is a big part of the whole process. Yes. Of even knowing what to call this. I think about how we go through a process of diagnosing diseases, right? Yes. If we were to go to the hospital and say we had cancer, but we were diagnosed with diabetes, the treatment would look very different. Very different. And so regardless of whether or not we want to accept this as an addiction or a compulsion, if we treat it like an addiction, then we will do the work necessary and come out into the light and find the, the tools and the support that we need to find healing.

I think that's what we all want. Yes. So Regardless of what, whether we wanna call it an addiction, if we treat it like an addiction, I believe that we will be on the right pathway to get the help we need to heal.

Roy Kim: I believe that too. Mm-hmm.

Tara McCausland: I mentioned or read in your bio that you primarily use group therapy to treat this issue. And at SA Lifeline, we very much value healing in community. We have our 12-step program, as we've discussed, And, and we understand that long-term recovery is very unlikely to be achieved in isolation. Again, that's what's different about calling it addiction, right? We find the help and the tools we need. Yes. That's what we're talking about. Can you tell us a little bit about group therapy and what are the unique benefits of that?

Roy Kim: The groups that I run are differently run than a 12-step group. These are smaller. I, I try to cap mine at 5 people. We don't methodically go through the 12 steps. There are elements of the 12 steps that we may be discussing at an, an any given meeting, but we do a lot of processing with one another. We give updates on what happened in their sobriety that week. We do a lot of, um, problem solving. strategizing. I provide some education to them about things that sometimes I have in mind, and sometimes it comes up because the group sort of talked about that theme that day.

But what I found is so different in the experience, a couple of things, and one is that I do less talking in a therapy group, and I allow— maybe I do more talking in the beginning stages where they don't know each other that well, But as time goes on, I start to do less talking and I allow them to do more talking. And there's a different effect when the group members hear words from a peer who is struggling and committed to their own recovery as, as they are, versus hearing from a professional that they are paying.

for this group. Sometimes there's something in their subconscious that feels like, well, you're the one that has all the answers and we're paying you to give us the good answers. And I don't know, it is, it's like, it's a, it's an interesting dynamic where I might say one thing as a paid clinician, and then the next week a peer says the exact same thing that I did. And they're like, oh, thank you so much for saying that.

And I don't take that personally at all. In fact, I celebrate that. I, I love the fact that they can speak to each other in a way that kind of mirrors what I've been educating them on. And that just means that they've internalized that and they are now implementing, implementing that in their life. And if they can get influence from their peer in that regard, then that is a huge, huge win. So that dynamic is different.

But also, I'd say that most addicts don't have either an individual friend or a group of friends, whether it's in the church or outside of the church, where they can speak openly about their addiction. So it can be because of shame, it can be because maybe fear of being exposed, Many reasons. But when they get into an environment where every person that they're looking at, whether it's in person or on Zoom, is going through what they're going through, there is this profound relief.

There's this profound solidarity that they feel. They feel seen. They allow their fellow member to feel seen and valued and not judged. And it's just, it's a unique experience. They don't get this anywhere else. Sometimes they feel that the amount of truth-telling and the amount of grace and the amount of accountability that they get from the group members is something that they wish that they could experience at church. But sadly, they say they don't feel that at church.

In fact, they feel the fear of shame and judgment at church. And, you know, it's one of the things that I pray for as far as the churches across the country being a safe haven for people with addictions. But for right now, you know, we can start with these groups and maybe they can sort of take what they've learned and, and, and courageously bring that into the culture of their church. So there is this great experience that they, that they have within these groups that might not yet be duplicable, you know, elsewhere.

But if, if I can provide that for them, and if you guys can provide that for them, then we're really doing them a, a service for their recovery. And I might also add that in large part, the folks that I work with who are in group are far more further along in their recovery than those who are just seeing me individually. It speaks to just all the stats out there, all the research that shows that not being in hiding, being honest with your true self, being accepted for your true self, having accountability, these things work for a person's long-term recovery.

Hmm.

Tara McCausland: Would it be safe to say that fear and secrecy, shame and isolation, those are the real monsters that keep people enchained?

Roy Kim: 1,000%. Yes. That's— and just, you know, the habit of using sexual behaviors as a way to regulate your emotions, that habit part is A real big thing. But the other thing is what you just said, it's like all that secrecy and the shame and the hiding, like those are hard to overcome by yourself.

Tara McCausland: Yeah. Well, and I love that there's quite a bit of overlap, it sounds like, in 12-step and group therapy. Obviously, you're a clinician. And so there would be unique benefits there to have someone professional in the group to lead the group. But they say in AA that the best person to help an alcoholic is another alcoholic. Yes. Yes. Yeah. And, and in group, as you say, whether it be in 12-step or group therapy, it dispels that fear and that secrecy and shame and isolation.

It just brings all this light into a space that previously has been so dark. And that is where the addiction grows and thrives, right? Yes. So I love that. We are huge advocates of healing in community and recognize the great value of qualified therapy, group therapy with a qualified therapist there, and also 12-step. So if you're in Southern Cal, you can look up Roy Kim, his group there, or you can look up SAL 12-step as well.

Yes. We do, as Brené Brown says, and I quote her all the time, the opposite of addiction is connection. And in a group setting where there can be that acceptance and accountability, there has to be accountability as well. That's right. That is where we will find a great deal of healing and some help pointing us to our— the God of our understanding. Yes. As is, I'm sure, the case in your group therapy and at SAL 12-step.

Yep. The group cannot be the higher power. Eventually, if we're going to truly heal, we need to find God in that equation. Yes. Yes. You spoke to the fact that you have this experience on both sides of the equation, having dealt with sexual addiction yourself and being a betrayed partner. But I want you specifically to talk about developing empathy for the betrayed, because I, I know that that's a really critical piece Of healing for the addicted person.

What can you tell us about that?

Roy Kim: Oh, so much. I'll just start by saying the addict has a lot of things to learn about the effect of their behaviors on their partner. Typically, the addict is primarily concerned with not getting in trouble, They're concerned with not getting caught. There's a sense of entitlement that a lot of addicts have. Like, for example, if my spouse angers me, then I'm entitled to either fight back, which is a funny way of looking at it because they're not even like saying anything to their spouse.

They are just retreating. from the conflict and maybe fighting back indirectly by looking at porn or masturbating or whatever it is that just gets them emotionally regulated again. And they feel entitled to that because, well, she angered me first, and so I needed to find a way to soothe myself from that. So they'll come up with many different ways of prolonging their behaviors. And in all of these things, they're rarely thinking about what is this doing to my partner.

And even, let's say, after discovery of their addiction, as they're going through their steps, as they're going through their recovery path, they're still thinking about The I, and they're not including what is my partner thinking about this process. If there is a scene on the TV, on Netflix, where there is a scene of adultery, a scene of someone watching porn, as the addict is thinking about the I, they're like, oh dear God, please don't say anything, please.

They're thinking inwardly, Spouse, I hope that you kind of overlook this and hope that you're not saying anything. But I encourage them saying, I want you to think about what they're thinking about. And even if you need to grab the remote and press pause and turn to their, to their spouse or their partner saying, are you okay? Knowing that they view your behaviors as betraying, As traumatic, as adulterous even. And it's like, you know, I just wanna check in with you.

Are you doing okay? Because this scene definitely is stirring up something within me. It makes me feel shameful of what I did, but I wanna put that aside and, and, and see how you are doing. So the, there's a, there's a metaphor that I often give of You know, whether it's like someone who gets behind the wheel after drinking 4 beers and a shot of whiskey, and they're driving erratically and they can't, they don't have quick reflexes.

And then they T-bone another car in the intersection. And they find out that the person who's driving the car is their wife. And this wife is all banged up. I mean, I'm talking about just broken bones and, and there's blood and not to get too gory, but just it's a horrible, horrible scene. And it's their behaviors, not intentional, but their behaviors that caused this damage, this horrible, horrible damage. And it's as if this person is out on the street and bleeding, and this person is saying to them either, oh, you'll be okay, you know, get up, you know, that kind of thing, or, or whether it's trying to pull them up too quickly, but they're not ready to be pulled up yet, or maybe, maybe the person is, is sent to the hospital to to mend their bones, this person who hit them in the car, they visit their spouse in the hospital and they're saying, well, shouldn't you be recovered by now?

You know, or this person said, hey, you know, I stopped drinking. Are you proud of me? Right. I mean, there's so many different ways that the person who got behind the wheel and hit their spouse needs to realize it's not just about you getting sober that solves this issue that you have done. You— there's, there's what your, what your spouse needs to recover from, both mentally and emotionally and bodily. It's how you show up in the hospital room.

It's when you're— when your spouse gets discharged from the hospital, how are you treating this person? Are you mindful of all the things that you have done to cause this wreckage in the first place? Are you being flippant in the way that you talk about alcohol, in the ways that you are getting behind the wheel of a car, the way that you even are talking about traffic accidents at all? Like, are you mindful of these things?

Right? All those things are what we're trying to train those who have a betrayed spouse to be mindful of as you are working on your own recovery. And so you can see there's a lot of steps involved. Yeah. And that's why I think group therapy can be helpful in conjunction with like 12 steps or individual therapy. But if you take it step by step, a person can do it. And, but, but they do need good guidance and they need to broaden their understanding of what recovery looks like for both themselves and their spouse.

Tara McCausland: The piece where you said, aren't you excited for me that I stopped drinking? Right? I've, I've been sober for 6 months, honey. Why don't you, why don't you trust me? Yes. Why do you still get triggered when we're at the pool or, you know, wounds To this degree, take time to heal. And, and there is a, there is a pathway of recovery for both parties. It's parallel, but both have to be walking this pathway to, number one, to heal.

And then in order for that marriage to heal, it's like its own entity, right? That's right. I mean, we couldn't put a timeframe on it. It's so individual for every person. But whatever you think, or whatever the addict thinks is sufficient time for the betrayed, To heal, maybe triple it. And don't ask why, why don't you trust me yet? And we, we can talk about the difference between forgiveness and trust and forgiveness, right? Looks different. And, and we need to allow for time for the betrayed to forgive in the first place, right?

Yes. And not put a timeline on that. That's right. But so many good points there. And recognizing sobriety is just the first step. It's step zero in the 12 steps. That's right. And recovery looks like healthy living, not merely stopping the behavior. Totally agree. So then at this point, what does the recovery road for someone suffering from an addiction look like?

Roy Kim: Well, I'm glad that you talked about the sobriety being like step zero. Yes, that is an important step zero. It is fundamental that they are now on a path of abstaining from the, the, the harmful behavior, both harming to themselves and to their family. That is something that they need to have new rituals for their life that allows that sobriety to be an ongoing thing until the day that they die. So whether that means they are with a sponsor for a long term, whether that they are just doing healthy patterns.

If they have problems with their technology, problems with the way that they interact with folks at work or anywhere else, just really getting to a groove, a rhythm, allowing that sobriety path to be rock solid. But you also mentioned, you know, about living and thriving And that is where the road to recovery really must involve having the, having the right people in your life to practice these things and get better. Most addicts have been in hiding for a lot of their adolescent and young adult lives, and they just kind of bring that into their adult lives.

They, they get good at telling half-truths. They get good at being in isolation. And so what they need to practice is ruthless truth-telling, having accountability partners in place, being able to speak truthfully to family members, and learning how to deal with conflict in a healthy way, learning how to deal with a person's disappointment, their differing opinions on things, learning how to negotiate, learning how to be more aware of your own emotions and when you're being triggered and how to self-soothe in a healthy way, learning new ways of enjoying life that doesn't involve harming other people or yourself.

So many, so many different ways to, to map out the road to recovery. But all of that would crumble if the, if the foundation is not set, which is giving yourself those really strong steps and pathways to make your sobriety as rock solid as, as possible. But that is not the whole thing. It's, it's also about being able to live life in a way that is in community, even for the ones who are introverted like myself.

It doesn't mean you need to be at parties all the time and big gatherings all the time, but it's at least having that one person or those 2 people that you can be in contact with where you can be honest and, and feeling as if you've got people in your corner. There are plenty of steps that, that a person can take But I think as long as they can realize that it's not just about the abstaining from the behaviors, then they'll be on a good path.

Tara McCausland: One of the things that we are going to be talking about throughout this podcast is what we call the SA Lifeline Recovery Puzzle, which I know we introduced to you, Roy, but at the center of that puzzle is our willing heart. And we recognize that rock bottoms look different for everyone. My dad's rock bottom was getting arrested for picking up a prostitute. That's a pretty low rock bottom. For others, it's not quite so low. But at one point, the betrayed partner, she recognizes there's nothing I can do to change this.

Yes. The addict must choose a different way. And that starts with a willing heart. As I said, we will be discussing this this recovery puzzle at length, but I appreciate what you said about this ruthless honesty, or Anna Lembke calls it radical honesty.

Roy Kim: Radical honesty, yeah.

Tara McCausland: It's so critical to come clean and to get rid of all the secrets because again, the secrets are incredibly problematic. And I've heard from many betrayed partners that it wasn't the actual behavior that was most painful, it was the lying. and the deceased, which is hard sometimes to understand. But I, I've heard it enough to believe that that is true. Yes. And so if we start with a willing heart and a willingness to be honest, humble, that's a good foundation to start on.

And hopefully, we will then start to reach out for the support that we need, finding that qualified therapist, finding a group of people that we can connect with, whether it be group therapy, 12-step, A lot to be said about the road to recovery, but I think it's probably safe to say that it's not easy, but it's worth it. The work is hard.

Roy Kim: So worth it. Yes.

Tara McCausland: But life, a beautiful life, can open up to us after we've done the work to get ourselves right with ourselves, with our spouse, with God. Never too late. There's always an opportunity to change. We have been talking about the road to recovery and, and we do recognize that there's this key component of connecting with the God of our understanding. Yeah. To really find healing. And a great way to do that is through prayer. Mm-hmm. And you had mentioned some really key prayer topics that can be helpful in healing.

Yeah. Can you speak to that?

Roy Kim: Sure. For most addicts, including myself, especially as we are kind of going through our own faith journey, we feel so much shame and we feel so much desperation about our addiction. And I think the, the prayer topic that I'd like for addicts to graduate from and to evolve away from is the prayer of, God, would you take this addiction away from me? Would you take this away? Almost as if like it's a magic pill. Hmm. It's a rubbing of the lamp.

I know that for some people's faith backgrounds, maybe miraculous and instantaneous answers to prayer are maybe a sign of how faithful and prayerful that person is. And so that might be incentive for them to pray in that way, like, oh, God instantly took away this addiction of mine. And I don't argue that God can do that. But I don't think he normally does that. In fact, I would say the huge percentage of times he does not do that.

I think that a more effective prayer would be asking God to join you in the journey of the road to recovery, because it is a long, strenuous, humbling, sometimes fearful, maybe often fearful journey. And so if we were to ask God to accompany us, to give us courage, maybe even supernatural courage to face our own fears, to have hard conversations with our spouse, maybe hard conversations with our fellow members at church, to give us the courage to make necessary sacrifices such as, you know, am I so addicted to my technology that I need to actually do away with my technology for a while?

Do I need to restructure my day? Do I need to reprioritize things? Like, these are all very difficult decisions to make. But I think as we invite God to accompany us, to strengthen us, to humble us, to love us in the process, I think those are things that God answers again and again, if we are open to that. And for some people, they might need to even get over that initial obstacle of, does God even love me?

You know, because I have betrayed my family, I am just dirty, I am perverted, all those labels that they would attach to yourself. And I think that's where, you know, a prayer, maybe the most essential prayer is, you know, God, would you reveal yourself as someone who loves me as I am, and who will love me as I evolve, who will grow, and that you'll go with me as I grow. And sometimes a person might need to speak with their clergy members, their elders, and, you know, others, other faith leaders to, to clarify, you know, what is God's love for me?

What is his view of me? how can I hold on to that so that I can more accurately pray? I'm praying to the God who has been revealed to me rather than the God who is that very harsh, judgmental God figure of the cosmos that I've been kind of avoiding my whole life, that sort of thing. And so I think to be able to pray in that way could be very, very helpful. And for the addict to really pray for their loved ones as well, that God would give them a portion of endurance and of grace, that one day hopefully that they would be able to forgive you, but you feel like you are not entitled to their forgiveness.

Just really having a humble posture in the light of your own family members. And I think for the partner too, for them to pray that Of course, God, you know, they would want God to take away the addiction, but, you know, to clarify for them that the addiction will take a long road and that God would give them grace and the right community to grow and to endure and to feel cared for as they go through maybe their own 12 steps, because it's going to be a grueling road for both of them.

Tara McCausland: So glad that you talked about that, Roy. The conversations that we have with God hopefully will change as we recognize that the magic pill, while it is possible, the miracle in that regard is possible, but I have come to believe that God is far more interested in our growth than our comfort. Yes. And the growth that takes place on this very rigorous journey Is real.

Roy Kim: It's so real.

Tara McCausland: And on the other side of it is, is true beauty and joy and freedom that we— that many who are listening to this podcast cannot yet comprehend because they're just in the muck. Of course. In the trenches. And of course, but I hope— I mean, I know that I can attest to the fact that the journey is worth walking. And, and the climb is worth every step. So thank you for speaking to that. I believe that God will be on this journey with us as we humbly ask for His assistance.

He won't leave us alone on this because He cares. He cares about our growth. Yes. I've loved this conversation so much, Roy, and I'm grateful for the great work that you are doing to help those who suffer and struggle. But before I let you go, our final question is, what would you tell The newcomer who's just starting this journey, and on the flip side, the old-timer who's been walking this road for a while?

Roy Kim: For the newcomer, especially those who are of faith, God not only loves you, but God likes you, and you are right where you need to be. You are at a stage that is crucial for the rest of your life. Stage by stage, you are where you need to be, especially if you have a A willing heart to go through this. You cannot become a veteran recovering addict until you have gone through the steps. And so you are a rookie and you need to do rookie things.

And there are plenty of people who have walked this journey before you. They have blazed a trail for you. And so trust in the process and submit yourself. To the will of God and to submit yourself to the process of, of what people have studied and have gone through. And take heart, going through this too quickly— your character will develop, as we've been talking about, over a long period of time. And so you do need to go through these beginning stages.

And for the person who is a veteran, I would say it is easy to rest on our laurels and to feel like we've kind of graduated from the process. I know that I can fall into that trap often. And so I would say there's plenty of things to learn about ourselves, even if we've gone through the steps and we've been sober for a while. There's many things to learn about ourselves. I think there are many ways for us to pay it forward to those who are new to this recovery path, whether that means you'd like to be a sponsor, whether that means you'd like to be involved in, you know, whether it's things at your church, taking someone out for a meal and just being able to talk about your own story.

I would say that just because we have had a long period of sobriety does not mean that We are bulletproof. Temptation can always be knocking at the door. Maintain an engine check. Check around, see whether we've got, you know, all the fluids are topped off, you know, there's no loose nuts and bolts anywhere. Just making sure that our, our structures are sound so that we stay sober. Never underestimate the power of an addiction. But I'm really proud of all the people who are far along in their recovery journey.

That's not an easy thing to do. And, but there is a lot of things that you can do that can empower the community around you. I hope that you can be open to that.

Tara McCausland: Well, thank you again, Roy. Appreciate you, your fine work that you're doing in this field. And we thank you for your time today.

Roy Kim: Oh, I love what SA Lifeline is doing. I love how you are contributing to this entire Huge ministry to both addict and family alike. I just hope that the Lord will bless all that you do moving forward. Thank you.

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