Hitting My Rock Bottom and Developing a Willing Heart w/ Marcus H.

Marcus H.: My rock bottom was extremely powerful. I thought I was only hurting myself. I, you know, it was secret. I was protecting, nobody knew. And I was okay doing that. When I finally realized that something's gotta be different, something has to change. And it, it got me to a point where I realized the impact of what was taking place.

Narrator: This is Pathway to Recovery, an SA Lifeline Foundation podcast featuring hosts Tara McCausland, who is the SA Lifeline Executive Director, and Justin B., a sex addict living in long-term recovery. We have conversations with experts and individuals who understand the pathway to healing from sexual addiction and betrayal trauma because we believe that recovering individuals leads to the healing of families.

Jonathan L.: Welcome to Pathway to Recovery Podcast. I am one of the co-hosts, Jonathan L., and I am so grateful to be here. I am also an addict living in recovery, and I'm thankful for the opportunity I have today to be conversing with our special guest, Marcus H. We're going to focus today on a willing heart. So we've been doing the, the puzzle, the recovery puzzle, and we've been doing portions of that recovery puzzle. Today's topic is that willing heart.

We're going to focus on overcoming pride, shame, and hiding, which are a massive part of that. But before we get into that, I actually want to turn it over to Marcus, our guest. And Marcus, will you tell us a bit about where you come from, your background, and why you're on the podcast?

Marcus H.: Yeah, no, thanks, Jonathan. I'm Mark Sage. I'm a recovering sexual addict. I've had quite a journey. I, I guess looking back over the years, I've been dealing with this in my, in my life for decades. Never really knew what it was or as bad as it was until I kind of had some events take place in my life. But I started early on when I was a kid trying to seek acceptance, and I think I was seeking validation from the wrong sources through most of my life.

And I found ways that were effective to deal with the stresses in my life at a very young age. I think I first found self-pleasure when I was like 12 years old, and that kind of put me in a mindset of there's a way to escape the stresses and trials that I felt. I, we moved a lot when I was a kid. I moved 17 times. So we were constantly in a state of change. And I think that, uh, although it was highly unhealthy and destructive, it was very effective in my life and it got me through some difficult times.

I found a lot of times in my life, I call them magic portals. Looking back what I thought they were, every time I was very active in my church and every time there would be a milestone in my church, it was like, oh, now I'll be fixed. Now I'll, won't struggle with this anymore. Because I knew it was wrong. Deep down, I knew the behavior was wrong. I knew that sexual acting out was something that God didn't want me to do.

And I felt a lot of shame. And I felt like I couldn't really accept myself. And I think that really impacted my, my view of my internal value and my worth. And I'd go through these, these portals, so to speak, of timing. It's like, okay, I'm gonna get I'm gonna get married. The ultimate magic portal. I get married, all my problems are over. This is gonna be, I won't have to feel guilty about this at all.

All my desires will be, you know, met in a God-approved way in marriage. And that didn't work. And then it was like, okay, every time I have a child, ooh, this is it. Um, I get a certain calling to serve in my church. Oh, this is it. I get a new phone, whatever it is. I thought this would fix my problems. And all along I would try to Find ways to overcome. I would just, it's a matter of will.

It's a matter of just muscling through. I was taught when I was young, like, be a man, man up, chin down, head down, just take it on and, and don't give up. And every time I would have an issue or a problem, I would just feel this immense shame and guilt. And I would go and I, I would do what I thought was the right thing. I would talk to my ecclesiastical leaders and they would Tell me the same thing.

Pray harder. Read your scriptures more. Be more obedient. God will take it from you as you ask God to take it from you. And I did all those things and it never worked. And it got to the point where I felt like I was broken, that this may work for other people. This power that God has to remove these things from his children just doesn't work for me. I'm not worthy enough. I'm not valuable enough because it was the same thing.

Just try harder. And it, I mean, this went into my adult life all through growing up and into my adult life. It was the same thing. Do the same thing. So every time I would have this problem, I would go and I would get the same counsel. And I just felt like, okay, something's not right. 'Cause I became an expert at stopping. I could stop the behavior. I was an expert at stopping, but what I couldn't do is not start again.

And that was the problem. And I would have periodic white-knuckle sobriety at the time. I thought, oh, I'm doing great, but it was white-knuckle sobriety. So it was just this ongoing battle within me of, I know I shouldn't be doing this. I feel bad about this, but I'm going to put on this show so everyone sees that I'm not doing this and they don't know the real me. So I was closed off to everybody. This caused serious connection issues in my life because I couldn't sit with myself.

I wasn't connected to myself because deep down I was ashamed of myself. So I think ultimately what got me to the point where recovery was even an option, I didn't even know the principles of recovery. First off, I didn't think, oh, I'm not that bad. I don't need to go see somebody. This is just a willpower. I just need to have more faith, do more good things to counterbalance all the bad things I thought I was.

You know, that I was doing in my life. So ultimately what got me in the rooms of recovery was fear of losing everything, fear of, of, you know, losing my marriage, fear of losing my family, fear of losing this perception that I had spent decades building, this facade that I'd spent decades building for others because I was so invested in external sources for my internal worth and value. And, um, so hitting rock bottom for me and going through that process was life-changing because it got me on the path of recovery.

And while fear is a horrible sustainer, it's a great starter. It got my engine going. So as a fuel, it's terrible. And it wasn't until that fear transitioned into faith that got me on the sustainable path of recovery. But, um, yeah, it was mainly fear that got me into the rooms of recovery. And that was about 4 years ago. So that's how I got here. But yeah, my rock bottom was a period of time in my life that looking back was very difficult and very hard, but I am immensely grateful for that, that period of time in my life because I would not be where I am.

I'd be still banging my head against the wall, doing the same thing, living in insanity, trying to follow the counsel that I kept getting because I was ignorant to the real tools and resources that would make a difference.

Jonathan L.: And what I love about this whole framing of your story that you've given is that there's a lot of retrospective analysis you've done. There's a lot of introspection you've done in yourself that gives a lot of context now that quite frankly, that what you've described, that rock bottom period for you, there are people listening right now where that's where they're stuck. They don't know how to get out. They don't know how to uncover the shame, the hiding.

That aspect is so terrifying and difficult to overcome. And so What I'm excited about is that we're going to have a conversation about how do we get from that space of hiding, locking it away to where you are now. I mean, 4 years in the recovery rooms is a big feat. I mean, that's something that showing up consistently doing that is not easy. And being an expert on starting, you probably have tried 100 or 1,000 different ways of starting, and you might be able to even help us find a few that might help some guys move forward.

So we'll dig in that now. I, uh, And so you've, you've done this addiction cycle, the active addiction. I wanted to talk about this as we're looking back on that addictive cycle. How did trying to protect your secret life cut you off from the people who mattered most? Because you talked about that strain on your relationships. And how did you finally realize that you could not get the help you needed while hiding your behaviors? Because you did say there was this willpower aspect and then it was straining and you felt like if I just willpower through, I can get this, but that didn't work.

So tell me a bit about that.

Marcus H.: Yeah, well, first off, I, it wasn't until a few years ago where I realized willpower is a complete myth. It is not about willpower. It has nothing to do with the willpower aspect. Now there's internal determination and grit that can play a role, but just willpower for the sake of white knuckling doesn't work. It's a matter of when, not if there will be a relapse. So I think for me, I got really good at compartmentalizing. I got really good at pushing things down and creating a false reality where I wasn't behaving that way, where I wasn't making those choices because I allowed those bad choices in the sexual acting out, viewing pornography, masturbation, those, those, those methods of acting out as methods of decreasing my internal worth.

Like somehow my, the love that God had for me and the worth that I held as a divine son of a loving God. was negatively impacted by those choices. And what I've come to believe is, and know, is that while those choices and behavior may impact my relationship with God and my closeness to him and his trust and confidence in me, it has zero impact on his love for me. And that's been huge, you know, epiphany to gain.

But in the compartmentalizing and that separation, what I did is I would I was so disgusted with myself when I would look in the mirror that I would feel like I had to overcompensate, meaning I, I'm very active in my church and I felt like I had to build my spiritual resume to somehow counterbalance this internal conflict that I had. And for me, one of the biggest moments in my journey of, am I good? Is God with me?

Has he finally taken this from me? I was called to serve as a substantial leader in, uh, in my church. And I thought, how in the world— I must be quote unquote cured. How in the world would God choose someone who struggled with this to serve in this capacity where I was, you know, over stewardship over 400 people in a community and trying to counsel them on similar struggles? I must be good. You talk about an ultimate sign from God.

And for a while it was for, you know, first couple years of my 5-year service, it wasn't an issue. But then when it came back, when that white-knuckle willpower myth ran out, I was faced with a decision to come forward or bury it down to the deepest dungeons of my soul. And unfortunately, I buried it into the deepest dungeons of my soul. And I split myself almost like, you know, the, like a Horcrux, almost like a Harry Potter reference where I'm splitting my soul and burying it because how could I possibly do what I was called to do and help these people and yet still do that?

So I created in my mind this false reality and that disconnection. My wife knew, we didn't talk about it. We'd had a few D-days in our marriage throughout that I'd struggled with this, but she was of the same mindset. How could he possibly be serving in this capacity and still be struggling? But she knew there was a disconnect. We weren't able to have this true unity that we both wanted. I knew why. I knew why, because my soul was split.

So I got very good at this, this compartmentalizing and then trying to outwardly external, you know, visualization, visibility, so to speak, this pride of compensating for it. I've realized I had the order mixed up in my mind too, because I was always focused on relationships with others. And I totally discounted the importance of the relationship of myself to God, my higher power, and myself to myself. I never really thought about that. And what recovery has taught me is that not in a selfish way, but in the most loving and healthy way possible, if I prioritize my relationship with my higher power, my Heavenly Father first, and second to that, my relationship with myself.

Above everything else in my life. As I do that, all other relationships in my life are buoyed up, but I was trying to fix the relationship and compartmentalize and protect. And I didn't want to tell my wife because I would spare her some white knight screwed up way of thinking. I was a white knight by protecting her, by not telling her the choices that I was making or not telling her I had a relapse or whatever it may be.

I was protecting her. So it impacted my relationship with my wife. It created an environment in my home where I was irritable, where I was honoring, where I was controlling because I was afraid and fear led to control. I was very strict with my kids because I was so disappointed in myself. So it impacted every relationship in my life, this dual life that I was living. And recovery taught me that my priorities and my, and everything was just out of whack and out of order.

And as I've been able to surrender that and let that go and focus on my relationship with God, every relationship in my life has improved, including the one with myself. Yeah.

Jonathan L.: Wow. You, and there's something here you hit on, and I can't help but talk about this a little bit more, the duality of self, the splitting of yourself and how harmful that was to you sabotaging self. I think too many people who are suffering with addiction don't realize how much they're hurting themselves. And are so focused on what it would happen to everyone else if, if others knew, right? Like, so important.

Marcus H.: Jonathan, I, I originally, like I said, I got into recovery from fear. I wanted to fix things. I wanted to fix relationships. I wanted to fix all the harm, everyone I'd lied to, the deception, the dual life, fix it for them, fix it for them, fix it for them. I lied to a lot of people in my acting out behavior throughout my life. I deceived a lot of people. I hurt a lot of people that I loved deeply, but what I didn't realize is the person I hurt the most was myself.

The person I lied to the most was myself. The person I deceived the most was myself. Even when I was going through step work and it came to, you know, making the list and making amends, step 8, step 9, I didn't even have myself on the list. And then I realized my name should be number 1. On the list, because that's where the harm— and that's where my why shifted. My why initially was fear-based. Why recovery? To fix my marriage, to save my marriage.

When that shifted early on to my why being because I want to be a better man, I want to become the man God sees when he looks at me, regardless of everything else in my life could totally fall apart and disappear. I want to live Recovery. I want to be a better man. So I even changed my vernacular early on was I need to do this. I need to do my step 1. I need to do this.

I need to surrender. I need to, whatever it is, I need to go to meetings. And I replaced that word need with want because I want to, I want to do my 4th step. I want to go to the meeting. I want to surrender. I want to get better at holding space for my wife and those that I love. I want to accept and have grace for myself. So need. It's not about need because it's my choice.

I control what I do and don't do. And as I want to do those things and want to live in recovery, my why is different. And I can focus on what I can control, which is being a better man for my sake, not selfishly, but a prioritized way. I cannot provide something for somebody else that I don't have. I cannot have empathy, love, respect, acceptance for anybody I love in my life if I cannot do that for myself.

I cannot extend grace to anyone if I cannot extend grace to myself. So those are a lot of things that I've learned in that process of just my why and the want and how it keeps me on the path to recovery.

Jonathan L.: Incredible. That focus, that shifting the focus on if I can stop the behavior to if I can find healing for my heart and find healing for myself is so critical here. I think that one of the main symptoms, and I experienced this and maybe You did too. We'll talk about it. The book calls it the insanity cycle. And then there's the true recovery and insanity cycle. You have this repetition that happens. And so hopefully, as we talk about this, other people go, oh, I relate to this.

But it's, uh, you have the cycle of I act out and then I feel deep guilt or shame about that acting out. And so then confessing is enough to get that off my shoulders for now. But then maybe you confess if you do, right? You might not. Then you go back to lust and you use that as the recovery, quote unquote, piece or the medicine that you're looking for. The addiction, right, is fueled again because you're trying to get that fix.

That lust hit again will numb out the feelings that hurt so bad, right? And so my question kind of to you on this is, how do we break that cycle? And how did it look for you when you finally left that cycle?

Marcus H.: I think it's a valid question because my acting out behavior It was effective. It was horribly damaging and unhealthy and not what God wanted for me in my life, nor what I wanted, but it worked. It got me through some very difficult times in my life. But for me, that was a toolbox that I had honed and built and stocked over my whole life. And it was, it was clean and rust-free and I'd open it all the time and I'd use it.

But what recovery taught me is that there's a whole nother entire toolbox over here. And they're way more effective. You know, I need to stop trying to use that flathead screwdriver to hammer a nail in and pick up the hammer of recovery. And so what's happened, people ask me, when did you find sobriety? When did you find sobriety? I'm just trying to find sobriety. And I'm like, you know what? I never found sobriety. As I worked the program of recovery from a true desire, from a true why, and I, I worked the steps and I changed my why and my desire.

Sobriety found me as a positive outcome of that process. So I was able to learn how to go to a different toolbox. My toolbox of acting out is still sitting there. You know, my sobriety date is September 21st, '22. So I'm coming up on 4 years of sobriety. That toolbox is still there. That acting out toolbox that I used my whole life, it's got a little dust on it. It's a little rusty. It hasn't been opened in a while, but it's still there.

I'm one bad decision away from going back to the same behavior. But what I have over here is a box, a toolbox and a tool belt that I'm adding to almost daily with recovery resources, resources and tools that I never knew existed. But, you know, it's that concept of getting out of that cycle, realizing the same old, same old doesn't work anymore. Those same, the same pray harder, do more esteemable things. Have you asked God to take it from you?

I don't know how many times I had an ecclesiastical leader tell me that. Have you asked God to take it from you? He can take it from you if your faith is sufficient. I've asked a million times. That didn't work. So getting out of that cycle was me seeing, oh, there's actually other things I can do, other tools I can pick up. Surrender, this humility and accountability and just consistency and effort from a willing heart. Those things, I saw results.

And for me, it was rubbing shoulders with men who'd been where I was. Where I am now and where I want to be. But rooms of recovery and that connection, I never learned how to connect with another man, especially vulnerability, meekness. Those went totally against my view of what a man was and strength. Therapy was for crazy people. That was literally my mindset. I've had unbelievable therapy experiences over the past 4 years. I could not be where I am.

Without the tools of recovery and the connection, the therapy that I've been able to receive, and just the focused connection on God, those, those things together has made all the difference. So I think breaking that cycle came down to seeing that it can be done. I'm not alone. I'm not unique. I'm not broken. I can learn and gain strength, hope, and experience from others and open my heart to connection. My definition of what makes a man has changed entirely.

What I view as strength has totally changed. When I have connection, a genuine connection with other sons of God trying to be better men, that's where the magic happens.

Jonathan L.: Yeah. Wow. That's, I mean, there's so much to unpack there. I loved all of it, but I, I'm looking now at this, this toolbox metaphor you used. You have the old tools, the way that you got through so many things, and it was effective, you said, but it was the wrong tools for this job. Like you can only duct tape the ceiling so many times before the flood comes through the roof. It needs the right job done, right?

I'm looking at this and I'm thinking, is there, there's like a third toolbox here and it's also not adequate. It's this idea of white-knuckle sobriety that you had mentioned. Can you dive into that and help me understand? Because there's so many people and I was one of these and I've only recently learned this, but I want to hear your view on this. What is white-knuckle sobriety and why is it never going to work for very long?

Marcus H.: Yeah, I think because the focus is wrong. The focus is on me. The focus is me. White knuckle sobriety means I put myself in the center, that I'm strong enough, that I'm, I just need a little help from God, just a little help from God, you know, maybe just a little boost here and there, but I've got this. I could be a man. I can do this. I have, if I don't feel strong enough, I gotta get in the weight room and I gotta pump my spiritual muscles.

Right. But it's focused on me. White knuckle sobriety is all about me in the center. That's how I view it. And that will fail. It's, I, I have this metaphor. I love metaphors and analogies. The toolbox is one thing, but I envision this, this boat, right? This boat that I'm gonna put my safety in and it's at a dock and it's at the harbor and I'm gonna, I'm gonna hop in it and sail across the sea right now.

The boat that my higher power is the captain of. That thing is a steel tank. It is just, uh, you know, it is behemoth. It's gonna make it because it is all powerful and cannot be sunk. It's a literal Titanic, right? I, when I look over here in the corner, I see the SS Willpower, right? And it is literally this open little rotted out rusty thing that's already got a foot of water in the bottom of it.

Yeah. Right? I step on that thing, it is only a matter of time before I'm at the bottom of the ocean. Toast kaput. So that visual representation helps me understand, where am I going to put my foot? Am I hopping in this essence willpower? Because I think that's where it is. And I'm just going to bail it out fast enough because my strength is sufficient. I'm strong enough. I've worked out for this. I'm going to make it.

Just, I'm going to row hard enough. I'm going to bail it out. No. When I put my whole life and my heart and everything in the hands of my higher power, I know how that's going to end up. I know who wins in the end. He is all-powerful. And it comes down to, do I trust him? Do I trust him? And that's where I think this, this myth of willpower, it's very easy to— I was fully a believer, wrap my head around this fact that I just need to be stronger.

Because that's why I was told. I was told that from my dad. I was told that from my church leaders. Everybody, just be stronger. Just stop. And I was like, so it was a matter of me realizing, hmm, And then these guys that I started rubbing shoulders with, you've been sober how long? You, this isn't an issue for you. You're working what's worked for you. And to hear them express the principles of surrender and humility and accountability and rigorous honesty and, and, you know, so all the steps, right?

So that's what made the difference for me to break that myth in my head that willpower was gonna do it. Um, I had batches where it was effective, but it was only a matter of time before that ship sank. Yeah. Wow.

Jonathan L.: There's a moment I feel like I'm going to keep moving on your metaphor here where that, that SS willpower needs to be relabeled as the SS addict. And it is so hard to accept that title of I am an addict. Yeah. Um, what was there a moment in your recovery and, and you talked about this, but like kind of diving in a little deeper, what finally led you to be like, this is it. Like, I, I am an addict and I'm going to go about this using the recovery toolbox instead of the SS Willpower mislabeled boat, right?

Speaker 4: Before we continue, I wanted to announce that registration for our 2026 SA Lifeline virtual conference happening November 13th and 14th is now live. We will hear from 7 expert presenters sharing practical insights on recovery from sexual addiction, betrayal trauma, and healing marriages and families. Why come? Well, I know that we do better when we know better, and connection is the opposite of addiction. So through education, connection, and intention, we can build meaningful momentum in recovery. Come ask your hard questions during live Q&As with our expert presenters and hear strength, hope, and experience from those working their own recovery in live discussions.

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Marcus H.: Yeah. So, I mean, I think for me, my rock bottom was extremely powerful and it got me to a point where I realized the impact of what was taking place. I thought, I think maybe a common addict's brain mindset, that I was only hurting myself. I, you know, it was secret. I was protecting, nobody knew. And I was okay doing that for me. My, uh, when I finally realized that something's gotta be different, something has to change.

I had attended a, uh, a church meeting where me and my 2 sons went to this meeting and, and, um, I had been released from my calling for the past, you know, 5 and a half years. And I was, I was just, uh, I buried everything and I'm taking this to my grave. I'm not telling anybody that I did this. And I went to this church meeting and, and the speakers talked about Not procrastinating your day of repentance and clearing out everything that, that gets in your way with God.

And, and it was just, I had this epiphany in that moment of what am I doing? It was like this moment of clarity. I wanna be rid of this. I don't wanna carry this anymore. So I, I went home and I got on my knees and I prayed and I said, God, help me find the opportunity to come forward. Help me break the chains of this. Open that box I'd concealed in my heart deep down in the lowest caverns.

And my wife and I had planned, it was her birthday and we had planned for months this big surprise trip and we were going to go to New York. At the time she was a big Jets fan and she wanted to see Phantom. So I booked this trip for her birthday and it was a big surprise and we're like, okay, we're going. I'm like, well, I'm obviously not telling her before we go on this trip. I mean, this is huge, right?

So we get to New York, we're there like a day or two and out of the blue, The morning of her birthday, she's getting ready. We're getting ready to go to the football game. It's her birthday. And she says, how did you ever handle that? All that church service you had to do and how you been doing with that? You know, acting out, you, you still, how's that been? How did you do that? And I was instantly, I went to like, oh no, I'm just gonna do what I always do.

I'm gonna change the subject. I'm gonna lie. I'm gonna do whatever I do to get out of it. And that split second I had that impulse, it was like a hammer in my head from God saying, you done done. This is the opportunity you prayed for. And I'm like, are you serious? So I said, well, it's actually been really hard and I haven't been really honest with you. And I told her what had happened over the past several years.

And it was the biggest D-Day bomb ever on her birthday. And we still had like 2 days of this trip. So it got to this, it was just this huge bomb went off in our relationship there because everything she thought she knew was gone and the betrayal came out. And when we got home, my first thing I did, I went to my ecclesiastical leaders and I, I just wiped the slate totally clean. And I was like, well, okay, I'm good now.

And I was following their counsel to do more good and do more this and that. And she's like, no, this isn't right. This isn't right. Something's not right. And so she was sleeping downstairs and, and I was just trying to do more good and, and build my spiritual muscles, you know, by doing all the counsel they gave me. And one morning, you know, I was getting ready to, to go and, and do some church service with my kids and And she's like, I can't take this anymore.

This is just not right. This isn't right. And she got hysterical and all the emotions came out and it was extremely scary. And I had 2 younger kids in the house at the time and they were preteens and, and she stormed out of the house in her just utter emotional trigger. And my 17-year-old son at the time said, where's mom going?

Speaker 4: I said, I don't know.

Marcus H.: And I was just totally, I was, I'd lost it. And he tracked her on her phone. through the, you know, the Apple phone, find me. And he got in his car and followed her. And she had decided at that time that the only way out for her was to end her life. And she had planned how she was gonna do it. And she drove up canyon on the bank of a raging river, and she was gonna jump in this river.

And my 17-year-old son found her as she was on the edge of the river and, uh, talked her off that edge. And And changed her mindset in that moment and prevented her from going through with that. Jonathan, that changed my life and realized that I am impacting those I love in the most horrific way possible. And that scared me. It scared the you-know-what out of me. And I said at that moment, whatever I need to do, I'm going to do.

But in that moment, it was fear and it was fix this. So I found the rooms of recovery. I found, um, an SAL meeting. I went into it and I was like, I'm not like these guys. I'm not that bad. But the second I was able to say, I'm a sexual addict, I'm an addict, it changed my life and it got me on the path of recovery. Although fear was not the most healthy, sustainable way, it got me into rooms.

And it was only a month or two later where I realized, no, I am that bad. I do need the help. These men are amazingly loving and kind and noble and strong. Not at all what I thought. And we're all in the same boat. And the hope, strength, and experience I'd gained from those interactions early on changed my whole life. So this whole concept of accepting the reality, it took my wife almost ending her life. For me to realize the severity, to wake up and realize this is not enough.

What I've been told to do and what I've been doing does not work. Coming to just the deep core, who am I? I'm a son of God with divine potential. My worth is 100, but I'm also an addict. I'm not broken, but that's the reality of who I am. And finding the tools that have helped me accept that and move forward. and strip myself of all preconceived notions and perception of others and all of that. I still struggle with all those things, but now I have a path that I can walk and I know it's effective.

And God is the captain of the boat I'm on right now. And that's what gives me that strength and security moving forward.

Jonathan L.: That's just an incredible story and in every way incredible. I am certain that there are so many people who will hear this And they will be pushed towards the movement of, I need to make changes. I need to do something. I want to. Yes.

Marcus H.: I want to.

Jonathan L.: And this goes into what I'm hoping we can pull apart here, because you're talking about your rock bottom here, right? The, the SAO book says this phrase that I, for a long time, could not understand, 'cause I myself did not pick my rock bottom either. Right. And it was a dark place. And, but the book says that you can pick your own rock bottom. You can choose when the pain of that situation surpasses the pain of the solution, right?

And for a lot of us who are kind of earlier adopters of this program, people who have been through this, you didn't pick it, right? But the message now is you can pick it, right? It takes that external shock or discovery or breaking down the walls, right? But you just explained how you hit your own rock bottom and probably not— I mean, you did have some choice that spiritual prompting came to you and said, do it now.

And you did it. Right? Which was hard. But what would you say to the addicts who are still hiding and trying to avoid hitting their rock bottom now?

Marcus H.: Hiding doesn't work. We're not protecting anybody. I know I thought that hiding and sparing others pain was the noble thing to do. You're right. I wasn't able to choose my rock bottom, but I am eternally grateful for it because It allowed me to experience things in a different way. That rock bottom gave me a stark contrast that I compare so many things to in my life now. You know, this whole concept of there's no ability to understand joy without knowing what pain is.

And that's what has helped me. I pray that others can find their own rock bottom and not have to go through that, but For me, that's what it took. That's what it took to shock my system. You know, um, separation, being separated from my family for 4 months, those things, that time period, looking back, was where I was moldable, where I was able to strip myself of the pride. And while it was fear-based initially, the transition into faith and realizing that for me, my why changed.

We were separated for about 3 months. I was living in my in-laws' basement through the holidays, right? I'm the biggest Christmas nut in the world. And to be away from my family on Thanksgiving, on Christmas, I mean, it was very hard, right? But what I, what came for me in the shift in this, my why, my wife went to Hawaii for like 3 weeks to contemplate our future. She wanted to get away. She wanted to decide what she wanted.

And while she was there, we had a FaceTime call where we outlined exactly what divorce would look like. Okay, here's this option that we have. What are we going to do with our business? What are we going to do with our home? Where are our kids going to live? What are we going to do with it? It was an extremely difficult conversation, but it hit me like a ton of bricks. And it helped me realize that everything in my life could go away.

What am I left with? I'm left with me and God, right? And so it shifted my focus. I'm not fixing anything. If I'm able to rebuild something, awesome. But the marriage we had, the life we had was over. I blew it up. I destroyed it. We both came to a decision, and when she got back, that we did want to rebuild. And we went through this amazing process. We have a 2.0 anniversary. We have our regular anniversary.

Love that. We had a, uh, we had a date where we got each other new rings that represented a new commitment, a new marriage. Nothing fixed, ripped the foundation, gutted, gone. We built a brand new relationship. So we have 2 anniversaries. We have our standard anniversary, our 1.0 anniversary, and we have our 2.0 anniversary because we have chose to rebuild this This new life. And that process that my wife— my wife, she found her own recovery. And when she read the SAL book for the first time, cover to cover, she chose to enter the rooms of recovery herself.

And that process, me working my recovery, focusing on what I can control, her working her recovery, focusing on what she can control, the positive outcome of that has been us getting closer together. But when we were trying to focus on getting closer together, it didn't work. Yeah, the rock bottom was necessary in my case. And I think if people can get to a point where they can find their own rock bottom, but it's, it's hard. It's a hard thing and it's so individual and everyone walks their path.

But the good thing is, is God is walking with everyone on their path regardless of where they are.

Jonathan L.: Yeah. And the number one connection here we keep talking about obviously is this connection with God. And that connection with that higher power proliferates into all the other relationships, helps bring people together, right? I wanna talk about some specific relationships now about the coming out of isolation, but heading into kind of 2 places. One, the rooms of recovery with the brothers, and you've mentioned a few times it was amazing to meet some guys who just had what you wanted.

But then 2, a sponsor. So talk to me a little bit about how your introduction to SAL came along, how that felt in the first rooms, and how it felt finding a sponsor and getting that figured out.

Marcus H.: You know, it's so interesting because, um, when I went to move in with my in-laws, my wife had asked me to, to move out. She needs her space and her time. And thankfully I had in-laws that were close and local and they allowed me to move into their basement. And I'm eternally grateful for their grace and love. And that first night, I, I just had a heart-to-heart and just explained everything. And that was a very hard conversation.

And I was worried that it would impact things and With every encounter I've had with people, I have this in mind, this, this notion in my mind that it's going to turn out horrible. They're going to think less of me. It's going to sever everything. But in every instance, I've been met with grace and love and acceptance, and it's been very humbling. But in that moment, my mother-in-law said, oh, hey, do you remember Steven? And I'm like, Steven?

Yeah. The guy who, the real estate agent who sold us our business 15 years ago, the building. And I'm like, yeah. He said he and his wife started this program. It's like S-A-S something. I don't know. You should look them up. I think it might be good for you. And I was like, yeah, whatever. Okay, mother-in-law. You know, what do you know? That's crazy. I had no idea. Right. And then I found a therapist and I went to the therapist and he goes, you know what?

It's going to really help you. There's a program called SAL and you should go check it out. And I'm like, oh, I wonder if this is the same. So I looked up SAL and I saw Stephen was there and I saw SAL and I'm like, oh my gosh. This is the same guy. I, I, I, this is years ago. I remember him. I wonder if he remembers me. So I found the date and time of the meeting and I went into the building and downstairs and I had, there was nobody there.

And I'm like, well, here's the office, but there's nobody there. It said SAL or whatever. And then the door opened and Steven was in there and he was, he was getting some books or whatever. He's like, oh, are you here for the meeting? I'm like, yeah, I thought it started at 8. He's like, oh no, it started, or 7 or whatever. No, it started at 6:30. They're in here. Come with me. So I was just right in the middle of the meeting, walked in with Stephen, the founder of the program, and he remembered me.

I remembered him. And that first meeting, I have, I've gone to that same meeting ever since. And that just, it changed my life. So that's how I found SAL. And it's so interesting how God put Stephen in my life years ago, completely out of context. In fact, it was 20— it was 2001 that we met. So it was over 25 years ago. Wow. And Stephen hadn't even started the whole program, right? So for us to have that encounter early on and then to find that meeting, that's his actual home meeting.

He was my first temporary sponsor. He put me on the path of recovery. He gave me such strong counsel and guidance to do the work, show up, trust the process. Don't try to reinvent the wheel and try to do something that doesn't apply to me with Trust the process, do the work, show up. And so transitioning from him as my first temporary sponsor to finding a permanent sponsor, to sponsoring multiple individuals, every step of the way, as I've trusted the process, do the work.

It works when you work it. It's true. And stop trying to reinvent the wheel and make it unique and applicable to me and trust the process and do it. Stephen taught me that. And that's how I found SAO and that's how I Got into sponsorship and step work and becoming a sponsor myself was another huge milestone in my recovery of having everything hit home in a unique, different way.

Jonathan L.: Yeah. Can we talk about this perspective that you've probably gained now in your sponsorship, but also with sponsors? I wanna talk about this cuz when I, when I came to SAO, my thought was I'm gonna do the 12 steps. I'm gonna get this behavior kicked out the door and I'm gonna be all better and I will be outta here in 3 months, maybe max, right? 3 months. That's not what happens here. You and I are about, both of us about 4 years in this program.

Can you tell me a little bit about that shift of the perspective from, I got a program to finish to I've got a lifestyle to live?

Marcus H.: Oh man. Yeah. I couldn't, I couldn't think of a more applicable description of my mindset. What you just said right there, right? Yeah. I'm in therapy for the first time and mind you, I think therapy's for crazy people. That's my mindset. You know, 4 years ago, I'm just going to do it because my wife wants me to do it. It's going to show her that I'm serious about this. It was all the wrong mindset. I was stuck in the wrong mindset.

But he said, he was talking about 12-step and I was like, okay, well, what are the steps and what do I need to do? Again, need, what do I need? What do I need? And he made this comment that slapped me upside the head and I was highly offended. He said, I'm sick of all you people, especially in Utah, that think recovery is linear. Mm-hmm. Recovery is not linear. It's circular and expanding. And I was like, it's not linear.

There's 12 steps. There's 12 checkboxes. I do one a week. I'm golden. I'm gonna get my diploma. I'm fixed. Going back to this boat analogy. Yeah. The boat. I was in this boat and there was a huge hole gushing water in my sexual acting out behavior. I'm like, man, I just close this hole and patch it up. Use the 12 pieces of duct tape from the 12 steps. The water stops. My life's good. But what I found as I started working recovered genuinely and having my why shift and my desire shift and my mindset shift, as sobriety found me as a positive outcome of working and that water stopped coming in, all of a sudden I'm listening around me and there's water trickling everywhere.

And I'm like, what is coming in my boat? And it was all these pride, defensiveness, fear, resentment, all of these character defaults and these weaknesses that I didn't even know were there. Right. So recovery as a checkbox, linear progression. I've talked to so many individuals. I had the same mindset. Where's my diploma? I'm good. And unfortunately there's programs out there that take that mindset. Do it and you're good. Yeah. It's a circular, evergoing, I'm walking up this circular mountain just continually going.

And I've learned more and more that God cares less about where I am on this progression or this, this geographical point. He cares more about where I'm headed. Where is my heart? Am I headed towards Him in an effort to progress, or am I heading away from Him? When I feel distant from God, who moved? He didn't move. I moved. So this concept of linear progression, no, it's not. It's expanding. It's layers of an onion. It's circular climbing up a mountain.

It's all these things that, that are different than what I thought. But as I lived it and experienced it, it's just evergoing. And when I went through the steps for the first time and was going to reengage in the steps, I asked my sponsor, what do I do my first step inventory about? Like redo the same thing? He's like, why not pick one of your character weaknesses and do a first step inventory on it? So I'm like, great.

I go home and I'm like, honey, I had this amazing epiphany. I'm talking to my sponsor. He said, why not do step work on a weakness? Do something else besides sexual acting out to, to go through it. 'Cause it's ever ongoing. And she looked at me and she said, Marcus, what do you think I've been doing this whole time? And it dawned on me. It's like, duh, these principles work in every aspect of my life. Not just my sexual acting out behavior.

So that's what helped me get out of this linear check-the-box mindset because it's applicable across every aspect of my life. Anything that comes up for me where I'm deregulated, surrender works. Genuine surrender works. Anytime there's anything wrong that I'm encountering, a 10-step inventory works. Making amends ongoing is no box checking. So it's unfortunately a painful lesson that I've had to learn over the years, but Yeah, it is not just get my diploma and go. There's no magic portal.

Opportunity to— I get to do this. I get to go to meetings every week. I get to do step work. I want to go to a meeting. I want to do step work. Those are the things that have helped me the most.

Jonathan L.: Oh, I need to write this down. Maybe I need to put it on my hands. I get to. I need to change my own vernacular. This is my lesson I'm pulling from tonight. I appreciate this. Marcus, you've taken us— you've taken the journey of the willing heart with us through this entire discussion, from hiding and keeping things compartmentalized to cracking it open, having a broken heart from a situation in this, this rock bottom that you experienced, but that everyone who is seeking recovery is going to experience or has experienced at some point, all the way to the perspective of, okay, now I'm going to spend a lifetime repairing this and making myself something closer to a higher power.

closer to the vision for myself and being connected in that way, living a lifetime of recovery, a positive recovery. I love that. And this has been such an incredible discussion. I have 2 last questions for you. The first one is, you have the mic now. If there's anything that you could say to people who are just starting in this program, what would you tell them?

Marcus H.: I'd tell them a couple of things. I would tell them that they're worth And their value is divine and is 100 and is consistent and does not need to be defended. And their choices and behavior do not negatively impact their worth and value. And their positive work they're doing and their step work and all this does not artificially increase their value. Their value is consistent and it's in God's hands. So that's the first thing that I would say, because I did not realize that.

I did not realize, I thought I had to continually defend this. I had a really good, I love going to these recovery meetings with these young guys, right? Early 20 guys in their 20s. I'm 51, right? I'm like, man, would I have entered the rooms of recovery at 21?

Jonathan L.: I don't know.

Marcus H.: I'd like to think I would, but I have no idea. I was probably too ignorant and prideful at the time. But one of them said this thing that just blew me away. He said, when I'm in a situation where I'm encountering someone who's triggered, Nate, namely my wife, when she's triggered and she's emotionally reacting and she's going through a hard time. And she's like a bull in the china closet and a china shop. And all these dishes are getting broken.

I think those dishes are my value. That's what he was saying. The dishes are getting broken and my value is getting destroyed. And I want to defend myself. I want to protect my value. I want to save that special dish in the corner that she's about to break. And what he said is, I've realized that my, my worth is not in the china. My china, my worth, so to speak, is in a lockbox back in the warehouse in God's hands.

It's completely protected. So this concept, behavior negatively impacting worth or artificially increasing worth, that's a myth. That's the first thing. Second thing, sobriety is important, right? I don't think there can be recovery without sobriety, but sobriety is a number. And there's so much early focus on, oh, I'm not good enough. I can't speak up because I don't have enough sobriety. I'm not as good as that person because I don't have sobriety. They have— there's like a ranking of sobriety, who has seniority in the room or whatever.

That just— it's about genuine connection. Where's the heart? Do you want to improve? Do you want to get closer to God? As you do that, sobriety will come, but it's not a litmus test of your worthiness to speak up and contribute to meetings. I have had impactful interactions with someone who relapses daily. And someone who has 20 years of sobriety. So while sobriety is important, I think too much weight is put on a date and a number, and that relapse resetting all of a sudden again, it's taking from that value.

It's not though. The perception is they think it's taking from the value. It's not. So this concept of worth being 100 and constant and in God's hands, and this concept of sobriety, while important, is not the end-all be-all when it comes to Your progression along recovery.

Jonathan L.: Love it. That's so great. So much can be learned from that, honestly. The other group that I'm hoping you can speak to is there are some people who will be listening to this and they're considering coming back. They've done this recovery game for a while and it, it, they felt like it didn't work for them, or maybe they're plateaued in their recovery and they've been here for a long time. What would you say to someone who's been here, done it, and just needs, I mean, what's the next step?

Where do I go? That plateau. What would you say to a longtime person here?

Marcus H.: I think it's interesting because for me, what reinvigorates me and inspires me to continue doing the work is when I have other things come up in my life. For me, I've had a blessing in my life where the acting out behavior and that compulsion has lessened tremendously. It's not that in front of my face, water gushing in my boat type situation. So all these other areas of my life, when I apply it and just try it and work and do it, whatever comes up for me, any emotion that comes up for me, when I apply step work to it and see the effectiveness of it, it reinvigorates me.

It lights my fire again. It helps me understand that these principles work in all aspects of my life. It helps me understand that this process and this effort and this focus While initially for me it was about a sexual acting out behavior, it has transitioned now to where it's just being a, a stable, regulated individual and extending myself grace and being able to understand, you know, where I want to be and what I want to do and what I get to do.

So understanding that it's a privilege. I know early on my, uh, my sister-in-law, I was having a conversation with her when I was separated. She was kind of the go-between. My, my wife talked to her quite a bit and I talked to her as well. That's how we communicated a lot. But she said to me, she's like, well, you know, these meetings are probably something you're going to be doing the rest of your life. And I was like, what are you talking about?

No, not at all. I was offended, right? But what I've realized is, I don't know at what point in my life, but at one point in my life, I decided and committed that every Sunday for the rest of my life, I'm going to attend church. It's a privilege and an opportunity for me to get closer to God and to renew my relationship with him. On a weekly basis. I get to go to church every week, right?

And what I've done is I've been able to apply that to recovery. Once a week, at least, that's one of my bottom lines. Once a week, at least, I will attend a recovery meeting. I get to. It is joyous opportunity for the rest of my life to do that. So I, that, that's what I would say is if there's a plateau, if there is a kind of a stagnation, Just open the universal application of step work, open the universal application of recovery in general, and how it can help draw men and women closer to their higher power and help them become what God sees when he looks at them.

And that kind of, for me, has made that, that, that shift and helped me stay on that path of recovery and keep coming back, keep coming back. It works when I work it and I'm worth it. And that's where that desire and that why has made all the difference.

Jonathan L.: You are worth it. I love that. And I hope that's the message that people take away from this episode. Speaking with you, Marcus, I just want to thank you personally for sharing your hope, your experience, your light with us this, in this episode. As always, I am so grateful for this program and, uh, am very grateful for the opportunity for everyone to be able to find recovery as they work these steps. So with that, we'll be signing off.

Grateful for you, Marcus, and for this time. And, uh, Thank you. I hope you all come back. Keep coming back. It works when we work it. Thank you, Marcus.

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