Finding Hope & Healing from the Trauma of My Husband's Sexual Addiction w/ Rhyll Croshaw

Narrator: This is Pathway to Recovery, an SA Lifeline Foundation podcast featuring hosts Tara McCausland, who is the SA Lifeline Executive Director, and Justin B., a sex addict living in long-term recovery. We have conversations with experts and individuals who understand the pathway to healing from sexual addiction and betrayal trauma because we believe that recovering individuals leads to the healing of families.

Justin B.: Welcome to the Pathway to Recovery Podcast. My name is Justin B. I am a son of an all-powerful, all-loving God and a recovering addict to lust, a sex addict living in long-term recovery. And what a miracle and blessing that is in my life. Today I have the great opportunity and privilege to sit down and talk with Rill Croshaw, who is a co-founder of the SA Lifeline Foundation. And as we get into this conversation with her, she will be sharing some really cool, powerful, and vulnerable experiences that she has had as the wife of a sex addict who is now currently living in long-term recovery, but who was not for a long time.

And she'll be sharing about betrayal trauma and what that means and a way out, a solution for those who are really struggling in this. Now let's get to her bio. Rill Croshaw is a founder and vice president of SA Lifeline Foundation and a family and community advocate. SA Lifeline is a nonprofit foundation dedicated to providing hope, education, and resources related to pornography and sexual addiction recovery and the related betrayal trauma healing. Recognizing the critical importance of working 12-step for long-term healing, SA Lifeline also offers SAL 12-Step Recovery, a free resource for those struggling with sexual addiction and betrayed partners.

SA Lifeline is responsible for publishing and distributing He Restoreth My Soul and produced Understanding Pornography Addiction and Betrayal Trauma, Protecting Families, and What Can I Do About Me? Rill and her husband, Stephen, are frequent speakers at community and church events in many cities across the nation. They offer their personal firsthand account and learning experiences that have shaped and refined their, their shared recovery for more than 17 years. Rill is the author of What Can I Do About Me?

Healing from the Trauma of My Husband's Pornography and Sexual Addiction. Rill graduated from Brigham Young University at the relatively young age of 58, where she earned a Bachelor of Science degree in Family Life. Stephen and Ril have been married for 50 years and are grateful to be working recovery one day at a time. They are the parents of 7 children and 29 grandchildren. Ril, I'm really excited to have this conversation with you. So as, as mentioned before, I did already have a conversation with Stephen about sexual addiction and his experience with that.

And now you are the other side of that, that equation. So tell us a little bit about your experience of how How you came to learn about sexual addiction, about betrayal trauma, what your experience was with that. Let's, let's hear that story a little bit.

Rhyll Croshaw: Well, we had been married about 13 years when Stephen came to me and said, I need to talk to you. That term, that statement will still bring trauma to my heart because I've heard it several times. And then the way he said it was like, oh man. what? And that was, you know, we had 5 children at that time. Life was chaotic. He was very busy with his work, and I was a busy mom and in community and church efforts.

And he told me at that time his whole history from that point, from the time he was a child, finding pornography, masturbation, acting out with girls. And then it had gone to strip clubs and prostitutes. And in 13 years of our marriage, I had not seen one bit of proof that he acted out. He usually did that when he was traveling and was able to have a very double life. So I think as I look back, I was in shock.

But what's so interesting, and this is pretty common for a lot of women, at first I think my nature was to try and fix it or to help him feel better. And so I had some tears, but I was more worried about his tears and how he was feeling. And I determined at that point to, to be able to help him to be a better wife, better mother, take care of things a little better. And so at that point, he said, I'm not going to do this anymore.

And, and then life went on. And 10 years later, he comes to me again. I need to talk to you. And at that point, there was a combination of, of really a lot of frustration But anger and grief, I didn't feel that at the first time. I think I didn't understand how this was continuing on for years. And so that grief that I wasn't out of control, I never threw things, although there are probably times when I should have, but I'm not a yeller.

And so I really wanted to fix it this time. This is 10 years later. So we'd been married, what, 23 years at that point? And we had 2 more children. So now we have 7. And as I wanted in that second time, I, I read a book, I found a book, and I worked and worked to find a therapist. I didn't know anything about qualified therapy, and I certainly didn't know anything about betrayal trauma. But I did feel like I'm capable enough.

You know, I've painted the house, I've laid the sod, I should be able to fix this. I'm a capable person. And so I really worked that second time to find some education. And I read the books, I found the therapist, and he went somewhat willingly. 17 and a half years ago, 2005, he said, I need to talk to you. And at that point, I was like, you got to be kidding. But I really— I think it was my first real surrender moment on the front lawn of our home on a Sunday morning.

I raised my hands to heaven and said, take him. I can't do this anymore. I can't fix this. I have been trying for 32 years. And it's not working. And I felt at that time that our marriage was over, that I couldn't actually be true to myself by staying in the marriage after so many— I mean, he— this wasn't just one time acting out. This was— he would go 3 years sober. Now, that's something that's really important for us as women to understand.

Sober is not recovery. And so he could go 3 years at a time as sober, but then not actually be in recovery. And so how was I going to know? And so he found a therapist, a qualified therapist, really by the grace of God. And he started that very week going to 12-step and started reading his own materials, not me reading and saying, oh, Did you know this is the way it is? I really, at that point, stood back and I thought, I'm going to watch one day at a time.

I've got a roof over my head and enough to take care of my family, and I don't know if he'll change or not. But our therapist, at the very beginning of that third time, he said, could you stay with him if he's in recovery? And I said to him, I don't know what that means. How, how would I even know? Because he lies to me. And I said, he's a masterful liar. And, and the therapist said, you will know.

And I did not know what that meant that day, but the way that he said it spoke to me somehow that I would know, and that, that one day at a time I was going to know. But I wasn't going to know in one day whether he was in recovery or not, and that there was going to be something different than white-knuckle sober. Because what we've discovered is a person who is white-knuckle sober is just working on the next relapse, and I couldn't stick around for the next relapse.

We'd already had 32 years. I think at that point I was a little more confident and courageous and capable, but at that point They didn't. Nobody really talked about betrayal trauma. Some of the therapy that we had really talked about codependency. Somehow that term did not fit for me, although certainly in the first 13 years of my marriage, I was trying to fix things, manage things, take care of things, and there are codependent behaviors certainly there. But betrayal trauma is When I heard that term, and it was actually in the parking lot with the therapist one evening, and she said to me, are you aware that you've had more betrayal trauma than most women?

I was like, what? I don't know what that means. The definition of betrayal trauma is when someone we depend on for survival or significantly attached to violates our trust in a critical way. That's a definition of betrayal trauma. That's different than if we're in an earthquake or somebody attacks us on the street. And the way that it is different is that because we're connected so much to this person, there's a good chance that that trauma is going to happen again.

And over and over again. Then, as our therapist said, Your trauma is cellular. It's like, what? My trauma is cellular? And the more I have learned about trauma in general, I understand that it is. It does not go away. However, in recovery work, which I have done and that I help thousands of women do, is that We learn how to deal with things like trauma. We have the tools. Can I be triggered? Only a month ago, I had a dream that triggered me big time.

And I don't know where that came from. And I actually got myself dressed and said, I'm leaving the house. And I said to Stephen, I have just had this dream that has severely affected me. Now, this is 17 and a half years of recovery work. So he has 17 and a half years sober, but I can't just wish away the feelings of trauma. And thankfully, I have fewer and fewer and fewer because he's working to be trustworthy. And 17 and a half years of active work on my part and his part has really Blessed both of us and helped my trauma to subside, but it's not gonna go away.

It's within me. And that was really a critical thing for me to understand from a therapist who knows betrayal trauma.

Justin B.: Yeah. So let's pause there for a minute, 'cause I think that's a good spot to have a couple of questions about what you've shared there. There's a lot of really painful things and a lot of really deep things and emotional things that you shared there. First off, the first thing that I noticed is, you know, and this is a phrase that I've used drop a bomb on my wife. We need to talk. Tell me, what is a more healthy way?

Well, first of all, tell me what happened when your husband comes to you and says, we need to talk. And then tell me, what is a more healthy way to approach it if what we need to talk about isn't as dramatic or traumatic as what has happened in the past?

Rhyll Croshaw: You know, his work of recovery Is— has brought more of an attitude of peace about him. So he could say those words in a peaceful, calm way. And I have learned to sense where he's at. Now, our therapist 17 and a half years ago said, you will know. Well, I didn't know what that meant all those years ago, but I do now. know what his behavior in his addict mode looks like, feels like, talks like, walks like.

I can sense when he comes through the door if he is distracted, if he's disconnected. And I get to— here's part of my recovery— I get to trust my gut if I feel like something's off. So he could probably say similar words And I'd probably be just fine. If I'm sensing that something's off, where I see lots of shame, ooh, when I see and feel that shame, I'm going to say he's not in a good spot.

This, this could be really traumatic. And I think trusting my inspiration really is, as I've learned recovery work, I know that God is telling me something. Something's off. Did he tell me that before? Maybe, probably. But I didn't have the tools to know how to deal with it. Hmm. Now, recovery work really helps me to say, okay, where am I? And we're probably going into a different subject right now, but where— what am I feeling? And trust that.

But I also have learned to understand what he feels like, what the vibe is coming from him, whether he has positive light or this darkness that is like, hmm.

Justin B.: Yeah, so I really understand what— well, I don't understand. I do— I, I see what you're saying. And I want to kind of go back into, you know, you at 13 years married, and then 10 years later at about 23 years married. When that spidey sense wasn't as refined, you know, because a lot of people that'll be listening to and going through this may be fresh into the recognition of betrayal trauma, maybe fresh into the recognition that a spouse has a sexual addiction of some sort or has betrayed them in some other way.

You know, you were told you will know, and you didn't understand that then. Yeah. And it's a process. I don't think somebody's going to understand you will know in 24 hours after hearing this. But tell me a little bit more about that process to develop that spidey sense. What are some of the things you did to do that?

Rhyll Croshaw: Well, I started to learn about the addiction and how the lies and the deceit and the manipulation and the gaslighting are the things that bother us the most. What happens when I I feel those, but yet I don't trust myself. Then I go into hypervigilance. I'm overwhelmed. I might withdraw for sure. A lot of women go into isolation. They can't concentrate. Oh man, I know that feeling like, wait, where am I supposed to be? Especially with a new discovery of his behavior.

Maybe he's had an affair. My husband was— his rock bottom was being arrested for picking up a prostitute. But you know what? He didn't have to make that his rock bottom. There are many guys who can do that and hide that and lie about it and excuse it and deny it. And so that happened to be his rock bottom. Hallelujah! Somebody arrested him. Good job! Somebody's gonna help him to understand this is rock bottom. You know, I, I could have been praying for years for that, and I didn't know that that was the rock bottom I was praying for.

But he chose that as his rock bottom. And, you know, the intense emotions, the ups and the downs. And I think at some point we just don't want to feel those. And so some women are extremely angry and then, then they're totally sad and very seldom Are they peaceful in trauma? They have negative feelings about themselves, about their self-worth, about their bodies, a lot of comparison. Women who spend a lot of time trying to get the attention of their husband or a man with their body can be one of the symptoms of their trauma.

Sleep disorders, eating disorders, All of this is like, whoa, this is not necessarily just a mental illness. I have found very, very few women who have a diagnosable mental illness. In fact, I can't think of any right now that what's going on is not related to their husband's behavior. And yet so many people won't see that because he's Mr. Nice Guy out here. Right. In the public, but at home he might be lying and deceiving and blaming and resents her.

Resentment is the fuel to his addiction. And, and she doesn't understand what's going on.

Justin B.: How does that refine your ability to see where your husband is coming from? You know, you said when he walks in the door, you can often see, oh, there's a cloud around him, there's something going on, or, you know, he looks— he's present. How do you start developing that sense?

Rhyll Croshaw: It takes a lot of effort. For me, I had 3 years active work with a qualified therapist. It was mostly group therapy. However, the real work that I have done to find the kind of peace and serenity and direction that I need has been through 12-step. And as I've worked through 12-step, And I know there are people that say, well, it's not your fault. That means you shouldn't have to do this work. That is not true for us.

For me and so many women that I've worked with, it requires work to actually change my trauma brain. I have a trauma brain, especially early on. And our brains have plasticity and my brain can change from being living in fear Which, when I live in fear, I have to manage things, I have to control things, I feel afraid, of course. And, and that living in fear will cause me to not be true to myself. And so the key to finding out whether he's in a good place or not is really working my 12 steps, and the basis of that is putting God at my center.

Hmm. God at my center will teach me how— what, what's going on. And I'll trust that. I'll trust that gut feeling like something's off. Oh, guess what? If I feel like something's off, I hold a boundary. I surrender that first. I actually call my sponsor and pray it and I write it. And then I go, something's off and I'm not going to listen to his voice say to me, everything's just fine. Yeah. I would kind of listen to a different voice that says, hmm, something's off.

Keep yourself safe.

Justin B.: Thank you for that. I, I love that. Now, because I am a sex addict and because I know exactly what it feels like to be in the shoes that I'm in, when you say that, if I'm listening to this, I'm gonna say, oh, My wife needs to work on her stuff and that will help her understand me better, which is true, right? But, but tell me why my natural thinking to that and saying, hey, you need to work on this, wife.

It's your problem. Tell me why I'm wrong there and tell me how to walk through that.

Rhyll Croshaw: Yeah, better not say that, Justin. She might throw a punch at you.

Justin B.: Yeah, absolutely. There might be things thrown then.

Rhyll Croshaw: Yeah, it takes us a while to understand that. It took me a long time. My sponsor said to me years ago, Raelle, how long did it take you to find some recovery work? It's like, oh yeah, decades. And so we need to be really patient and gentle with ourselves. Stephen started going to 12-step about 3 years before I did. And that was because I didn't think I needed to do anything to change. And it truly— it's not about changing him.

It's helping me to understand who I really am, that I do have worth, that I am courageous, that God can be at my center to direct me and to help me feel safe. Those things are really what why I work my recovery is to, to have that guidance. The God of my understanding— whoever the God of your understanding is, that's up to you. But that's what I had to find, that connection that says I will listen to that higher voice, not to the voice of the person who has betrayed me.

And we'll see how this goes. Because trust and forgiveness are not the same. Right. Forgiveness is between God and me, and I know I have forgiven my husband. However, it has taken a very long time. I could say I forgive my husband and I could be divorced from him, but to trust him in this relationship has required him really working on being trustworthy and me Learning how to trust. A lot of women who have been betrayed for decades, especially, they don't want to trust any man.

They don't want to trust anybody because they've been so badly hurt, and that's understandable. But there is a process to get back to, I don't have to trust that man who has betrayed me over and over again until if So many will not do this. If he will do things that are trustworthy on a daily basis, little drops of I am trustworthy by being honest, 100% honest, and then I'm learning how to trust him. But it's not a fast process.

Justin B.: Yeah, I'm really enjoying this different perspective, you know, as my perspective is through the eyes of a sex addict and the experience of a sex addict. Seeing it from a different angle has really affected me a lot. And what you're sharing here is really powerful. And I'm a member of SAL 12-step, and we, we use the, the SAL book Recovering Individuals, Healing Families. And what a powerful experience it is to read and, and understand a little bit more from the perspective you're sharing.

One of the things that you've shared here that really has had some powerful impact on me is as you're talking about this, and maybe this is me wanting to soften the blow to myself again, as you're talking about this, you keep coming back to I need to be at peace. I can forgive and not trust still, but I can still hold my peace even if I'm not trusting. I can still, if I'm connected with God, if God is at my center, I can still be at peace even if there's not recovery happening in that.

I may make boundaries that separate me from that, not having recovery around me, but I can still be at peace. Walk me through that a little bit more because that's really powerful.

Rhyll Croshaw: It is powerful. The way that I can find peace is I have to find safety. And when I haven't been safe for decades, when my husband may have brought home an STD or he's had multiple other women? How do I find peace around that? So many women cannot find peace around that. I understand that. However, I have found some peace in understanding this is the process, and we read it in every SAO 12-step meeting. We read this, whenever I lose serenity.

Okay, that means I am worried about where my husband is at the moment, or I am fussing about what he did last year. And, and so whenever I lose serenity, these are the steps. I pause, breathe, practice self-care, even if that's just take a short walk. or go outside. Be honest about needs and my needs and emotions. Too many of us as women don't even know what our needs and emotions are. We might know our emotions, but we don't know what our needs are.

So be honest with my needs and emotions. Then I reach to the God of my understanding and another woman working recovery. So I have actually 2 sponsors. By praying writing and speaking the things I cannot change. And the first on my list when I have an addict husband is my addict husband. I cannot change him. Wow, I, I spent 30 years trying to do that. 32. And so then I am prepared then to ask God, what is the boundary that I need for safety here?

Now, what if he just spent $30,000 in hiding and didn't tell me about it last year, and I figured that out? What is my boundary? We need to have boundaries in all these areas— physically, emotionally, sexually, spiritually, financially. We have to have boundaries around behavior that is not safe for us or our family. And so if I have done those previous steps— pause, breathe, emotions, self-care— and call my sponsor, pray to God that I can let go of people that I can't change, and write it.

Now, I literally tear off a little scrap of paper after I've called my sponsor and left the message, and I write on it, I surrender to God that I cannot control whatever is bothering me. And I have a jar. I have a jar that I put it in. I stick it in there, then I walk away. It's like it's God's. And that actually works. And then the safety is around the boundary, because having not felt safe for so long, it's really hard to trust that we can ever feel safe.

But I say to myself and every woman I work with, What's your boundary? And you always have choice. Now, boundaries— I could spend an hour or probably 3 on boundaries because we don't understand how that works. And it says, if this happens, then this is what I must do. And I can't control what my husband does, but I can control what I need to do when a bottom line has been broken or I feel unsafe. And so learning that process, that pause, breathe, surrender, and hold boundaries, and then surrender the outcome, because he's not gonna like it at first.

But I can't tell you how many men— there are women addicts for sure, but I will say that how many addicts have said to their spouses, the difference was when you learned to hold boundaries for your safety.

Justin B.: Hmm, very interesting and very timely. And it's somebody else's story, but I am working with somebody who's experiencing this right now in his and his wife's own recovery, and it's very powerful. But when a boundary is first held and maintained by someone who has been betrayed, it does come across to the person that the boundary is against as a punishment. At least it's understood that way. Hey, you're punishing me. Why are you doing this? It's not fair.

It's not kind. It's not helpful. Tell me why it is helpful, why it is kind, and how it can strengthen both parts— parties of the equation.

Rhyll Croshaw: Well, it's really interesting and important for me to understand how the addict brain works or doesn't work. Resentment is the fuel for the addiction. And so I, I tell ladies, you could literally be an angel with a halo over your head, and in his addict, he is going to resent you. Not because of what something you did, but because it's the fuel for his addiction. It will entitle him to act out or to feel negative towards you.

You're the first person. So how do boundaries, especially when an addict is self-absorbed, which is selfish Everything is going to feel like it's punishment or something to resent, something to blame her about. And as women working recovery, it's really critical that I do the work around healthy boundaries. Healthy boundaries are not manipulation. They're not punishment. They're not control. They're none of those things. They are simply, I'm going to find safety for myself. And too many of us think we can control.

Like a woman I'm working with right now, she said, I'm going to control if he has Wi-Fi. It's like, well, bless your heart, you're not going to be able to tell whether he has it when he's out the door or not. But you are going to know based on what we call the circles models, the behavior in the circles models, which we use in SA Lifeline and SAL. His behaviors of resentment, blame, Anger, disconnection. Some of those behaviors will show whether you're safe or not, and you can't punish with a boundary.

That— and so it's a total paradigm shift. If I say, I don't want you to look at the internet, and that's it, that is not a boundary. That is not a boundary at all. That is expressing my wishes which has no power whatsoever. But the only communication that actually works for the addict brain is healthy boundaries consistently. And that's why I have to do the surrender process first, because my natural reaction will not be a response.

It'll be a reaction to like, oh no, oh no, he's doing this again. No, I want to respond in a healthy way. Whether my husband takes that as healthy or not, it's not my business. But if, if I have done my work around it, I've called my sponsor, I prayed it, I've written it down, I have taken a pause, I have confidence that God is actually helping me hold a boundary. And you know who it's good for?

It's not only good for me, for my safety, but it actually blesses my husband.

Justin B.: Yeah, you know, really you've said this a couple of times and it took me back to the Big Book of Alcoholics Anonymous. This is where I go very often with anything recovery and life related. You said, you know, resentment is one of the biggest killers. It's one of the biggest things. In the Big Book on page 64 it reads, resentment is the number one offender. It— resentment— destroys more alcoholics, addicts than anything else. From it— resentment— stem all forms of spiritual disease.

For we have been not only mentally and physically ill, we have been spiritually sick. Yeah, that's just a super powerful thing to recognize, that if I as an addict— and even I'm assuming even if you as a betrayed are feeling resentment— it's destroying us.

Rhyll Croshaw: Exactly, exactly. Resentment will destroy me also. I have in my 12-step book, I have a little note to self. I think it's on Step 4. Step 4 says, imagine myself at 80, a woman without recovery. And what I see is an old woman with resentment, big-time fear, not courageous, kind of a mat to be walked on, trying to make everybody happy. Oh, that's— that is not an attractive woman to me. And I'm only 10 years away from that. Hallelujah! I've been working some recovery because I don't want to be that 80-year-old woman in fear and resentment and victim.

Oh, victim. We read this in our book every week also. We may have been victimized. However, we choose not to be paralyzed as victims because we work our recovery. I am not a victim to my husband's behavior. I was at some point, but I, I was victimized, but I choose not to be a victim. Because as, as a victim, I'm not only paralyzed, I'm, I'm beaten down. I can't do what I need to do, and I can't do what God wants me to be.

And I need to be this woman with a continual soft heart but a backbone of steel and hands that are prepared for the fight. The fight is not with our husband. The fight is against evil. So if I can stand up against evil and things that are wrong, which is betrayal, especially sexual betrayal, that's just wrong in a committed relationship. So I can stand up and stand up for myself, but I have to do it in a way that I can still be true to myself.

Not throwing things and swearing and yelling, although I actually had an experience like I'm gonna go and just throw things. Just nobody's gonna get hurt. I'm just gonna do this in the bedroom in the basement. Wow! I mean, I couldn't even. I just cried. I just it all those bad words I was gonna say got stuck in my throat, and and I realized. that the way that I was letting it out was just through sobs and sobs and sobs, which has been really important for me.

Sometimes I go, I think I need a good cry. Hmm. Not just— it's not about sexual addiction. It's just about life. And life's hard, but there's so much joy to it.

Justin B.: You know, one of my mentors in recovery, riffing on what you just said about life, and this may be counter to what, what some people say in, in the rooms that we're in here, but this person says when somebody says to, to them, hey, I'm feeling triggered, they say life is a trigger. That's good. Figure it out. Find serenity. Life is a trigger. You can't breathe without being triggered. Yeah. Get some serenity and go with it.

There's something I want to go into here that's kind of shifting gears a little bit. It's on the same topic totally, but shifting in a different direction. Let's put ourselves in a room a month from now after this is released or so. There's a betrayed partner here sitting with her husband saying, hey, I want you to listen to this. This is what we're going to do for our activity tonight, whether it's done with healthy boundaries and the husband's willing, or it's, it's a controlling thing, whatever it is.

And the husband is listening along and saying, well, I never got a prostitute. I never went out. You know, pornography and masturbation is really the extent of my addiction. And you shouldn't be feeling this type of betrayal because I never went outside of the marriage in that way. Tell me why From your experience in yourself and in working with lots of others, why that is an incorrect statement or an incomplete statement?

Rhyll Croshaw: That is— I'll just speak for me as a woman in a committed relationship. I want to be connected in every way to the man who has committed to me. And when he goes to pornography and masturbation, That is a sexual betrayal that hurts my heart. This addiction is different than drug addiction. You know, he has to go out and find his drug. He has to go out and get some alcohol. And I've worked with women who have husbands who were drug addicts and sex addicts at the same time.

And these women have said to me, I would much rather have the drug addiction in my relationship than the sex addiction. This is a personal addiction when, when we're told that the person that we rely on for connection and intimacy is going someplace else. And if you heard the podcast by Roy Kim, the therapist, he speaks to it very well about this feels adulterous. And I know many men, let's just say many men, not all, will say, this is not a big deal.

You know, I'm not going out with other women. And I tell you, I've heard this before. A woman will call me, I never know who she is. And she'll say, well, my husband says, well, I'm not as bad as Stephen Proshock. It's like, yeah, we all compare, don't we? And, and yet she is feeling so devastated by the fact that no longer is he sexually interested in her. There are a number of reasons why porn is anti-relationship, anti-marriage, anti-connection.

And if you want to have a connected relationship, start working on your marriage and get rid of the porn because your relationship will and is going to suffer big time. The other thing is, is that porn is the entry drug into sexual addiction. My husband started with porn as a child and didn't know what he was dealing with and certainly wasn't addicted as a child. But as he got older, he needed it to— and so understanding the definition of addiction and recognizing that not everybody's addicted, and we'll look at it that way.

But let's treat behaviors that are, that can, are consistently coming back and back and back and then have negative consequences. Let's treat it as an addiction. Treat it like an addiction. Otherwise, we won't treat it like the, the response, the recovery will not be appropriate for. If somebody goes in for a heart issue and they're diagnosed with diabetes, they're not going to get the right treatment. It's the same thing. Let's treat this as an addiction and then we'll get the right treatment.

But as far as women, it, it devastates us because I am a sexual being. And that is a God-given gift. And my husband too. But when he uses that, it hurts my heart. It causes me to feel like I'm not enough. And it— there's a wedge in the relationship.

Justin B.: Thank you for sharing that. That's the concept of, you know, I'm not as bad as Stephen Crowshaw, as we said here in this. For me, I have to put the word yet in there. Right, right. You know, because like you said, addiction is a progressive disease. It's a progressive situation. It's a progressive condition. It will continue to progress. And I can see that in my own practice. Hey, where this started is, is nothing. It's not gonna satisfy the itch that I have to scratch now.

Mm-hmm. And that will continue to grow and grow and grow forever and ever and ever until I finally address it, get healthy with it in a 12-step situation or in counseling or whatever it is that brings about that healing that works. And I tried a lot of different things before I finally found what works for me so far, One Day at a Time. And I pray that it'll continue to work. I pray that I will continue to work it one day at a time for the rest of my life because it works.

It works.

Rhyll Croshaw: And it helps me. My recovery works for me. I find joy. I find peace. I was just telling you that I went and stood out under the apple tree and the blossoms were falling on me. It was like, there's God in my center. He just gave me a gift. Apple blossoms in the spring falling on me. And I, years ago, when I didn't know anything about recovery, I took a chair out under that apple tree and I sat under there because I needed healing.

I needed some kind of healing. And today I went out there with so much joy, and I just turned my face to the sun and let those apple blossoms blow on me. And I know because of that experience, even then when I had that, that turmoil and, you know, what's happening, my life is unmanageable, like 20 years ago. And now to feel the joy is I probably in my check-in tonight will call it my God's hand in my life today, the difference in my life from 20 years ago to today.

But as you said, this is a progressive disease. Addiction doesn't just want more, it wants different. It wants different. And so nobody can really say, well, I would not go that far. My husband wouldn't. I'm 60 years ago, he would have said I wouldn't go that far. But because it's a brain addiction, it's part of the, you know, our brain needs more in order to get the same hit. And that's what some of the education that I have learned about addiction and specifically about this sexual addiction.

We don't know where it's going to go and they don't either. So let's work recovery before we hit the wall big time.

Justin B.: Yeah. And how many lines in the sand did I draw and say, I will never cross that line, and then I just blew right by it? Oh, well, I'll never cross this line. Yeah, it just continues to grow, just like what you said. So I've got a couple more questions for you, Ril. First one that I really would love to hear your testimonial on is the phrase, there is hope. Tell me a little bit about what that means to you today and how you have experienced that phrase, there is hope.

Rhyll Croshaw: It's almost like I can't express it. It's a little bit like me standing under the apple tree 2 hours ago and feeling that and going, my life is so full. I am so grateful. And there is so much hope for the, for the new woman who comes in. And I talk to women nearly every day that are— someone is new, they're in so much trauma. They've discovered after 47 years their husband's been lying. And I remind myself to stay young in recovery, to recognize even though I don't feel that kind of pain like I did 30 years ago, to remember what that feels like so that I can empathize with another woman who was going through that, and that as I empathize, I can share that hope with her that it can get better.

Just time is not going to make it better. Just getting out of and getting a divorce is not going to make it better. I have in my 12-step book, therefore but the grace of God go I, that 17 and a half years ago when I thought that divorce was the only answer after 32 years, that I decided to trust God one day at a time. And I had that feeling he was saying to me, just one day, give me one day.

And even sometimes it's just like, give me 10 minutes, I'm going to be with you. Okay, give me another 10 minutes, I'm gonna, I'm gonna show you my love in little, little bits. Not a gratitude journal necessarily, but look for God's love in my life. And one day at a time, as I look back over the 17 and a half years, I, I think I did not know, and I couldn't guarantee this was going to work out, but I decided that God was going to be my center no matter what.

I wasn't going to listen to the voice that had been lying to me for 32 years. I was going to listen to God's voice, and that meant that if my husband chose light He was going to do all the things that would be required of recovery. But I have discovered that I needed to choose more light also. I always believed in God. I was a believing woman. But I had discovered in this process a deeper connection with the God of my understanding.

I know he loves me, and I know he loves every single woman Out there that I'm working with. I know he loves us all. How can he possibly love me and her with all, all of his being at the same time? I don't know. I don't get that. But he loves me. He will guide me. He will guide this woman that's new and in so much pain and trauma. But she needs to be patient, and she needs to work it.

Just one day at a time, one day at a time. And I look back and go, I can't believe one day at a time. I've had an amazing 17 and a half years. Our kids have grown. Our grandchildren know our story when they're at an appropriate age because we want them to know that God loves them and that change can be made. And that if they have struggles, especially with this issue, sexual addiction, or betrayal trauma, there is hope.

It doesn't just come because you pray for it. It comes because God will help me work through it. And he has, and he will every woman who comes to him.

Justin B.: Love it. And my experience is that God even loves me, a sex addict.

Rhyll Croshaw: And he does. I know God loves my husband. And he has given him so many blessings and gifts and opportunities. Pain is the pathway to progress, and nobody likes that. We're all trying to run away and medicate from pain. But in our 12-step work, we talk about pain as the pathway to progress. Oh, are you kidding? No. I'm gonna walk into that, but I'm not gonna walk into it alone. God will be with me and there will be another woman.

My sponsor, thankfully, will walk into that painful place with me 'cause she's been there.

Justin B.: Yeah. And one more line from the Big Book and then I'll get to the last question here. This is from page 83. This is 9th Step Promises of Alcoholics Anonymous. If we are painstaking about this phase of our development, we'll be amazed before we're halfway through. And then there's a list of 12 promises. I'm not going to go into them, but to get to those promises— painstaking— I will have to take pain. I will have to step into discomfort, uncomfortability, and move towards it.

The thing that I want most, I'm gonna have to go to the place I least want to go in order to obtain that thing. And it takes some pain, but man, is it worth it. Man, is it worth it. Okay, my last question for you, real Yes. What would you like to share with the newcomer and with the more seasoned person in the rooms? What advice or words of wisdom do you have for them?

Rhyll Croshaw: Oh, let's start with the more seasoned. You know, I've been working on this for 14 years, and I just went to my SAL 12-step meeting this morning, and I was so, so grateful to be there. We talked about complete honesty. And really, how, how does that work in my life? I was not the dishonest person, right? But we talked about being completely honest in our needs and emotions, and how to do that without being harmful to other people.

Being direct, but not doing harm. And how do we do that? And so that's what one of the things we talked about. I think that what I've seen is that we start to really get lackadaisical and we think, I'm good. And I have felt that. I have felt that. And then I go back to a meeting and I'm like, wow, I needed to be centered. I needed to be reminded of the gifts of recovery and what it takes because life's gonna be life.

But like you said, life is going to trigger us. Our kids are going to trigger us. Our, our health. I don't know what. Lots of different things. And so that's what I would say to the— Plus, how do I keep the sense of serenity and peace? It says it right in the 12th step. As long as I continue to give it away, I will continue to have it. And that blesses my life so much. I give it away to another woman who is in so much pain and trauma and confusion, then that helps me.

And then for the newcomer, oh, I say to the newcomer, this is hard, and come and we'll wrap our arms around you and say this is hard, and we'll validate the pain, and you will understand that there are tools that will help you recover from this pain. And these tools will be available to you because you're going to have a sponsor who has walked this path and works this path. And to the newcomer who will be angry and sad and tired, I have been there.

And I, I call it a pathway. You know, we call this podcast Pathway to Recovery. Well, along that path, there are some benches. I have put some benches. I can see them in my mind. There are— there's a bench, and it's enough for 2. And you may want to crawl under that bench and bawl your eyes out and say, I don't want to do this anymore. And I'll sit on the bench and I'll wait for you. Just don't leave the path, because it's worth it.

And you may want to sit down on that bench and we'll just talk a bit. And it's okay, just don't leave the path because the gifts along this path are so beautiful. Thank you, Justin. It's so good to work with you. Thank you. And to understand your side, and you understand ours, and we understand each other. As Stephen said, I don't wish to close the door on the past. It was like, really? Sometimes I would. And then I think I could never go back to not knowing and understanding the things I've learned in this process.

Never go back. Yeah. Because it has refined me. It has blessed my life and my family so much. How do I be a good mom? I work recovery.

Justin B.: Beautiful. I'm gonna close this out with a phrase we use at the end of SAIL 12-step every time. Keep coming back. It works when I work it. So work it. You are worth it.

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