Q&A – What is healthy vs. unhealthy sexuality?

Narrator: This is Pathway to Recovery, an SA Lifeline Foundation podcast featuring hosts Tara McCausland, who is the SA Lifeline Executive Director, and Justin B., a sex addict living in long-term recovery. We have conversations with experts and individuals who understand the pathway to healing from sexual addiction and betrayal trauma because we believe that recovering individuals leads to the healing of families.

Tara McCausland: Welcome to the Pathway to Recovery podcast. I am your host, Tara McCausland, and I have here with me my co-host, Justin B. Thanks, Justin, for coming on.

Justin B.: Hey, Tara, I'm glad to be here today.

Tara McCausland: And I just have to let our listeners know, I am very grateful for Justin and his willingness to spend the time on this podcast. He is a volunteer and he's a very busy man. So just a big shout out to Justin and also to Aubrey, who does our, our transcription. So we have people working behind the scenes as well to make this podcast possible. So if you're enjoying this podcast, may I invite you to pause this episode and go to Apple Podcasts and just rate and review for us?

That really does make a big difference in helping people who are looking for similar content find this podcast. And here at SA Lifeline, we're always working to provide quality education. This is a free resource. And so by you going and rating and reviewing this podcast on Apple Podcasts, it really does help other people find it. So without further ado, Justin, we really have our work cut out for us today.

Justin B.: Yes, yes, we do.

Tara McCausland: At our recent conference, our 2023 conference, one of our attendees asked the question, What is healthy sexuality? So in the world of sexual addiction and betrayal trauma, obviously, we spend a lot of time talking about what we shouldn't be doing. And her question was related to, so what should we be doing? What are the, the positives that we can be doing to develop a healthy sexual identity and healthy sexual relationship? And so great question. Justin and I, we wanted to make clear from the get-go that neither one of us is a credentialed professional in this area.

So this is coming from a space of personal experience and our learning in the space of sexual addiction and betrayal trauma. And so take this for what it, what it is. And we hope that this is helpful. But as we look at this question, Justin, what is healthy sexuality? In a previous Q&A, we were talking about the sobriety definition. And that talks more about what we don't want to be doing. But why do you feel, Justin, that it might be helpful for both partners to familiarize themselves with that definition so that they can develop healthy sexuality moving forward?

Justin B.: Yeah, that's a good question. And one that, that I'm going to try and go at. But before I get to that, I want to give my qualifications here. I've received a PhD in the school of hard knocks, the school of failure in this area. And I want to say, hey, I'm not coming to you from a high ground of any sort. My wife and I still struggle with the concept of healthy sexuality in our marriage. We've been married 26 years.

I've been in the rooms of recovery for 10 years, and she for 16+ years. And we're still trying to figure that out. So it's a, it's a progress, not, not perfection goal. So, but your, your question on why is it important for both partners in a relationship to pretty much adhere to the sobriety definition that we have in SAL 12-step, which is no sex with self, no sex with anybody outside of the marriage, avoiding pornography. I think it's somewhat similar to if I'm an alcoholic, and I'm married to someone who may not be an alcoholic who maybe has a glass of wine with dinner.

That may not be a big deal to some people, but it may be a really big deal in certain situations. And in this area of sexual addiction and where we come at it in SAL, that's God-centric. We believe that, that there's, there's a tie there between sex and connection with God. And anything that I do that's going to cut off my connection with God, whether I'm an addict or not, is going to be harmful to my, my relationship with my spouse and with God.

And that's kind of my take on that. What are your thoughts on that, Tara?

Tara McCausland: Well, one reason why I bring that up is because we did actually have another question at the conference where someone asked, is it ever appropriate for the non-addicted spouse to masturbate? And I thought that was an interesting question. I recognize that in our culture, sex with self or masturbation has become very normalized and suggested as even being healthy. In some situations. And we also recognize here at SA Lifeline that, that even pornography is recommended by some professionals as a way to maybe spice up things in the bedroom or keep things novel between 2 committed partners.

But this is our take on masturbation and pornography used jointly as a couple or for either partner. addicted or not. We would strongly encourage individuals to avoid taking counsel from groups or individuals who encourage or justify or downplay the effects of pornography use and masturbation in the marriage relationship. Our experience working with thousands of people suggests that pornography and masturbation are harmful to long-term committed relationships. They increase likelihood of sexual dysfunction. with your real partner, and they hinder the development of healthy sexuality.

So if you want to understand more of why this is, I think it would be helpful to go back to or refer back to an early episode with a therapist, Roy Kim, and he talks about sexual addiction and how sexual addiction is formed. But we believe that porn and masturbation, regardless of whether or not you consider yourself addicted, are the gateway drugs of other compulsive sexual behaviors, and they will get in the way of Healthy sexual development.

So I wanted to start there because our sobriety definition, I think, is helpful for both partners so that they understand, yes, what not to do, so that they have a good clean slate, so they can start building up in a positive way. Does that make sense, Justin?

Justin B.: Yeah, it does. It does. Thank you for sharing that. And I loved the information you brought into that, that helped even clarify things for me and my understanding in this place.

Tara McCausland: So yeah, going back to that question, what is healthy sexuality? That's a big question. And I was looking at some of the sources, the qualified education I have looked at to help me in my marriage, because as Justin suggested, he's coming at this from a place of this has been a struggle in their marriage, partly because of addiction, and probably partly because it's just a hard issue in marriage usually. Right. But I'm coming at this from I am not married to a sexual addict.

He is a man that has not struggled with pornography use. But this is still something that we have had to work at as a couple. And so I think something that I wanted to mention as we get going here, and this might be a longer Q&A just because of the nature of this question, I think it's really, really important for us to understand that just like any other quality or skill Healthy sexuality is something that we must work at and develop over time as individuals.

And so if we think we're going to go into a marriage or a committed relationship, just knowing how to have a healthy sexual relationship, we're fooling ourselves. Right. Just like we have to work at communication and financial management, all those things that we have to do with our our spouse, we have to work at the sexual relationship and be very patient and approach it with a very humble posture.

Justin B.: Absolutely. It's just like, you know, parenting, we got to get on the same page and getting on the same page as husband and wife, as committed partners. It takes time. Very rarely is somebody just going to say, oh yeah, I agree fully with you. And our backgrounds are such that this is just going to work really simply and easily. Now, I think that In today's culture, many people think that, you know, sex is sex. And if you're, if you're having it and you're enjoying it, then that's healthy.

But we need to look at that, I think, through a different lens, especially coming at if one or both of the partners is a sexual addict. So yeah.

Tara McCausland: And something also really critical to mention in this discussion is that the dialogue around this is really going to be influenced by your values. If you believe in God, if you have a God of your understanding that you are working on having a really connected relationship with, that's going to shift the conversation about what is healthy sexuality. And what are— what's the purpose of our bodies? Are they just objects, ornaments? Or are they God-given to experience life with and to love and serve and experience all the joys of life?

And so when we talk about healthy sexuality, I would almost start with the question of who is the God of your understanding and what has that God said about the purpose of your body?

Justin B.: Wow, that's a good question to start with depending on your conception of God and what you believe that, that looks like. But I go to, you know, one of the things, and I think this will go into what you just asked here. This is from the Big Book of Alcoholics Anonymous. Now you may think, well, what does the Big Book of Alcoholics Anonymous have to say about sex and healthy sexuality? There's actually 3 full pages and a full section of the Step 4 inventory that are all about sex and sex harms.

And I'm going to read a couple of pieces of a couple of paragraphs from the Big Book. And this is on page 69, 70. So 68, 69, and 70 are the 3 pages that, that address this. But I'm going to read here. This is basically the bottom 2 paragraphs on page 69. We tried to shape a sane and sound ideal for our future sex life. We subjected each relation to the test. Was it selfish or not? We asked God to mold our ideals and help us live up to them.

So I want to pause there real quick on this. So here it says, going back, it talks about what kind of harms have I caused in my sex life? Well, if I'm a sexual addict, I've caused all sorts of sexual harms in my life. And we're trying to figure out how do we make this work moving forward as we heal. Well, the question— it's not who do I— I don't ask, oh, my neighbor. I don't ask the pornographic videos.

I ask God to help me mold my ideals and help me live up to those ideals. We remembered always that our sex powers were God-given and therefore good, neither to be used lightly or selfishly, nor to be despised and loathed. So there's a few key questions in there. Selfishness. If I'm, if I'm going into my relationship with my spouse, and the only purpose for that sexual relationship is for me and my gratification, me and myself soothing, me and my relieving of my stress, whatever it is, there's selfishness there.

And it's all about me. And that is very likely tied to lust. So based on what I've said here so far, Tara, what are your, what are your thoughts on that?

Tara McCausland: Well, I really like that. And we really are coming at this from a very different perspective, I think, than a professional might. When you read that paragraph, I thought the God of my understanding is pro-sex. And so, well beyond procreation, God gave men and women sex to deepen and strengthen the marriage relationship. I believe and know that healthy sexuality within The committed relationship of marriage between a man and a woman deepens ties and connections. But if, if we are coming at it from a selfish perspective, I do not believe that that is how God intended it to be, because that is not connecting.

Right. That it's isolating and it's self-gratifying rather than making it about the joint pleasure and connecting of the 2 individuals.

Justin B.: Right. No, absolutely. And I think that's really important. And I'm going to read on just a little bit here. The next paragraph about halfway through, we treat sex as we would any other problem. In meditation, we ask God what we should do about each specific matter. The right answer will come if we want it. And I think that's vital. Anytime I go to my higher power, to God and say, hey, this is what I want, and I list it off.

I'm not wanting to know what God's will is, what his— what God's ideals are for me to live up to them. Now, if I go and say, hey, help me understand this and then help me live up to it, because that's vital. And I'm not perfect, I won't be perfect. But as I aim in the right direction, I can get closer to what I believe God's ideals are for me in my marriage and my sex life with my spouse.

Tara McCausland: Well, in our Understanding Pornography Addiction and Betrayal Trauma manual, there is an interesting comparison that Dr. Jill Manning, who is a great advocate of SA Lifeline and a great therapist— we've had her on the podcast— she prepared this so that we can contrast healthy sexuality and pornographic portrayals of sexuality. And I want to preface this with Jeff Stewart, who is also someone we had on recently. He said, years ago in a presentation that pornography has become the wallpaper of our lives.

And so when you consider how much our culture has influenced how we view sex and sexuality, how we view the body, we really have to go back to the God of our understanding then to help us maybe clear out some of that garbage. Because so much of developing healthy sexuality isn't just learning what's good, but unlearning all of the cultural brainwashing that has been done to us, right? Yeah. So I felt like this list that was prepared by Jill Manning was really helpful.

And again, it was a contrast of pornographic portrayals of sexuality versus healthy sexuality. So if you're interested, this is on page 22 of this manual, but I'm just going to read down through this list and we might just highlight a couple of them. So pornographic portrayals of sexuality, it's lustful, versus a healthy sexual relationship is loving. Pornographic portrayals of sexuality, it's public, right? That's what pornography is.

Justin B.: Even though we may try and hide it, but still, it is public. Yes, right.

Tara McCausland: Healthy sexuality is going to be private. It's going to be seen as sacred. between married individuals. Pornographic portrayals are isolating. Again, I think this is what's so different from how the world portrays sexuality versus how I believe the God of my understanding wants us to see it. And this is me speaking from me, okay? Mm-hmm. Sex addiction is all focused on lust and self-gratification. It takes the person into an isolated spot and they They experience sexual feelings by themselves without connecting with an individual versus healthy sexuality is unifying.

It's bringing together a committed husband and wife and deepening and unifying a relationship.

Justin B.: Well, going back before that, that pornography has become the wallpaper of our lives, the images, the expectations that many people take into a sexual relationship after being dominated by pornography is always unrealistic and harmful. And nobody can live up to the image that is there that, that does that. And that can really harm a relationship from either side, from either side. So, but I think leading into that, the isolating versus unifying, the lustful versus loving, as an addict, It is really hard for me to draw that line between loving and lust because I sincerely believed lust was love.

Now, I didn't believe that love was lust, but I seriously and sincerely believed that lust was love. When I'm doing these things, I am expressing love because my love language is physical touch or whatever. And that is really a difficult line to draw. But once it becomes apparent in recovery, it's, well, it's apparent. So any, any additional thoughts on that, Tara?

Tara McCausland: Yeah, that's tricky. How do I distinguish between lust and love? Because again, our culture has watered this down and muddied it so much that we almost don't even know the difference. And so I suppose I can only speak again from my personal experience here, and I know when I'm in a loving mental space, I am unselfish. I am concerned for my husband's feelings and wellbeing. That doesn't mean that we shouldn't work toward both partners enjoying the sexual relationship.

That's not what I'm talking about. Neither one should become a doormat to the other. But I know when I'm in a space of This is about an experience we're both creating and enjoying together versus this is all about me and perceiving you as an object for my gratification. Does that make sense?

Justin B.: Yeah, that line is really hard to distinguish. And I think it takes— well, like I said, my wife and I have been married 26 years, and she's been working recovery for over 16 and me for over 10. And we're still trying to figure it out that that line is still hazy in several places.

Tara McCausland: So Yeah. And I hope for our listeners that this isn't triggering. We recognize this is tricky. This is a tricky conversation. But I think that it is worth trying to discuss some of these things because this is a real challenge in marriages across the board, not just those plagued by addiction. So this is kind of a long list, and it's probably a little bit tricky for our listeners. So probably what we should do is We will put this up as a blog post so that they can actually see this list.

Look for a link at the bottom of this post of this episode so that you can see this list. But I'm gonna run through more of these. If we're going to continue with Dr. Manning's contrasting views here, pornographic portrayals of sexuality are deceptive. They're not showing reality. Oftentimes there's violence going on, right? These are not committed individuals. They're, they're there to put on a show, right? Healthy sexuality is honest. Pornographic portrayals of sexuality are fantasy-based. 100%. What you're seeing there is, is all fake.

Healthy sexuality is anchored in reality with real people who are trying to connect in a meaningful way. How about you read?

Justin B.: Yeah, I'll read a few of them here. So next one on the pornographic portrayals of sexuality is the body is treated as an object toy or weapon versus healthy sexuality. The body is sacred and very vital to recognize that anytime I'm objectifying anyone, even my spouse, it's damaging. Pornographic decreases well-being while healthy enhances well-being. Pornographic is degrading. It really is. It's degrading. And healthy sexuality is respectful and honorable. If I'm doing anything that's degrading to my spouse in any way, shape, or form, Even if I think that it's loving, it is not.

It is not. Pornographic portrayals involves using or harming someone, and healthy sexuality involves loving someone. Yeah, I mean, these are, these are super powerful. And in many of these, the line is so clearly drawn that it's easy to see one side from the other. Spiritually deadening versus spiritually meaningful. Socially irresponsible and costly versus socially responsible and beneficial. Healthy sexuality is beneficial to society. It's responsible to society, involves violence and coercion rather than mutual consent and volition.

And pornography is absolutely 100% associated with crime, abuse, infidelity, addiction, prostitution, and divorce, whereas healthy sexuality is associated with life and joy. That's the remainder of that list that we'll have up on that blog post there.

Tara McCausland: Yeah, excellent. Well, and once again, I know that whoever posed this question was looking for, so how do I develop a healthy sexual relationship, a healthy sexual identity? As we're closing out our month where we've been discussing quality education, we would encourage you to seek out good information sources that are in line with your values, From an Essay Lifeline standpoint, we would again caution you to— even if someone has the same faith tradition as you, we highly recommend that you move forward with caution and make sure that what they're teaching is in line with your values.

It's very easy to become a follower of certain influencers in this realm and to just kind of take what they say as, as good and right and, and in line with your value system. But we encourage you to be thoughtful consumers of information when it comes to this subject. Look for good information and then be critical thinkers as you're consuming that information. I see far too often people going to therapists and simply because they are credentialed So to speak, and they share supposedly the same faith tradition.

They just believe that everything that comes out of their mouth is going to be healthy and positive. So that's a caution from SA Lifeline, but also an invitation to go out and learn and be proactive in developing healthy sexuality in your marriage. It does require work. It does require effort, just like any other part of your life. Where, Justin, do you think we got the false notion that this would just come easily to us?

Justin B.: I think, I think in the pornographic culture is where we got the false information. Hey, hey, I just met you on the street. Hey, let's go, you know, and everything works out perfectly. And that's how, that's how it's portrayed. And that's, I think, why we think that, you know, sex should work out beautifully and easily with no hiccups or trips.

Tara McCausland: So if this is a hard subject for you personally or in your marriage, you're in good company. Don't feel like there's something wrong with you, but we hope that this has been helpful. The God of my understanding is pro-sex and has given us these bodies to enjoy and to live our best lives, including connecting with our spouses and deepening that relationship so it can be as strong and as joy-filled as possible. Do you have any other closing thoughts, Justin?

Justin B.: My closing thoughts will be from one of the readings we do in SAL 12-step, either opening or closing readings. It comes from the White Book of Sexaholics Anonymous from page 204. It's The Solution, and I'm going to read 3 paragraphs here, and then I'll close that up with a thought of what I— how I think this ties into what we've just shared. We saw that our problem was threefold: physical, emotional, and spiritual. Healing had to come about in all 3.

The crucial change in attitude began when we admitted we were powerless, that our habit had us whipped. We came to meetings and withdrew from our habit. For some, this meant no sex with themselves or others, including not getting into relationships. For others, it also meant drying out and not having sex with the spouse for a time. to recover from lust. So I'm, I'm gonna come back to that in just a minute, but I wanna read one more paragraph.

We discovered that we could stop, that not feeding the hunger didn't kill us, that sex was indeed optional. There was hope for freedom, and we began to feel alive. Encouraged to continue, we turned more and more away from our isolating obsession with sex and obsession with self. and turned to God and others. I think this pertains to what we've been talking about is if I believe that sex is an absolute need and it is driving me, I probably am coming from— coming to it from a place of lust.

If it is a way to enhance the relationship I have with a committed partner And it is done unselfishly and with love, then it's healthy. And if both partners are on board, it's healthy. Now, the thing that I want to get to here is for many of us who are like me, if you are a sex addict like me, there is likely a drying out period that needs to happen, of course, with the agreement of your spouse.

You know, I've heard people recommend 30 days. I've heard people recommend 60 days, 90 days, whatever it is that you feel the God of your understanding is guiding you to. Maybe that's what needs to happen. Absolute fasting from sexual interaction for X number, X amount of time so that lust can leave the body. Because even a healthy encounter can very quickly turn to lust for a sex addict, like in a second. Now, I think this is a little bit further than I wanted to go on this, but I just want to say there is hope.

We can stop. Not feeding the hunger doesn't kill me. I'm not going to die if I take a break from my sexual relationship, my actual sexual relationship with my spouse. But I can still focus on intimacy. Intimacy isn't just sex. Intimacy is so much more than that. So that's my invitation and my final closing out words. Give that a thought to everybody.

Tara McCausland: Yeah. And Anna Lembke would agree with you in what you just said. She said, as the brain, as the addicted brain is healing, there has to be a period of abstinence from all forms of sex. And so science will affirm those words. Yeah, gratefully. But thank you so much for being here with us. We hope you found this helpful. And if you have questions, please send them our way. You can go to salifeline.org. Fill out the contact form, and we will do our best to get to your question.

But thanks again for being here. We'll catch you next time.

Narrator: Thanks for joining us. We invite you to subscribe to this podcast so that you don't miss new episodes. And while you're at it, will you please leave us a 5-star rating and review to help us spread the good news that healing from sexual addiction and betrayal trauma is possible? We invite individuals who are struggling to join our virtual or in-person trauma-sensitive 12-step meetings. Meeting times and locations can be found at sal12step.org. You can find quality education at salifeline.org, and we hope that you will follow us on Instagram and Facebook.

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