Q&A – What are the differences between boundaries and bottom lines and how do you apply them in relationships?

Narrator: This is Pathway to Recovery, an SA Lifeline Foundation podcast featuring hosts Tara McCausland, who is the SA Lifeline Executive Director, and Justin B., a sex addict living in long-term recovery. We have conversations with experts and individuals who understand the pathway to healing from sexual addiction and betrayal trauma because we believe that recovering individuals leads to the healing of families. Welcome to the Pathway to Recovery Podcast.

Tara McCausland: I'm your host, Tara McCausland, and I have 2 very special guests with me today to go over this Q&A. Rill and Stephen are the, the co-founders of SA Lifeline, and they know a thing or two about setting boundaries and bottom lines and making these work for them in their relationship. and in their recovery. So first, welcome, Mom and Dad.

Rill: We're glad to be here.

Stephen: We are glad to be here.

Tara McCausland: Sometimes it feels unprofessional, but these are my parents. So the first question, because we, we just heard from Dr. Sherri Koeffer about boundaries, what a boundary is, when to set a boundary. But I'm, I'm curious from your perspective, because we, we talk about boundaries and bottom lines, and they're, they're different. So could you tell us what are the differences between boundaries and bottom lines for an addicted person or someone suffering from betrayal trauma?

Rill: Well, I think we need to start with bottom lines because I think those are really— Stephen has set forth his bottom lines for many years. So do you want to share what those are?

Stephen: Yes, I've set a number of bottom lines for safety, things that I choose not to do because they are dangerous for me. And one of the most significant bottom lines I have is I will not travel by myself, because traveling by myself for many years was a very serious part of my opportunity to act out. And so that acting out was a betrayal, of course. And so I no longer travel by myself. Ever, and I haven't for 18 years, over 18 years.

Another bottom line for safety would be, for me, is I don't watch television by myself. I don't go to movies by myself. I don't take my phone into the bathroom. I never go onto YouTube if I'm not with someone else. I don't do mindless searches on the internet. And so those types of bottom lines are for my safety. And I have numbers of those that I've established over the years that I know help keep me safe.

So those are some examples.

Tara McCausland: So if you're defining what a bottom line is, it's parameters that you set for yourself. If you're, for instance, dealing with an addiction that will protect you from getting into acting out behaviors, is that correct?

Stephen: Bottom lines are for safety. Yes.

Rill: And that he sets for himself.

Stephen: That's a really critical point that I set for myself. If someone else set those bottom lines for me, I'm likely going to feel like I'm being controlled, and that will lead to resentment. So it's really critical for me to set those myself. And we oftentimes have opportunities to speak with young people, and oftentimes we'll have a young person, let's say a young, a young man, that's in his mid-teens. Parents are concerned about him because they, they have caught him using porn and they've caught him in various forms of acting out.

And so they're trying to help him create safety for himself. And so they'll set his bottom lines. The bottom line is you don't have a phone. The bottom line is you don't get to— you don't get screen time. We don't want you on the computer. Yeah. Unless someone's with you. I mean, the challenge is, is the parents begin setting those bottom lines and there's resentment and pushback. So the person is— each person is responsible for setting their own bottom lines.

And then they, they really don't have an excuse to resent someone else because they've established them. They, they still could. They, they still may feel they were pressured, but a person has to set their own bottom.

Rill: There is an example to follow up with that bottom line principle and action that if a boundary is, if this happens, then this happens, there is a course of action. For instance, this young man, hypothetically, this young man who uses his phone to act out, and then he recognizes he's done the wrong thing, he tells his parents, And he sets his own bottom line that I will not do that with my phone. But he did. So I would suggest, and parents can suggest, that that young man set his own boundary.

If this happens, then this is what must happen. And he can choose the worst cleaning job that he hates the most in the house. And while, while he's doing that, His brain is saying, because you did this, this is what you must do. And I like that because if he sets that himself and his brain says, okay, I'm doing this because of this, there's much more of a chance that without resentment he goes, I set that myself and I'm going to follow through.

There's such a greater chance that this is going to work for this young man and with his parents. Even though there is such a tendency to want to control, to manipulate, to with a heavy fist come down and say, based on fear, like you can't do this anymore. But I love this. Let's hear what your bottom lines are based on what your need for safety is. And that this will require some humility, as you mentioned, and, and those things that take you into acting out and in a good moment.

Let's sit down and talk about these things and then have the if-then. That's an example for a young person. But in a relationship, it can be, especially with a lot of trauma.

Stephen: It gets more complicated in a relationship, a lot more complicated. So let's say my bottom line is that I won't travel by myself, and I haven't done that. But let's, let's say that I had set the bottom line, I will not travel by myself. And then I come back to my wife and I say, you know, this has been my bottom line. However, I have this very critical business trip that I have to take. I don't— it's not going to be possible for me to not take this trip.

And I know that you have something scheduled that you can't come with me. And so that's my boundary is if, then. So if The if is, if you travel, then, and you choose to do that by yourself, then this would be the consequence of breaking that bottom line. And so the consequence could potentially be extraordinarily severe. It's like if you go back to this traveling by yourself, it jeopardizes trust in our relationship. So the boundary is, If you choose to do that, then it jeopardizes our trust and potentially our relationship.

That sounds pretty harsh, but true. And so that bottom line being, I won't travel by myself. What's the solution? Well, you know, my— this is again a hypothetical. My 18-year-old son would love to go where I'm going on this business trip to Orlando. I will take him with me. It can be a solution. So I haven't broken my bottom line. And the boundary of if-then doesn't even come into play because I haven't broken the bottom line.

But we get into situations where it appears that there is no answer. There's always got to be an answer. But am I humble enough to actually do that? And then one that is more real in my case, if my bottom line is I will not get angry. Wow. How difficult is that to keep? I sadly cannot keep that bottom line continuously. I haven't been able to. So if the boundary is, if I get angry, then this is what will happen.

If I'm really true to myself, the bottom line is I won't get angry. The boundary is, yes, you got angry. Now what then are you going to do? And that would be the closer to the heat of the action. Heat of the action would be I'm I can feel myself getting angry. I'll do a step ten on it right now, which is when I'm wrong promptly admit it, and then I will do something about it, and that would be go through the surrender process.

So the then is I will say a prayer. I will write down my feelings, and I'll talk to my sponsor and and explain to him that I have broken a bottom line by getting angry, and that I take responsibility for it. Then I can. work to make amends, which would be Step 9. Well—

Rill: But then it gives me the opportunity to choose what my then is for the broken bottom line. And so because I can use the circles models and they're such a good visual for me, when I feel unsafe, like there's some resentment, some anger, something going on, I just look at those and say, What do I— what am I feeling here? And I can even circle it in the circles models and say, I'm feeling like there's anger, there's resentment coming at me.

I'm not feeling safe with that. And I need to speak it. I can speak it, I can speak it directly and without being hopefully too emotional. But that takes practice. And then say, when I'm feeling that this bottom line has been broken, Then my boundary says, for safety and for a level of peace and serenity and choice that I knew— know I need to have, is that I will say, I'm not feeling safe, but I have a choice that I can sleep separately.

And we do when that happens. If that hap— well, when that happens. And so I have a choice, or I can detach. and take a walk and say, you know, I'm— and during that detaching is my perfect time to do the pause, breathe, active self-care, surrender to God and another woman working recovery the things I cannot change, which is my husband, and then recognize I'm holding a boundary which actually feels empowering to me. There's a good quote that a friend in recovery sent to me.

Your boundary need not be an angry electric fence that shocks those who touch it. It can be a consistent light around you that announces, I will be treated sacredly. And so using my circles models to see what I'm feeling from him, he may not even accept that. It doesn't matter. Then I go to my circles model and go, whoa, I've got my, my husband in my center. That's not God at my center. Yeah. So I'm going to use my tools.

And one of my tools is set healthy boundaries based on God at my center.

Tara McCausland: I appreciate you defining what a bottom line is, Stephen, because I think sometimes we, we get confused with what a bottom line is versus a boundary. You were both talking about setting bottom lines and boundaries around behaviors that oftentimes people don't connect with. addict behavior. And that was one thing that Dr. Kieffer suggested, you know, there, there are obvious things that, that we certainly should set boundaries and bottom lines around. But you referred to those circles models.

If you don't know what we're talking about, listeners, if you go to salifeline.org, you can find the circles models in a couple of places there. If you go to who we are and find the recovery puzzle, You should find the circles models there, but there are behaviors within those circles models. In fact, can you rattle them off really fast?

Stephen: You know, one of the most difficult challenges an addict has is lying. So lying is in that white section of the circles model. Anger is in the white section. Resentment is in the white section. Fear is in the white section. If we look at all of these negative emotions that we experience as just part of our lives, that those are what really are in the middle or in the white portion, as we describe this, of the circles model, that essentially say that my emotions have taken me out of balance.

Also in that is we have an area that's just one word, act out. Addicts act out as well. And then after acting out, most generally, the feeling is shame. So if you look at these really serious emotions that we feel when we feel negatively about ourselves, it might be anger, fear, resentment, shame, protecting ourselves by lying.

Rill: How about victim?

Stephen: Victim is a really big one, and I appreciate you bringing that to my attention because Victim is oftentimes the way you look at a person. The way a person demonstrates being a victim is, I'll take responsibility for this. If I go to feeling like a victim, I want to withdraw. And so I'll speak less, I'll become silent. I might go over to a place in the house where I can just be by myself and pout. That's really sad to admit.

Rill: But victim has to have a persecutor. So you feel like you've got somebody persecuting you.

Stephen: I'm feeling like somebody's persecuting me when in fact I'm really persecuting myself because I hadn't really surrendered my— what I'm feeling victim about, feeling judged about. Hey, all of these things are like really everyday circumstances that especially couples go through. We find them also in business dealings, relationships that we have. That literally we're close with people, we're interacting with them. And so one of the other descriptive models is the model that shows a marriage relationship. And in that model, there's the drama triangle.

We all use the word persecutor. So the drama triangle is where 2 people take one of 3 different positions on that triangle: persecutor, victim, Or rescue. And then once, once we become involved in that dance, then we're really not progressing forward. We're just kind of trying to protect our territory or trying to do something for somebody else that they should do for themselves. You bring up the circles models, and certainly I hope people will find them on the website.

They're a great description to help really identify what we look like for an addict, what an addict looks like when they're really in a bad place. And then there's a circles model for an addict that represents living in recovery as well. And the recovery model has God in the center and all of the positive attributes— humble, honest, accountable— that really represents recovery. Whereas on the other model, which represents what addiction and living in addiction looks like, has a very selfish attitude.

And that's where the center is focused on self. A person who's really, really committed, recognizing that we have these frailties of mortality, that we really are easily beset by these temptations, especially sexual. It takes, it takes a lot of fortitude to actually maintain and keep that boundary bottom line concept in place.

Tara McCausland: Yes. And I think that really is the power behind the commitment to the boundaries and bottom lines that it becomes easier to stay committed as you work that muscle of following through. Early on in your trauma or, or in your addiction, it's going to be hard to follow through with these boundaries and bottom lines. But as you continue to practice them, and it is a skill that you develop over time, it will become easier to stay committed.

And, and that's where the healing will come. That's where the empowerment will come. That's where a relationship of trust will be rebuilt. So I appreciate all that you shared today, Mom and Dad. They're actually on their way to New Zealand in a month, so I wanted to catch them before they, they left. Um, but really briefly, could you tell us before we finish up here, what, what has it meant to you in your relationship to really be committed to boundaries and bottom lines?

What has it done for you? As individuals and in your marriage relationship?

Rill: I'll just say that, you know, when you say that you feel empowered, sometimes people take that the wrong way. But I say this so often to women, you always have choice. Now, sometimes women don't have a choice or they feel like they don't. For years, I thought I didn't have choice. I always have choice. What does that look like? Well, I often can't come up with that until I've worked some recovery until I've surrendered it, until I've put God back in my center and not someone else.

And so I literally have to look at my circle that says, what are my tools? Just follow the tools. And sometimes I, I lose that perspective. And in the past, I've lost it really easily. Like, I don't have choice here. I am being backed into a corner and somebody's abusing me. I just never want that anymore. I think knowing I have choice, but always striving to have God at my center to help me make the right choice, because there are always going to be consequences, good and some not so good.

And so I, I have to slow it down and use the pause to say, what is that? And, and as I, as I use that process to set a healthy boundary, Not one based on manipulation, control, which is all about fear. If I am built— if I think I'm setting boundaries on fear, I'm going to set them wrong. And the other person will often resent and come back at me with like, this is all about you.

And then I will— I will not trust myself. This is not about trusting myself as it is about trusting God. If I use the process and slow it down, detach when I need to, sleep separate when I need to, take some time away, it's not a bad thing. That is not one foot in the divorce door or anything like that. It is simply slowing this down, getting some time to get myself clear, and then I will know.

And I've heard from so many women, they— when I'd say, well, could you do this? And they're like, oh, I have never thought about that. Oh, I could. Because our brain starts just saying we're in this box. We're not in a box. Healthy boundaries absolutely opens up a safe world for us. But we must have healthy boundaries for all relationships to be safe.

Stephen: Well, I'll just add one part to that in relationship to bottom lines. The bottom line of traveling is so critical for me and my relationship and my marriage. That if I were unwilling to hold that bottom line, I'm fearful for our marriage being successful. It's that critical. So certain things are life and death, frankly. Bottom line of traveling for me is it relates directly to the success of keeping our marriage intact. Some of them are less like a bottom line of I won't get angry.

I sadly still on occasion take something the wrong way or choose to get angry for some reason that at the moment I think is justified, and after a little while I figure out that it isn't. So there's a difference between the value and the impact of certain bottom lines. Every one of them is important. There's always a way to resolve an issue that we recognize has danger associated with it so that we can keep ourselves safe.

And so bottom lines and boundaries are really for that purpose, we're willing, honest, humble about it, living in recovery is absolutely possible.

Rill: I think for both of us, we can say that this style, this way of living with bottom lines and boundaries and recovery has helped us to develop a much closer relationship. After 51 years of marriage, our marriage is so much healthier and more connected In absolutely every way, I think that's the hope that we strive to give to everyone. This is not an easy fix. Learning to hold boundaries and bottom lines is a process that requires a lot of effort and practice, but it is so worth it.

We know the blessings and the gifts of this. We experience them, and so does our family, right? Yeah. Yep. Yep.

Tara McCausland: Thank you so much for. imparting some wisdom today. And thanks to our listeners for being here.

Rill: Experience strengthens. We'll go for the experience for sure.

Tara McCausland: And wisdom. And wisdom. Okay. Thank you.

Stephen: Thank you, Tara.

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