Healthy Boundaries for Protection and Peace w/ Karin C. and Jan S.

Narrator: This is Pathway to Recovery, an SA Lifeline Foundation podcast featuring hosts Tara McCausland, who is the SA Lifeline Executive Director, and Justin B., a sex addict living in long-term recovery. We have conversations with experts and individuals who understand the pathway to healing from sexual addiction and betrayal trauma because we believe that recovering individuals leads to the healing of families. Welcome to the Pathway to Recovery Podcast.

Justin B.: I'm Justin B. I am a son of an all-powerful and all-loving God and a recovering sex addict living in long-term recovery one day at a time. Grateful to be one of the hosts of this podcast along with Tara McCausland, who is the other host who often does other episodes from the Pathway to Recovery Podcast and also does Q&As with me from time to time. And I'm grateful to be here today with Karen and with Jan.

And I'm— this is going to be a really cool conversation once we get to it. We're going to be talking about boundaries, healthy boundaries and bottom lines and dealing with all of those different things from different perspectives and different experiences. But before we get into that conversation, I just want to do a couple of quick business items announcements. We've got a couple of really cool things coming up here in SAL over the next months. And I want to announce each of those.

First of all, coming up here in just about a week, from the time that this is posted is the very first Eversal Men's Workshop. It will be on Saturday, February 24th, starting at 10 AM going until noon Mountain Time on Zoom. It will be free of charge, but you do have to register and you can register at sal12step.org. I'll give you a little about what's going on in that workshop. We'll have 2 presenters over that 2-hour period of time.

One of them will be Dorothy Marion, who is a therapist who specializes in what she's going to be speaking on. Her topic is going to be entitled, What Can I Say? Communication After Betrayal. And she'll be doing basically a Communications 101 as to how to communicate with, with those that we love after betrayal has happened and how to rebuild that communication. Because, man, that's a tough thing to do that I'm still working on 10 years into the rooms and need a lot of help with it.

So I'm grateful for that. The next presenter will actually be, well, me, for better or for worse. My topic will be Sponsorship Methods and Insights. And during these workshops, we'll be doing some role-play situations. We'll be doing some Q&A sessions. We'll have some like PDF handouts and everything like that. So anyways, if you're a man out there struggling with sexual addiction or just wanting to learn more about communication and sponsorship methods and insights, come join with us.

Register at sal12step.org. And then the The next announcement, the next item that I want to bring up is the Women's Workshop that is coming up on April 19th and 20th in Mapleton, Utah. It is an in-person workshop and it's over a couple of days. And what a really cool thing that is. I'm going to read just a little bit about what this will be. The SA Lifeline Women's Workshop aims to be an affordable and safe event for women seeking healing from the effects of sexual betrayal.

and the associated trauma. The workshop will feature therapist presentations and group discussions, yoga and breathwork sessions, and opportunities to heal through nature and artistic expression. So anyways, there's a cost involved here as it is in person, a cost of $199. If you want more details on that, please go to sal12step.org and register there. You can also go to salifeline.org and find that information on the women's workshop there. If you're like, hey, that's too much, reach out.

There may be some scholarship funds available as the men's side has been donating lots of funds for that over the last little while. That was a lot of announcements. Let's get into what we're here for. I'm really grateful today to have Karen and Jan with me. Karen, why don't you take just a couple of minutes, introduce yourself, share what brought you into the rooms of recovery, and maybe just a little bit of what experience, strength, and hope you find in the rooms.

Karin C.: Okay, um, I've been in the rooms of recovery for, I want to say, about 6 years now. And what brought me in was a multitude of things— my rock bottom and a good friend who was brave and courageous with her own story and already in the rooms of recovery, um, who just shared her story, and I was able to say, hey, oh my gosh, I shared your story a little bit. And, and she just said, you've got to come with me.

And she encouraged me lovingly and let me just come when I was ready with my situation. But kind of my rock bottom hit when, when my life was completely unmanageable. My husband had, um, recently decided to leave my faith, and there was just a lot of, of stuff going on that, you know, and I had wanted to get some help, and he just didn't see things the way I did, in the way we should be managing and getting help.

And I was just completely overwhelmed. And so that was kind of like, I have no more energy. And I kind of felt like I needed to separate kind of what I saw as 2 different crises at the time. And, and really the recovery that I found at SAL, the 12-step program— and this, that's the first time I had done any of this, um— it really has helped in every aspect of my life, right? It healed all sorts of things, and I was able to tie things together, um, how everything fit together.

And, and all the chaos in my life was really kind of all All together. It was all tied together. And I, I remember walking into recovery the first time and feeling seen and heard and looking around at all the other women and thinking, they're at peace somehow, and this is what I want. I couldn't quite see or understand how they got there, but I knew I wanted to, to keep, to keep going and to try and figure out.

how they got what they got, those who had that experience, strength, and hope at the time when I first joined. And I found hope is what I found in the Rooms of Recovery. Um, my story kind of entails that, um, my husband did in fact choose. Um, there was, there was a lot of, a lot of confusion and a lot of just so— there was gaslighting and some other things going on that just made it really difficult.

And I dearly loved my husband, and I desperately wanted to make my marriage work. Um, um, there was a lot going on that ended up taking us down different roads, and I worked really hard to try and save my marriage. And in the end, I wanted recovery, and I wanted peace and thriving in my life. And the road he was determined to walk was not one that we could no longer walk the paths we wanted to walk in our life together.

And I ended up choosing divorce. And so I think I'm bringing that perspective to our boundary discussion today.

Justin B.: Thank you so much, Karen, for introducing yourself on that and starting that perspective off. I've got some questions for you based on this, but we're going to go over to Jan for a minute and have Jan share a little bit of her experience, strength, and hope, what brought her into the rooms and what she finds of value in the Rooms of Recovery and SAL. Okay.

Jan S.: Thank you. My story is a long one. It started actually in 2002. And what brought me into the rooms of recovery was several years later, I had hit rock bottom. I really didn't understand what I was dealing with, what was going on. This was back in the day when Sexual addiction wasn't even talked about. There wasn't anything that I knew of. I didn't even understand it. And I think that I started actually, we were living in San Antonio at the time and I started in, um, Al-Anon.

And that was really my first introduction to the 12 steps. And working those 12 steps has been miraculous in my life. I am different. My children say I am different. Even my husband says I have changed. And through the hard work of being in the rooms of recovery, it has definitely improved my life in ways that I never could have imagined. Today, attending SAL, I find the same peace and comfort and genuine love and a sponsor who has taken me over the last 7 years through some very, very tumultuous times.

I am grateful to the SAL program. I would not be where I am today without those 12 steps, without the ability to be able to change and to know that there's a vehicle out there that can help you. I'm so grateful for this opportunity and to talk about boundaries. I didn't even know what a boundary was. So it'll be an interesting discussion. Thank you.

Justin B.: Thank you, Jen. And we're going to jump into boundaries and bottom lines here in just a minute. But I want to ask a couple questions based on what you both have shared. And you guys just jump in as you feel prompted to, as you feel, hey, that's something that I want to comment on and just jump in with that. You each mentioned that, and I'm going to quote, I had hit rock bottom. So often, I think at least my percept— my perspective and my perception of it is, is that many of those who are betrayed come into the rooms thinking, my loved one has hit rock bottom, and I need to figure out how to fix that person.

I need to figure out how to fix him, to fix her. And that's why I'm coming into these rooms is to fix him or her. Tell me why that's not your current perspective, or if that maybe was your perspective when you first went in and how that's shifted. Hmm.

Karin C.: I think, I think I did want my husband to change when I first came to the rooms of recovery. Um, I did hope that he would. I hit my rock bottom when I realized that he had changed his perspective that this was a problem. This, this had probably been happening for many years. We had touched on it, talked about it, and then I lived in denial and thought that everything was gonna be okay. And I really had no idea, you know, what I was really dealing with, like Jan said.

And, and I was just managing, but I was exhausted. I have kids and I did feel like I was doing a lot of things alone and having to, you know, I, I did over-function a lot and, and there was a lot of resentment festering. And yet again, every time I tried to talk and heal or get some healing with him and make some progress and find some safety. That's what I was feeling. I was not feeling safe.

Um, I just couldn't get it. And that was my go-to, is to move forward and try and fix us, or to fix him, or help him. If I could just find the next book, or find, find, you know, what we could be doing differently. But I had been long entrenched in Not really counting on him to do what we needed to do as a couple, like to be thriving as a couple. Whether that was fair to him or not, in a lot of ways it was probably not fair to him to give him the opportunity to to really grow into something that I hope that he will grow into one day.

But I just wanted us to be fixed. But I I was in that. I can figure it out. I can work harder. I can figure it out mode, but I was exhausted. And when he left my faith, it was very much that was our main focus, that we no longer had shared value systems. And when I discovered after one conversation, when I tried to bring up pornography use again, and there was a specific conversation that I realized that he no longer cared to fix it.

Mm-hmm. that his thoughts had changed on everything and that he didn't believe that it was damaging or a problem and that that was all in my head. And, and he felt relief. And so, um, it was going to be my problem now. And I felt alone once again in trying to manage our lives. And so maybe I didn't have a lot of Hope that, that it was like— I was hoping that I could just give him and teach him the information we needed and that he would eventually see the light and have the epiphany and want to join me in the space and on the path that I wanted us to go on.

But I, I was determined to just do something. I was just trying to do something originally, if I'm being honest. I was just looking for the next thing to do and the next step to take because that's how I'd solved my problems in the past is just work harder. But it wasn't totally to change him. I hoped he would change, but I guess I don't know that I actually fully even really believed that it would, right?

Like I did take on way too much responsibility naturally and had for years. So.

Justin B.: Karen, thank you. I think that that Jumps into some things that I'll be asking about here with boundaries and bottom lines. Here, Jan, do you have any thoughts on your experience in, you know, hey, I'm coming in to fix my husband rather than I'm coming in to fix myself? Or was that your experience?

Jan S.: Oh yeah, definitely. Are you kidding? Unequivocally, yes. And everything I read, I talked to him about everything I did, the 12 steps, how great they were. And actually, quite honestly, he didn't wanna hear any of it. He was not in a place, and he has related to me in later years that no matter what I did or said, it didn't register. He didn't care. It made him go further away than brought him closer to recovery. But what's so wonderful about recovery is I started, you know, I'm throwing dishes.

I'm very vocal. I'm a New Yorker and I yell. I'm throwing dishes at the refrigerator full of spaghetti. I didn't understand what was going on, but I knew there was something going on. And what's so nice is that I don't do that anymore. I can now pull away and do what I need to in my recovery for me. And it's like the picture that Rilke shows, Gently Up the Stream. He's in his boat, I'm in mine.

And it has been a most marvelous thing to actually realize that I can take care of me. Yeah. I know what I need now, separate and aside from what my husband needs. And I love that feeling.

Justin B.: Wow, it sounds miraculous. And I'm grateful that you shared that. And my story with my wife was very similar. She came into the Rooms of Recovery nearly 8 years before I did, seeking support from my behaviors, from my addictions, from my character defects that are many. And she went into initially, and I'm speaking for her, but she's shared this with me many times because she wanted to put me in her pocket and protect me and make things right for me.

And she very quickly learned for herself that, hey, I need to just deal with the things that I have. Let's jump in and talk a little bit about boundaries and bottom lines. I'm gonna read, this is from the SA Lifeline website on boundaries and bottom lines, and it can also be found in the SAL book, which I'm sure we may reference here a couple times, but I'm gonna read this paragraph and then get into some conversation about boundaries.

Healthy boundaries and bottom lines become a concrete way of defining who we are and what we need in order to live with integrity. They also help clarify what we are and are not responsible for. This is something that often gets confused in relationships affected by sexual addiction and betrayal trauma. Bottom lines are behaviors that we do not accept from ourselves, and for betrayed spouses, they can also be behaviors that we do not accept from others. Boundaries are actions that we will take in response to behaviors and attitudes.

Setting bottom lines and holding healthy boundaries helps us create defined, safe spaces where we can respond to our challenges with serenity and dignity. So as I read that paragraph, is there something in there that really jumps out at either one of you as being maybe key to your own understanding and implementation of boundaries and bottom lines? I—

Karin C.: everything about that, just like Jan had said, I didn't understand boundaries or even— I never heard that word, understood that concept in a relationship at all until I came to SAL and got into therapy. And, and it has changed my life, understanding that I am not responsible for things that are actually not my responsibility and I have no control. over. And boundaries are so difficult and were so difficult for me and still are a challenge for even now.

Like, when they ask me to do this, I'm like, are you sure you want me? Because I— this is just a lifelong struggle. I probably always struggled with boundaries, and, um, or so I thought. And the fact is, is I have learned that I'm actually better at them than I thought because Certainly I've gotten better, but I, I had more than I thought all along. But I've gotten better because I do understand that concept now, that they are about me and, and that I get to protect my peace, my safety, and my thriving.

And that concept that I was the only one responsible for that, it doesn't fall on my husband or anybody else, really. It is my job. It's empowering to me, and it has been life-changing to learn about boundaries to me.

Justin B.: Thank you for sharing that. Jan, any thoughts on, on that reading and what that means to you?

Jan S.: Yeah, I love that. Like I said, I didn't even know what a boundary was. I have a dear friend who we are really close, and she is the most boundaried person I know. And I only realized that now. I didn't realize it then. The ability to say no, the ability to say, I have 45 minutes. Now, what can we do in 45 minutes? I have learned so much from her with dealing with boundaries. And today I would consider myself pretty good at boundaries.

Now, I recently had an incident with my husband and I was able to immediately set boundaries that kept me safe, that made me feel good. And I was able to move through that in a much more mature, calm, and I guess serenity, having peace and serenity through a crisis. And I'm so grateful for those boundaries and the ability to be able to understand what a boundary is, And how I'm going to use that boundary. No, I love the if.

If this happens, then I will do. So I love that.

Justin B.: So for me personally, I'll speak for myself, that if-then, if this happens, I will do that. Man, I have a hard time following through on the then. Sometimes I'm like, just this time we'll let it slide. How do you avoid doing that? Or why is that important to really stick to the then? Karen, what are your thoughts on that?

Karin C.: Oh, that is so challenging. I, I've been practicing that a lot with my children as I'm trying with our divorce. And although they can't articulate it very well, you know, I, I know that they have betrayal trauma that they will be dealing with for years to come, right? And I've been trying to rebuild trust with them and, and it can be, I've noticed, particularly challenging in my situation. Yeah. When I feel guilty, right? Like that this wasn't my choice, but I know this is the right thing for our family.

But there's so much that they're not ready to carry yet. And so they don't even fully understand in large measure what has led us here. And, and the if-then, like, it is so challenging to be in general with kids, right? But that's kind of where my focus has been lately and with my ex-spouse. To want to be doing the right thing and want to be in this rebuilding trust phase. And, and their guilt can get in the way sometimes.

And I remember when I was trying to work things with my spouse, you're just desperate sometimes for them to see you and hear you and, or to be giving a little effort. And when they do, and you had set a boundary, I— it's a struggle to like not want to say. Yeah. Okay, I see your effort. Um, okay, I won't, I won't hold you to it this time, but if it happens again, then I'm really gonna go do, do what I said I was gonna do, right?

But I, I see that you're, you're aware right now, you're, you're making progress. I would hold on to every little bit of progress. And it would be tempting, and with my children, like, just to want to recognize. Yeah. a sorry or recognize. I am tempted to show compassion in a large majority of situations, and it's always a struggle for me to do that. But when I do, it always benefits me and the person I'm holding the boundary with.

Justin B.: Thanks for sharing that, Karen. Jan, can you give an example of a difficult-to-hold boundary, difficult-to-maintain if-then that you've experienced, and maybe share how that works and how that's received by a loved one that maybe you're holding a boundary with? Right.

Jan S.: Well, if it's my husband, if you act out, then I want you to tell me within a reasonable amount of time, 12 hours, 24 hours. That to me was one of the most difficult ones to hold. Um, and, and it's a, it becomes a trust issue. Are you telling me the truth? And I think the thing with that was that in setting that boundary, if you act out again, then I will sleep in the guest room. Because with him, I can't say, will you sleep in the guest room?

Because we had done that. He wasn't budging. He's in our bed. And I'm the one in the guest room and had spent several weeks in the guest room. So as far as holding those boundaries, they are extremely difficult. But in the end, the outcome for me, and this is for my own recovery, was nothing short of a miracle. We have adult children Who we're now setting boundaries with. And sometimes they do not get it. They don't understand, and they're adults.

So the ability to heal our family by holding to those boundaries, difficult though it may be, has been some of our most rewarding moments. See that growth in our family. And as we hold those lines with boundaries, Miraculous things have happened. And I'm not saying it's perfect all the time. It is not by any stretch of the imagination. But we try. We do try.

Justin B.: Thank you for sharing that, both Karen and Jan. I'm going to come— yeah, go ahead, Karen.

Karin C.: Well, I was just going to pop in. I'm thinking when I was first in SAL, I'd been sitting there for several meetings and hearing boundaries. And I just kept going to all or nothing, all or nothing. Like, I couldn't understand Like the concept that I could have a boundary that wasn't divorce, which terrified me at the time. Like it was just all or nothing thinking. And I just remember being so grateful for someone, as, as Jan just shared her example of an if-then, like I, someone shared one in a meeting that just was like, if this happens, I'm going to take space.

Mm-hmm. I'm going to leave the house and go on a walk for 4 hours. I was just blown away at that time. And I just so desperately needed an example of something that wasn't all or nothing or something that I could actually digest at that time because I was so terrified to set any boundaries and I didn't understand them. So I just, I want to put out there that if-then statements can be a whole range of things.

They can be, I'm going to take A step, you know, I'm gonna go for a walk and then I'll come back. Or it could be a lot bigger or somewhere in between. And I'm just, I had to have examples of that to even begin to understand what a boundary could look like.

Jan S.: To me, I think boundaries are fluid. My boundaries, you know, I have bottom lines, you know, this is rock bottom. This is, I, a bottom line is a bottom line. for me. But with my boundaries, I've noticed that over the years, they are in fact fluid, that boundaries can change. And that doesn't hurt me in any way. It actually helps me in my growth. Yeah.

Justin B.: Yeah, beautiful. And thank you for that. I wanna push back just a little bit because, well, I'm an addict. I'm living in recovery, but I'm an addict. And the addict brain goes, When a boundary is set, that is my loved one telling me she doesn't love me. She hates me. She wants me out of her presence. She wants to punish me for something that I think is minor or something that I think is, oh, come on, show a little compassion.

So talk to me a little bit about why— maybe not why I'm wrong, but talk to me as if, hey, I'm teaching you about boundaries and how this will benefit you. From the perspective of an addict here.

Jan S.: But can I answer that? I don't think there's a right or wrong. I cannot change the way my husband is feeling. And because of that, I'm not going to change the way I boundary myself because I think I'm going to hurt him.

Karin C.: Justin, can you maybe repeat Your question again? I loved what you said. I'm trying to just like gather my thoughts here. Okay. Yeah.

Justin B.: So I'm coming at it from an addict's point of view. You just set a boundary that I perceive was against me. Now, Jan just said, I boundary myself. But the addict says, no, you're setting a big barrier between me and you and you're cutting me out. Teach me a little bit about how that boundary that you're setting up hopefully to protect you, to boundary yourself, isn't necessarily there to damage Um, okay.

Karin C.: I, I've dealt with this so much, and I think that's why I'm kind of just like, my brain is kind of flooded and maybe even a little triggered because my husband did push my boundaries constantly and very much was that, could not see that any boundary I set was, was actually for me. Like, no matter how many words I used to explain it, he just couldn't see it. Yeah. Explain it, or even bringing up in therapy and having them try and explain, you know, like it was just very much, um, difficult for him to see that.

And I couldn't understand why it was so difficult. So you're giving voice to, to his thoughts for me. But it was essential for me to be like, even right now, like I'm feeling like my heart rate is elevating. And even though I'm Fully aware of what's going on and that I'm in a safe situation. And, um, I can't live like this all the time. And I don't think he ever understood the state, like the physiological state that my body was constantly in.

And if I'm like that, I, I can't ever feel safe. And if I can't feel safe, then we can't have a trusting, healthy marriage that moves forward and thrives. Yeah. So my boundary, like, I have to be able to feel safe. And if I can't feel safe, it won't do him any good. This is for his benefit that I feel safe.

Justin B.: Oh, that's powerful what you just shared there, Karen. Um, and you mentioned, hey, I feel even a little triggered is what you said. You know, my heart rate's elevating. You know, I, and I know that you are, you aren't saying, hey, Justin, you're getting on my nerves. I want to get out of here. But that's the same feeling that I as an addict feel when, when I feel like, hey, a boundary set up to punish me.

And I know in recovery, as I'm working my recovery, I know that's not the case, but it's still the immediate response when that happens. I'm like, the heart rate goes up, my— I start to react rather than stimulus, pause, respond. I go stimulus, react, you know, and cause more harm than good. So This, this is good for me too. I really appreciate you both sharing these things. Any other thoughts on that before I go to a next question?

Karin C.: I'm not sure that this is quite right either, but I'm feeling like it's kind of about control. Like, I think my husband always perceived that I was trying to control him by not letting him do whatever he wanted when it infringed on my life. And he couldn't see the destruction. Like, he literally couldn't see it. And I felt completely invisible and unloved. And I could not understand. So there was so much disconnect that happened when I would try and set a boundary.

And it really was to protect my peace, my heart rate, my body. I can give an example. There was a time when he was going out to certain partying situations that he was now engaged in that I did not. I was home with my kids and I didn't want to engage in these new lifestyle choices that he was in. And, and he would stay out quite late and it had happened a few times and I knew I needed a boundary because I did not want to stay up wondering what was happening at that party, wondering if he was going to come home.

Yeah. In one piece. I knew he was drinking and I was hoping he would be responsible in his use of a vehicle, things like that. And luckily nothing ever did happen, but he was concerned about like, I'm going to make it home just fine. I, I'm not going to be irresponsible behind the wheel. And he couldn't understand that that was a problem for me. But it was also me spending the whole night putting my children to bed.

and spending time with them and then laying awake in distress, wondering, like that feeling that my peace was gone all evening waiting for him to come home. And he could only see like certain parts. Like he couldn't see the emotional part for me about like how my body was just— I lost my peace. There was a whole bunch of concerns, but me laying awake at night waiting for him to come home, my peace was completely gone and he couldn't see why that was something I should be boundaried about.

Justin B.: Yeah, and I have a follow-up on that that either you, Karen, or Jan maybe can comment on. You know, my understanding of recovery and living not just in recovery from my addiction, but in life and living a healthy life has shifted away from focus on self to focus on serving God and others, you know, up and out rather than down and in. And I know that when I am focused on self, when I'm in selfish mode, self-centered, self-seeking, self-pity, self— name the self, whatever— I don't think about how my actions, my words, my behaviors, my thoughts are affecting another person.

It's all about me. And when a boundary is set against what I perceive against me. How does this affect me? I don't even think about the other person. And it brings me to a paragraph in the Big Book of Alcoholics Anonymous, which I love the Big Book of Alcoholics Anonymous. And this paragraph, and I'm going to change a couple words to pertain to where we're at. The addict, it says the alcoholic, I'm going to say the addict is like a tornado roaring his way through the lives of others.

Hearts are broken. Sweet relationships are dead. Affections have been uprooted. Selfish and inconsiderate habits have kept the home in turmoil. We feel a person is unthinking when he or she says that sobriety is enough. He is like the farmer who came up out of his cyclone cellar to find his home ruined. To his wife, he remarked, don't see anything the matter here, Ma. Ain't it grand? The wind stopped blowing. You know, when I am in my addiction, I am blind to everything else.

How will boundaries help you, maybe protect you, Jan, and you, Karen, from the tornado that is out of control of the addict? And maybe when you feel that— I'm stepping on some fragile ground here, but I'm just gonna do it. How about when you are the tornado and maybe a boundary is set with you? How do you react in those situations? Talk to me about those things.

Jan S.: I think for me, when I'm the tornado, I'm the one who spins. My husband is very quiet. You could say passive. You know, as he's embraced recovery, he has become better. But I am the tornado. And I, like I said, throwing the dishes at the refrigerator, I was out of control. And I don't think at the time I even understood that someone else could set a boundary to protect them from me. So the best thing for me now is the ability to recognize that.

Yeah. And now I can boundary myself and have a completely different outcome to a situation that could have gone south very quickly and been a negative thing.

Justin B.: Well, I think you took the second half of that question. Karen, do you have a first half of that question? Yeah.

Karin C.: Um, well, like for instance, in the example I gave, what I did in the end was I told him I, I did say I would not, you know, he could make his choices. And I knew I couldn't, I wasn't going to control that. And I wasn't trying to control, even though I had asked him and made requests that he not go or whatever, I, I knew he was going to make his choices. But I told him that I wasn't going to wait up and wait for him anymore.

So if he did, you know, something happened, that I would be turning off my phone and I would not be coming to get him. Until the next morning. If, if for some reason he got in an accident or something happened, I was going to go to bed at midnight and I would not lay awake waiting any longer. And I wanted him to call by that point and by midnight and let me know when he would be home.

And if he didn't, there would be consequences the next day. But all he could see was like, I just need to get home safe, right? And that's all you should care about. And He didn't care about my peace, but I was able to set a boundary around my peace that had nothing to do with controlling him, really. He did make his choices and he did continue to act in that way. And I quit picking up my phone at midnight and I started going to sleep.

And it was amazing the difference in my life. I was protected in some small way, not from any behavior that could have happened, but I was able to get a good night's sleep at midnight. I could sleep the rest of the night and, um, Because I told myself, I, and I told him that I would no longer wait up for him and I would not be, you know, picking up the phone. So in that small case, um, I was able to protect myself through a boundary that was not a huge boundary.

It was just a statement of how I was going to protect my peace. And I needed a good night's sleep and I didn't want to stay up any longer waiting for him. And he could still choose what he was going to do. Like even in that case, I said, and then, and then there were situations where he didn't call me by midnight. And anyway, things happened. And then there were escalating boundaries that I needed more safety because that didn't bring me enough safety, right?

With a smaller boundary. And, and eventually that is what happened. It was one small boundary at a time as I gained strength. Yeah. and courage that I could set boundaries and gained experience that they actually worked and I felt safer, I was given more courage to set bigger and healthier boundaries. And it seemed that the boundaries that I set were the only things that were actually making a difference. And so I gained courage and trust. I gained a testimony, if you will, of the boundaries worked.

The boundary that I eventually needed, we separated 2 years before we actually decided on divorce. Um, and that was such a healthy boundary for me. And then, and then this is the boundary that we have right now. And it's, it keeps us healthy and we are actually in a good space as co-parents.

Jan S.: And I have a question for you, Karen. Yeah. I love what you said when, when you set a boundary and your husband was not coming home at night. I never knew when Andrew was going to come home. Ever. Yeah. Had no idea. And were you truly able to sleep? Like, I was really— wow. Isn't that— that to me is amazing.

Karin C.: Well, I didn't do it alone. I mean, I prayed that I would be able to sleep. Right. Right.

Jan S.: Your higher power.

Karin C.: Yeah. And he helped me and he knew that I needed him to touch in, but I, before midnight, he needed to let me know. And even if he did or didn't, um, You know, like I would be turning it off at midnight. And I don't know if I, I may have been trying to be like, hopefully he'll be responsible and know that I'm not going to be able to pick him up at 2 AM if he gets a DUI or, you know, I was able to sleep.

I told him I'm not waiting up and I'm not going to wait up. And I, I would pray that I'd be able to sleep and I did. I went to sleep. Love that. It was really helpful and I did have more peace. I had just a small measure more, but I had more peace and more energy and I had less worry, right? Because I wouldn't let myself worry anymore, not after midnight. And, and I love that.

And I got a couple hours of— Small measure. Yeah.

Jan S.: And I love that small measure because I'm so grateful for the things, even in the smallest measurement that, that come to me. I love that. Thank you for sharing that.

Justin B.: Oh, that's really cool. And I think that's, that's helped. That's Miraculous is what I think it is. I think that's a miracle and that's really cool.

Jan S.: Karen, what a wonderful thing to watch boundaries a little bit at a time, feeling the confidence that, oh my gosh, this is working. I can go now to another step and another step. And I think I found that in my life too, is setting a boundary, it didn't always work and I had to tweak it and had to relook at it and rethink about it and what is my intent? I think the bottom line for me was an intent.

What was my intent with setting this boundary? What was I trying to protect in myself, for myself? I became my biggest advocate in becoming a boundaried person.

Justin B.: Yeah, great insights and great experiences. Thanks for sharing those, both of you. So one of the benefits, I think, in having this conversation with both of you is we've got a couple of different perspectives that started out very similarly. We've got, we've got a marriage, we've got a spouse, a husband in this case, who is acting out sexually in ways that are harmful to the family, to the relationship. And a tool is sought, recovery is sought by the spouse, by the betrayed, and work is starting to be done.

And it sounds like, Janet, it took a while before your husband decided, hey, okay, I'm a mess, I need help, and I'm finally willing to do this. But for whatever reason, Jan, and I'm not saying this is the right or the wrong reason for either of you, for whatever reason, you felt it was best to stay married. And Karen, for whatever reason, I'm not saying right or wrong either way. In fact, I think both of you made the right choice.

Your choice was, I need to take a different path. Divorce is the solution. Talk to me a little bit about that and why why both of those are the correct answer for your situations. Let's start with you, Karen, and then go to Jan.

Karin C.: Um, my boundary that I am now divorced is, it's actually the same boundary that I had early on, that I needed recovery to be in a marriage. And that was the boundary that I set Like in the bigger, like the bigger boundaries. I wanted recovery work done. I wanted a full disclosure. I wanted to know the truth. And I wanted to feel some peace. I was in fight or flight all the time. And I was exhausted.

I felt fully responsible for holding our lives together and whether that was all fully true or not. And he, he's been a very good provider. I've always been really Um, lucky that way. He's a good man in so many ways, but there were so many things that were not working for me and that I felt were vital to what I saw marriage as and what I needed to be in a marriage and not just a roommate or whatever.

And I wanted a marriage. I determined what it is that I wanted and needed and I needed some recovery and I needed some honesty and some connection, some deep intimacy. And I had been missing those things. And that's kind of the boundary I set. And I needed to reregulate my system and think clearly and not feel like I was doing it all alone. And actually, the separation was something that gave me some of that. Like, it gave me a break every other weekend.

We started doing— just our own schedule like that. And, and it showed that he could be responsible for something, at least every other weekend he could take care of dinner for the kids. And, and, and I, I just had more safety. But the boundary was, I need recovery. I need to know that we're moving towards healing and safety and that you care, that you see me and that you want me to thrive and that you care about my pain.

And then we gave that time and we were supposed to be working on that individually. He started counseling 6 months into our separation, finally. I mean, years he had told me he would never do anything, but he did start counseling with me, doing some counseling with me. And there were a couple moments where it kind of came down to it again, and I, I held that boundary. It was still that boundary. I still need recovery. And 2 different times he like bailed again.

I said, this is what I want. I want recovery, and this is the only way I know how to get it, you know, therapy. some 12-step work, some of these things. And he, he would refuse to believe that the problem that I saw as the problem was actually the problem. And he wanted me to just believe differently and let it all go and deal with some other things and heal the, heal the past in the present.

And he did not want me to dig any of that stuff up. He just wanted to like learn some new marriage skills. And I wouldn't let go of No, we need to dig up this cancer and we need to get rid of it and we need to heal it. So there was some 2 really big moments, fights if you will, where I held that boundary and he was like, we're done. I, I'm not gonna do that. And so I'm like, I guess not.

Even though he'd made a lot of progress, we made a lot of progress, but in the end it was that same boundary that I wanted full disclosure. Yeah. I wanted to heal this underlying cancer. And so it's really the same boundary that's been the boundary all along that I've been trying to hold.

Justin B.: You know, a lot of the men that I work with who experienced divorce due to their addiction, due to the process of going through that, so some of them are working recovery and they're sober and they're going strong, but the marriage still falls apart. It doesn't stay cohesive. In whatever situation I've seen, probably on the majority of the men just say, okay, well, working this recovery didn't work for my marriage, so I'm out. But I've seen several who say, you know what, working this recovery, even if my marriage fell apart, I feel closer to my higher power.

I have a connection with others. I'm growing. I'm feeling better than I ever have in my life. So I continue in that. Karen, what, what has made you decide, you know, I'm going to continue working my recovery even though The reason I came in has changed.

Karin C.: Yeah, I keep coming back, as we say in our group meetings, because it works. I have come to know myself and discover things about myself— strengths, weaknesses, all of those things— um, in a way I never could have any other way, and in a way that I never have before. I have closer relationships, but not just people in group and people that I feel seen and heard with, safe people, which I know how to spot them now.

And I have so many safe people in my life more than ever before. Um, like not just in group, but like in my life in general. I have learned the value of being vulnerable and broken and being okay and allowing other people to be broken and okay and realizing there's a huge opportunity to connect authentically with people. in our humanity. And I love living in this space. And when I get busy, or when I, when I think I'm not constantly needing to work recovery, I, I'm not as happy.

And I'm not as connected. And the number one, right, I am more connected to my higher power than ever before. And I feel supported and loved and feel purpose. and thriving in my life and like prosperous, right? Good things are coming. Even though I've had so many blah things dumped in my lap as well, it has been an opportunity for me to see the goodness in my life and grow into goodness and receive goodness in, in so many ways that I never noticed before.

And It's the way I want to live. I love the way I feel when I'm living in recovery. And I know that it's fragile, and that I can't keep it if I don't work it. And so that's what keeps me coming back.

Justin B.: Love it. And that was spoken so beautifully. Jan, I also want to keep on that question of staying married through that and what that has meant In your life and why you made that choice.

Jan S.: The only thing I can say is I'm an idiot. No, I'm kidding. All the years that the stuff, and I'd say something stronger if I could, if it was appropriate, but the stuff that I've put up with year after year after year after year. Has been— there are no words to describe that feeling. It was hell. It really, really was hell on earth. And for me, the path was different. I did decide to stay and it was my decision.

I had a lovely therapist say, you take your relationship and you put it in this little box. Mm-hmm. It's a beautifully wrapped gift and you stick it up on your closet. That was my marriage relationship, of which there was really nothing in that box if you were to open it. But the wonderful thing about that was that I would be the one to choose to stay or to go. You know, I was not a victim and holding my boundaries with him once I understood what was going on.

And it was It was very archaic at the very, in the very beginning. I really didn't know what I was doing. No. And I, as I watched Andrew and I was sitting in, in a friend's home and he and his wife said, if you want to get well from this, you need to get to Utah. You need that within a 50-mile radius, you'd have access to the best therapy that you could ever imagine for sexual addiction.

And through there, but for the grace of God go I, it happened. We were able to get here to Utah. And I think my husband actually started to realize that living the way he was living was not— it wasn't getting him anywhere. It was digging a deeper and deeper and deeper hole. Talk about living in hell. I talk about my hell Living with sexual addiction, he too was in the depths of despair. And I, I, um, I don't even know how to what what words.

But for me, my choice, I just felt that now was not the time to leave him, and he has embraced a good strong recovery. Are there still issues? Absolutely. We are never free, and I will be doing the twelve steps for the the rest of my life. You know, in attending my meetings, I get so much from them. Like Karen has said, my life is different because of that, because of the women and the people that I associate with.

To go to a meeting and to see the women coming in broken, their lives shattered, their hearts ripped out of their chest and smashed on the floor. And I was one of those women. And to have the opportunity to be able to come to women who understand and can embrace and love me, there's nothing like it on the planet. I have so loved that journey. Well, loved is probably the wrong word. I've respected the journey.

Justin B.: Amen. Amen. I hear you on that. Oh, that's so funny. Love it. Perfect. So we're going to start wrapping up here. Before I get into a couple of closing questions for each of you, is there anything that we have not yet touched on that you're like, we need to hit on this in regards to boundaries or bottom lines?

Jan S.: Don't be afraid. Don't be afraid to set them. Take your life back and begin small, like Karen said, little baby steps, one thing at a time. And all of a sudden, setting a boundary for me is like with my friend, watching her. I've become very boundaried. I don't even think about it anymore. It has become part of how I live.

Karin C.: Yeah, I love boundaries too. And I'm just, I'm thinking of a quote that I picked up from my first therapist that it was life-changing really when I was trying to grasp this. But she said, you know, you need a boundary when you're starting to feel resentful. Like, that is the signal that you're— that you need a boundary somewhere. And it was in all aspects of my life. And, um, I think I didn't even understand where I was supposed to set boundaries.

I kept hearing I needed to set boundaries, and I knew I needed something, and I could only see the really big areas. Like, I want this to stop and this to stop and this to stop. But I didn't realize that every time I started to feel resentful of anything, that I could set a little boundary and that, and it was only me that had that power to protect myself with my higher power, of course. And, and he could help me figure out what that boundary was.

And, and it was just life-changing to me to be able to, to do that. So just that quote, to know like, oh, I actually, I'm tired of picking up my kids' shoes in front of the front door. So I need a boundary. I'm getting a little resentful here. Like it's in all aspects of my life and whether I do it all the time or not, I'm grateful for that little phrase that was given to me at that very beginning stages of my journey that I, if I'm starting to feel resentful, I need a boundary.

And I think about that often. Yeah.

Justin B.: And I think that's a powerful phrase and a bit of advice, no matter where I'm coming from, whether I'm the betrayed, whether I'm the addict, whether I'm somebody who's living life and just out there and start feeling resentful. I can maybe reflect on that and say, hmm, I'm feeling resentful. Maybe I need a boundary here. What does that look like? And maybe connect with higher power at that point and say, what does that look like? What do I need to do here?

I love that. Okay. So closing question that we ask in each of these conversations that we have in the Pathway to Recovery podcast is, what experience, strength, and hope do you have to share with the newcomer who's first coming into the rooms and then to the old-timer, somebody who's been in the rooms for a while and maybe thinking, do I need to still be here or should I bail? Let's start, Jan. What experience, strength, and hope do you have to share for these 2 people?

Jan S.: For the newcomer, continue to come. It's probably overwhelming for you and the opportunity to be able to change nothing. My favorite saying is nothing changes if nothing changes. And if your life is in chaos and you're noticing that You're not feeling good, whether it be physically or emotionally, there is peace and serenity and hope that can come from attending these meetings. It may seem a little weird at first, a little different, not something you're used to.

Push through that and come and keep coming, and you will embrace recovery. You really will. To the old people, we need you. We need your experience, your strength, your hope. how things have changed for you through this program. And that's, that's basically it. Just keep coming. It really works when we work it, having a willing heart.

Justin B.: Love it. Thanks, Jen. Karen, same questions for you.

Karin C.: To the newcomer, I'm thinking about how when I came, I mean, I've been doing this for a while, but I can't say that I was was fully converted right away, if that's the word we want to use here. But I've said before that I dated SAL for a while before I got engaged and then got married to the ideas and principles, right? Before I was fully committed or fully like, this really, really works. And we say come 6 times to, to group for a community, right?

And then there's the Recovery puzzles, because all of those things are essential, but you can't do them all at once. And it's okay to take the pressure off of yourself and just trust the process. Don't come after 2 meetings and say, I don't make a judgment either way. Like, if, if this is going to be my answer or not, most of our life doesn't work that way. It's usually just the next little ray of light. one little gem from someone, somebody says, whether it's in therapy or a friend or on TV or in a song, like, just take it one day at a time and, um, and trust the process.

And I didn't know that there was actually a pathway that works. And I don't know that people knew that 30 years ago, but I am just in awe that there is actually A path that really works. And it doesn't look the same for anyone, but there is a roadmap that seems to be working. And it has worked for me and my peace and so many other people, married or not. There is a roadmap and you can trust the process of taking it one day at a time.

And, um, I think it works. I, I, I think it works to just take life one day at a time. And these principles that I have found here in SAL with the boundaries and qualified therapy education, like, as I've done the work, it's worked for me. And I couldn't see it at the beginning if it was for sure going to work for me, but it is working for me, even though it didn't turn out the way I thought it would when I set foot in those meetings at the beginning.

So, and I think the same applies to those who have been coming for a while. Um, just keep, just keep coming because we need each other and the roadmap of us giving back. That's part of the roadmap too, right? So that we can keep it. Um, it works for us too.

Justin B.: Beautiful. Thank you so much, Karen and Jan, for your willingness to sit down and have this conversation with me about boundaries and to share this experience, strength, and hope with many out there in the world. You know, Jan mentioned earlier that She was told, hey, you need to move to Utah to get these resources. Guess what? That is not the truth anymore. You can access these resources from anywhere in the world. You can access meetings from anywhere in the world.

If you want to join in an SAL meeting for whether it's the betrayed, whether it's for the addict, go look at sal12step.org. Jump in on a Zoom meeting. If you're in an area where you know there's a lot of people that you could put together an in-person meeting, do it. We just did that in Spokane where I live. About a year ago, and we've got a thriving in-person meeting going there, and it is really cool to do.

Do this, do this work, jump in, learn about it, and get involved. And I'm going to close this out with the phrase we always use in SAL at the end of our meetings: keep coming back, everybody. It works when I work it, so work it. You are worth it.

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