The Value of Therapeutic Disclosure & Tips and Strategies for Best Outcomes w/ Dan Gray

Narrator: This is Pathway to Recovery, an SA Lifeline Foundation podcast featuring hosts Tara McCausland, who is the SA Lifeline Executive Director, and Justin B., a sex addict living in long-term recovery. We have conversations with experts and individuals who understand the pathway to healing from sexual addiction and betrayal trauma because we believe that recovering individuals leads to the healing of families. Dan Gray is a licensed clinical social worker specializing in addictions counseling.

Tara McCausland: He has a master's degree in social work and is a certified sexual addiction therapist. He is also certified as an addictions counselor with the National Association of Forensic Counselors. He maintains a busy private practice lecturing regularly and providing training and consultation to numerous civic, religious, and professional organizations throughout the country. He's the clinical director of the LifeStar Network program, which provides help for individuals and couples who are dealing with problems related to sexual addictions and compulsive behaviors.

He has co-authored and edited 2 books, Confronting Pornography: A Guide to Prevention and Recovery for Individuals. Loved ones and leaders, also discussing pornography problems with a spouse, confronting and disclosing secret behaviors. Dan is married and the father of 4. He enjoys fly fishing, hiking, biking, and basically anything outdoors. Welcome to the Pathway to Recovery Podcast. I'm your host, Tara McCausland, and I'm really excited to have here with me Dan Gray. Thank you so much, Dan, for being here with me today.

Dan Gray: Hey, my pleasure, Tara. Thank you for asking me. It's an honor.

Tara McCausland: Dan is actually a member of our SA Lifeline Advisory Board. So in addition to being awesome and coming on the podcast, he's been a great help to the foundation for a number of years. So thank you, Dan, for being a part of this important work. So today our topic of discussion is therapeutic disclosure. In previous episodes, I have made a distinction between discovery and disclosure and, and specifically therapeutic disclosure, which we know has unique value. And Dan's been doing this work for a really long time.

I'm curious, just on the offset, why do you feel like, Dan, a formal therapeutic disclosure is important in the healing process for individuals affected by sexual addiction and betrayal trauma?

Dan Gray: Disclosure is something that we've— at LifeStar, it's been in an evolving kind of process for many years as we Initially started this work having informal kinds of disclosures. We realized that there were good disclosures and unhealthy disclosures. And so over the years, we developed kind of a protocol and format that helps us then to keep kind of our bearings so that we don't get too sidetracked by things that are going to be more disruptive to the couple than And helpful.

And maybe if I could just qualify a little bit too, I'm gonna be addressing this from taking it from kind of the context of what I'd consider to be the ideal format for a disclosure. If I were the therapist working with the addict, or I'd like maybe refer to him as the husband for our conversation, the husband and the spouse, if we could talk about it in that context, that I'd be working with the husband. Yeah.

Helping him get prepared for the disclosure. I'd have the, his spouse be working with another therapist, another colleague generally that I do this with that has experience with disclosure, knows the format, understands the process so that we're both on the same page together with it. And so we have this kind of working collegial coordination with the timing of the, and the scheduling of the disclosure, as well as the format of how we're preparing the husband and the wife for the formal disclosure that we would have planned out probably in a number of weeks or months from the time we start with.

So I just wanted to kind of give a context in terms of how I'm going to be addressing this too, Tara, if that's okay. Sure.

Tara McCausland: Yeah. Thank you.

Dan Gray: I think with the benefits, the reason we do a formal disclosure, I'm gonna, yeah, kind of address it from the first, maybe the husband's perspective and then from the spouse. And that probably the primary of the 4 or 5 main points is that it breaks the silence and the secrecy. Because as I've said for really many years, the secrecy and lies are the lifeblood of this addiction. And that it thrives, the addiction itself thrives in the darkness, secrecy.

And so whatever Whatever we're able to do to break through those lies and create an open and clear format for the couple to be able to discuss these things, it's, that's kind of the primary reason why we realized we needed to create kind of a formal disclosure type process. And so for the husband, that's it. It's breaking through that That secrecy, coming out of hiding, as we say, because staying in the darkness, staying in hiding is also perpetuating his shame.

And as we know, that shame is kind of the driving engine behind the addiction. So if we can turn the lights on in that dark, in that darkness and help him then break through, that begins the process of reducing the shame, which can also Then reduce the possibility of ongoing relapses. So it's good for his recovery process to be able to to have this in a more open format, especially with his spouse. It helps him to practice authenticity because authenticity and openness in the relationship is critical for the development of trust down the road, and there's just no way of getting around it if he's not open and honest through the process and.

Trust is not gonna be reestablished. And without trust, the relationship is, is going to fall apart. It helps him to feel also, and this is kind of an interesting context that's not talked a lot about, it really sets the ground for him to truly feel his wife's love and caring for him in the long term because he's been hiding in this shame. Yeah. And he's more than likely always thinking, well, if she really knows me or really knew what I was doing, she wouldn't love me.

So it's difficult for him to really accept and feel her love cuz there's always that feeling that if she only knew, she wouldn't feel this way about me. So he, he has a hard time feeling it and truly embracing it and accepting it. And Then after she went to discovery, then there's the lack, there, there's a whole lack of trust. Yes. And then she has a hard time really giving him love cuz she's always feeling kind of very tentative in her expression of love to him because she's not sure if he's gonna be around.

And can I really love this man that I now have, I've trusted all these years and now I can't? And so she's going to be withholding her love and affection. And so the disclosure process, it isn't the kind of magic pill that's gonna cure everything by any means, but it lays the groundwork for then true feelings of love to be expressed and to be accepted and for trust to really begin to be established. And also it provides a place of accountability.

For the husband to have accountability for what he's done in the past. It sets the groundwork for then future accountability because now he knows how to do it and he knows the importance, and he has a format through which he can then be accountable to his wife, to his therapist, to maybe his ecclesiastical leaders if he's involved in any kind of Religious community. And this is another kind of dynamic that's not discussed a lot too, in that it, for, for him, if he knows that he's made this commitment to be totally transparent and authentic and share with her all the past issues, and also is making a commitment to be 100% honest.

In future, in the future with any struggles or relapses or slips that he may have, that it sets up in his own mind the realization that if I slip, I have to tell my wife. Where if there's still secrecy and he doesn't fully have that commitment of disclosing, then there's always just that little bit of wiggle room for him. He's got his foot in the door that says, Well, if she's in a bad place, I'm not gonna share her with her.

If this is too much for her to deal with, the kids have been really bad this last week and I just slipped. Well, it's what I call a benevolent cop-out. So it's, and it's a cop-out in essence because he is using his benevolence, as it were, or acting honorable that he doesn't want to disturb her. And so doesn't disclose. Where if he has made his decision that he's going to fully open up and be transparent, that knowledge and that commitment can also be a deterrent for his acting out.

When he has that point of choice, when he's feeling those cravings and he feels the desire to look at pornography or whatever his issues are, if he knows in the next 24 hours, he's going to be looking at his wife and seeing those tears in her eyes and feeling that sense of shame. If he knows that's what's going to happen, he's going to be less likely to then act out. Does that make sense? Yeah. Yeah. So tho— those are kind of the reasons for the, the husband, and there are others as well, but those are Main 4 or 5 elements that I've seen as being really critical issues and why we want to have the disclosure process for him.

For the wife, for the spouse, there's been, as we know, such pain and loss, and the discovery can charge a tremendous amount of trauma and feelings of betrayal. That, and which raises her own questions about her own judgment. Why did I even marry this man? How have I then believed him all these years? Where's my own judgment? Questioning that, wondering, am I not enough for him sexually? All kinds of questions, pain that's associated with it. And between them then it's the dissolving of trust.

Yeah. And so the formal disclosure process is a way to at least begin the foundation of building trust. And if she knows also that there's going to be a full disclosure, if format has been set up, she has her therapist, he has his, they're working through the workbooks, getting ready for the disclosure, then she doesn't feel like she needs to constantly be The detective and constantly wondering what he's doing, looking at his phone, seeing if he's still slipping.

Because it's not uncommon for the wife to become kind of obsessed with his obsession and lose then sight of her own journey and the importance of her doing her own work. And if she is able to feel settled that His therapist is really working with him to have him be fully open and honest. And in that preparation that it's going to be happening in a few weeks or in a month or so, she can be more at peace, assured that he's going to be doing this.

And she doesn't have to be driving the process. She doesn't have to be the police. Watching what he's doing, and she can then more focus on her needs, on her own self-care, and doing the work that she needs to do. It also helps a wife work through that process of realizing that she's probably felt for a long time that something's wrong. And before discovery, she maybe was feeling that She was going crazy because she felt something was wrong in the relationship.

And he's been maybe gaslighting her by telling her, no, I'm fine. What's your problem? Don't worry. I've already, I told you I already dealt with these things. Or, my, we were married and I haven't had a problem. She just has this intuitive sense that something's off. Yeah. And the disclosure, of course, the initial revelation of things has created the trauma, but now preparation for disclosure can give her a sense that she's going to really understand why she's been feeling all of these things for such a long time.

And working through a formal process, it also helps guide her through and helps her prepare questions because that's a part of the preparation for disclosure is allowing the wife To share with her therapist questions that she wants to have answered. Because in his narrative of his disclosure issues, he may not be addressing some very specific questions that she has, which could be something like, during the birth of our second child, I was in the hospital for days with complications.

You didn't come to visit. Were you acting out? those kinds of things that he may not be addressing in his formal disclosure because maybe he wasn't acting out during that time. And so it wouldn't be in his, in his narrative. Hmm. So if, if she has very specific questions, it's going to be important for her to be able to share those with her therapist. Then we'll share it with, with his therapist and have him prepared to answer all of those questions, either in the narrative of the disclosure or specifically directed to those questions during the time of the actual formal disclosure.

It also sets the stage for the authenticity and accountability on, even on her part, because as he's opening up, then she's being encouraged to also be candid and open up She more than likely has been a bit perhaps overly sensitive, thinking, oh, I can't disrupt him too much. I can't disturb him. I can't let him know that I'm really maybe thinking about separation and divorce, or I have these other questions about it. And every time I bring it up, he gets angry.

And when he gets angry, then he withdraws. And when he withdraws, he acts out. So the cycle is that she ends up feeling responsible for his acting out and is not totally transparent with him about her own journey and her, the emotions and feelings that she's having. So a formal disclosure just kind of begins that process of really opening things up. Hmm. And so hopefully that answered the That question for you. Yeah.

Tara McCausland: Yeah. Well, I wanted to just reiterate some of the things that I felt like were standouts for me. I appreciate that you bring up, it really is in the silence and the secrecy where addiction thrives and disclosure is really going to help bring, bring it out all into the light, right? So that the, the addictive behavior loses a lot of its power just in the light of, of honesty. That's right. I appreciated that, but also that opportunity to practice the authenticity and the openness, which Which we hope will start again in the relationship.

One of the thoughts that I had though, as you were talking, thought there might be some people listening thinking, I could do this without a therapist. I mean, my husband and I can just maybe prepare questions for each other. What would your response be to someone who, who said we can do this without a professional or assistance?

Dan Gray: I'm kind of therapy biased, but if I'm, if I'm thinking about the ideal circumstances, cuz I've seen it happen that way, Tara. And it's, it's kind of, it, it adds to the risk that it's not going to go well. Can couples do it in a way which is going to be healthy for both of them? Sure. But there are certain dynamics that the therapist can help to provide for them in warning and preparation. Yeah. To avoid certain pitfalls in terms of the preparation for it, and then what to do following the disclosure.

Some things that we'll probably talk about as well. I would strongly suggest if you have the time and resources to have therapist, a therapist that can help guide you through this. I would strongly recommend it, and have someone who has had experience with therapists that. are maybe really good at doing couples work, but if they haven't really gone through a disclosure process, they can kind of do things that are going to kind of set 'em up for premature failure with it.

Maybe pushing things too quickly, encouraging things like forgiveness perhaps for the spouse. And that would be also a warning for any kind of ecclesiastical leader to Not be too quick to go to, well, you, you need to, you need to forgive him now. Forgiveness comes, but then what's the difference between forgiveness and trust? Right. There is a big difference there. We could spend time on that one as well. Another thought with that, Tara, is that not everyone can access a therapist, and I, I surely understand that.

There are workbooks we've developed. Workbooks for the spouse and for the addict to use in that preparation. They're about 40 to 50 page workbooks with exercises in them and guidelines for them to be able to follow. So in other clinics, other therapists throughout the country have also developed their own disclosure process. So I would be very Glad to help provide some of that material for those that would want that. Or if you have another therapist that has developed their own disclosure protocol, then you could access those materials and, and as long as the both of you are going to follow those pretty strictly.

Tara McCausland: Yeah. Well, clearly you will be biased, but I can appreciate why you would be. I just felt like that was an appropriate question to ask because I think very often as we're entering this world, we recognize the costs associated with this problem. It can be very expensive to heal from addiction and trauma. And often there's kind of a do-it-yourself or we can do this ourselves type of mentality. And I kind of just wanted to get that out there that just as you said, we wanna provide the best environment for both spouses to heal.

I thought we could liken it to, let's say your house burned down or there was major structural damage and you had to start from the bottom up again, right? To rebuild your house. You probably wouldn't do that yourself. If you were clearing out all the wreckage and you had to go in and make repairs to the foundation, you wouldn't do that yourself. You would go and you would seek out professional services. And I think similarly, when it comes to disclosure, we do well To receive help from those like you who, who understand the parameters of how we can make this the best experience possible so that the foundation can be strong to build up from.

And you kept repeating that, that we're laying the groundwork for trust and healing and love and accountability to grow. And that's really how I see this, that we're, we're building a strong foundation. And so we want this to be. Yeah. We want this to be done right. So thank you for all that explanation.

Dan Gray: If, if people are considering doing this on their own, or it's also very common for couples to do a bit of their own disclosing process before they have a formal one set up, because there's been a lot of trauma. The wife is saying, I need to know what you've done. I need to know if I'm in a safe place. Are you safe to be with our kids? Do you have an STD? And so it's real common for there to be kind of a push for a disclosure process even before the formal one is set up.

And so if, if couples are thinking about doing that, how about if we just talk about some of those dos and don'ts real quickly? Sure. Yeah. Because there, and I'm just, there, there are about 4 or 5 different kinds of, uh, that I consider to be un— I just call them unhealthy disclosures. And one is what we just refer to as kind of a drive-by or a staggered disclosure. And that's where the husband kind of impulsively reveals secrets just on the fly when they're driving by a place and he's feeling some overwhelming shame.

And so he just kind of says, oh, That's where I did this. That's where I did that. And it's kind of an impulsive revealing of the secrets. Then he divulges the secrets like at inconvenient times. So they're driving and about on their way to a dinner party and all of a sudden he's dumped this on her and she has all these emotions and now they're supposed to go in and be friendly and open with their friends.

Also, A husband can kind of hide behind incomplete and vague information. So he feels like he's disclosing, but he's really just giving her bits and pieces because he's not really prepared to fully disclose everything to her yet. So it's kind of a piecemeal staggered thing where he omits important information. He keeps sometimes changing his story because he maybe shares it with her when he is feeling really emotional. Then she asks him about it. Yeah. about it later, and then he remembers some other things about it.

And then now it sounds different to her, and then she distrusts him more because now it seems like he's even being more dishonest with her again. And so he'll then end up sounding like he's contradicting himself. And so that can set up a real confusing type of a process for the wife because she's not getting everything. And it's, and then she just keeps thinking, well, if I keep asking him questions, Then he'll give me more. And so that sets up what, you know, what we kind of look at is the interrogation disclosure.

And that's kind of initiated by the wife because she's wanting to know so badly what happened. And so she has a tendency then to ask questions and ask them repeatedly. He gets really frustrated. Well, I already answered that, but she's kind of testing him out to see if He's gonna keep his story straight cuz sometimes he doesn't. And then so she feels like she's got to be the interrogator and again, the detective. And so just those are some of the things.

And also there's kind of what we, we just call it, kind of call it dump disclosure. And that's where I've referred to it a little bit already, but where the husband has things welling up. He's been sharing things with his therapist. He feels some relief because He's been able to disclose some of those things. Maybe he's, he's opened up to his church leader and now he goes home after talking to the therapist or the church leader.

He, and he just says, okay, well, this is what I told them. I'm feeling all this relief cuz I finally said everything. And then he tells her when the kids have just gone down to bed and she's tired and doesn't have a lot of emotional reserves. Yeah. And all of a sudden he's dumping all this information on me, and that can feel very, very overwhelming. And so a part of the formal disclosure process is preparation. And that's, you know, something that we were talking about, maybe discussing as well.

Mm-hmm. Is it's preparation. That's where therapists and support comes into play, is how to get ready for the, for it rather than just having these Periodic, occasional, staggered, or dumping kinds of disclosures to go on, because those rarely go well. It causes a lot of friction. There's not preparation, and it can actually increase the feelings of distrust. Yeah.

Tara McCausland: Thank you for bringing all those up. Those are the types of disclosures we want to avoid, as you suggested, and I've As you talked about the trickle disclosure, as it's kind of coming piecemeal, that can be extraordinarily traumatizing. You can think of it as, I think Dan Drake, who I interviewed for another podcast episode, he talked about that's like having multiple surgeries over and over, right? That you get a little piece of information, then there might be some healing, and then there's the trauma again with more disclosure.

And so I love this idea of The therapeutic disclosure being well prepared for so that we can just get it all out, clear out all the wreckage at one time rather than lengthening out the process and retraumatizing the spouse over and over. So thank you again for telling us the things we don't want to do. So I am curious then, is there a point in a person's recovery journey where you would suggest that therapeutic disclosure is more appropriate?

than another time. Is there a point where you suggest to couples, let's, let's do maybe some safety and stabilization and then we do disclosure, or, or is it just variable on each couple? Does that question make sense?

Dan Gray: The answer is kind of yes on both. It is going to be a bit variable with each couple, but there are some kind of guideposts to use in making those, that determination as to when it's going to be most appropriate. Kind of keeping in mind with it that the, hopefully if the husband is working with a professional that knows about addiction and is able to understand what his history is, that his disclosure process should begin in the very first session that he has with his therapist.

Because in that process, there is a sexual history that's hopefully being Then discussed and processed where he's going through what types of behaviors he's been involved in, how long it's been, what's the history of, to what extent is, has his sexual behavior gone? Is it pornography strictly, or has he had it in relationships with women? Is there infidelity? Is it strip joints? You know, just the whole gamut of his sexual behavior. And I let them, my clients know right up front that if he's not fully open and honest with me, we're not gonna go anywhere.

I can't treat what I don't know. And so that disclosing process has to begin right in the beginning of his therapy. And so gradually, hopefully he's being desensitized a bit. To that time when he's going to need to be disclosing this then to his probably church leader if he's involved in a religious community. And then that is also then a segue then into being able to develop his full disclosure for his, his wife, because disclosing it to his wife is going to be more difficult and traumatic.

And as he's going through that incremental process of disclosure, he will hopefully become less and less sensitive to it. Not to mention if he's also in a group, that in the group process, he's getting a chance to also be open and disclose and to share in that context as well. So the light is kind of, it's like a dimmer light. It's gradually coming on a little brighter and brighter, beginning with that first interview with this therapist.

Yeah. And then this of course then leads, leads to the, the formal disclosure process. And so, you know, another thing with, with the husband as a therapist looking at his ability to deal with the disclosure, preparing for the disclosure can be quite triggering. Mm-hmm. Because like in our workbooks, he's needing to go through and identify very specific kinds of sexual behaviors that he's been involved And so he's, when he thinks of those things, of course he's gonna have an image come into his mind.

And so the preparation process can actually be a bit triggering for him. And so the therapy needs to be also in helping him to deal with his triggers, dealing with the visual triggers that he may have or the fantasy triggers that come up, but also dealing with the anxiety and stress that he's feeling, knowing that he's going to have to be disclosing these things to his wife. Yeah. That can then bring up some more of those emotional triggers.

You're probably aware of what we, the acronym that we have is BLAST. It stands for bored, lonely, angry, stressed, tired, and shamed. So it's BLAST. And the preparation for the disclosure can really trigger the anxiety and stress. And fear of rejection, the fear of being alone. And so until he's able to, to more appropriately and adequately deal with these triggers, it's not a good idea to start diving into the preparation for the disclosure until he has a pretty good handle on managing those things.

Now that's the preparation for him. For the spouse, because of the amount of trauma that's occurred, Therapeutically, we wanna be looking at how has she dealt with these trauma responses and reactions? And is she learning how to mitigate the high levels of stress and trauma that she feels, the panic that she feels? Is she able to find her self-regulation through regulating skills with meditation work or Knowing how to do really good, healthy self-care. He's hopefully having a group that's providing support.

She needs to have support as well. If she's in a group, then establishing those relationships and having them be aware that the, this disclosure's coming up and helping her feel their love and support. And she's got that foundation. And so her ability to manage the trauma, she also is gonna have triggers herself. Yeah. When they go through the disclosure, she may have already heard most of it. On the other hand, there may be some revelations that she's not prepared for that are gonna be particularly traumatic.

And if she hasn't been prepared to know how to deal with that dysregulation she's going to experience, then it's going to be a really, really difficult process. So. That's a part of what the therapeutic work would be to make sure that she's ready for it as well, and that he's ready for all the triggers that, that, that come up during that process.

Tara McCausland: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. So I'm curious then, so if we've got all of this preparation happening before the actual disclosure, and then we have disclosure, what types of recommendations, suggestions do you give to partners? Like immediately following disclosure, because it, it is a difficult experience for both sides. Yeah.

Dan Gray: Yeah. Right. And I, and I think in part the way that it's going to be handled afterwards and preparation for that is going to, the way that's going to be done is going to be determined also by what kind of preparations they've had beforehand. This is where also the preparation is important. In terms of setting up the disclosure in a way that's going to be as regulating as possible emotionally. So the way that we do it ideally is to have the couple come in separate cars to, to the disclosure so they're not driving together.

We set it up at a specific time. We usually prescribe a good 2-hour block. Okay. At least to do the disclosure. We help them prepare for the process that she's going to be able to sit with the therapist, her therapist, and kind of go over again the process, help to kind of keep things calm. He's going to do the same with his, that then the room is set up to her liking. It's usually done in the Her therapist's room, so it's a comfortable place for her.

Having then even the details, the small details as to who's gonna be sitting where, that she's gonna sit probably where she feels comfortable. Where does she want him? Straight across from her while he reads his disclosure? Does she want her therapist sitting next to her as a source of stability and support? Does she want me as his therapist sitting kind of on the side? Yeah. And, and then for them to know that we as therapists are really concerned about their, their physical and emotional welfare, that it's going to last a certain time.

She's going to have her chance to ask questions. So she comes with a pad of paper and a pencil and, or we provide that, but then make it a comfortable place. And she can know that if she gets kind of dysregulated, that she can Call a timeout. We take a break for a few minutes. She can step out, get some water, go to the restroom, come back. Know that it's going to be, we're gonna be watching very closely to help them with the processes that they're going through and the emotional reactions and responses they're having.

And that's then, Tara, in kind of in preparation for then the follow-up, what it, What do we do afterwards? Because we don't know exactly what's going to happen, so we have to have kind of a plan A and a plan B in place. So it's important for both of them to have friends or their groups knowledgeable about when the disclosure is so that they have them on alert, kind of on the wings waiting for a call if they, if they're needing support again.

Yeah. She may need someone to drive her. So she may have wanted to have someone drop her off and someone pick her up. She's, if she's really had a lot of traumatic response, she's not gonna wanna be driving and going home to her kids. And so it's good to have preparation for childcare so that she doesn't have to go home and just dive right into her duties and responsibilities. And for him, To have a place where he's going to be staying, that the two of them make some decisions.

Okay, if, if we're really triggered here, then she may not want him to come home and sleep at home. And so what are the plans? If they don't make those plans prior to, then he's gonna be set into a panic. Oh, where am I gonna stay? Gee, do I have to call my parents now? Mm-hmm. Uh, Hotels are full around us. Where am I gonna stay? Some couples really feel the need to have that space. That's determined by the spouse.

Other times, spouse may, she may say, actually, this has gone how I had hoped. I'm feeling some compassion. I would really like to be together. I know we had planned to have you maybe stay someplace else, but I'd really like you to come home. Or I'd like for us to go out to dinner to one of our favorite places now. And so having just some of those plans predetermined is, is, is really important.

Tara McCausland: Well, I really love all that detail that you shared, Dan, because I think when it comes to the body, for instance, we recognize like if we were getting a major surgery, there would be pre-op care. You'd have the surgery and then you'd have post-op care. And we, we all understand that and recognize the need for that. But when it comes to disclosure, I think many of us don't recognize this is, this is a significant event in the lives of the couple.

Dan Gray: And yes, a lot of vulnerability.

Tara McCausland: Highly prepared. Yes. Highly prepared with that pre-op preparation and that post-op care for both parties. And, and I love how you mentioned having a plan A and a plan B. We really just don't know. how both parties are going to respond after, after a traumatic and difficult experience, hopefully less traumatic because we've prepared for it well. But I really like how you frame that. And I think as, as listeners are considering that, if we can think of it as this is a major surgery and we need preparation for before and we need to have a plan for after.

So thank you for explaining all that.

Dan Gray: That's right, Taryn. Just one other point too, in that preparation, if you're in a group where you're going to be sharing this with family members or friends, some who may have already gone through their own kind of disclosure with their own spouse. You're going to get a lot of comments, recommendations, and direction from pretty, maybe some strong personalities as well. I would just suggest that you listen and see how that feels to you. Don't feel pressure that you've got to handle it in a certain way that That this way that they did is the best way to do it.

That's what you have to do. Listen to the advice, get the suggestions, write them down, and then have some good quiet time to contemplate about that. And if you're religiously inclined, to pray about it, get some spiritual direction, see what resonates with your heart and what's going to work for you. Because I've just seen it too many times where Sometimes, especially the spouses feel like, feel pressure, like they've gotta handle it in a certain way, or they're going to disappoint their family member or their friend or their group.

This is your time. What somebody else thinks about it, I like that adage that I've tried to live by for a long time. What you think about me is none of my business. Now I want to get advice and I want to get some direction and guidance, but don't feel like you've got to worry about whether someone thinks you're doing it right or wrong.

Tara McCausland: Great counsel. And in fact, as you're, as you were talking about that, I was thinking about support people that might be in the circle of the couple that are working through this issue. And you have mentioned faith leaders, might be close family members. Do you have any, and you have again already mentioned some things, but do you have some dos and don'ts for these support people, other clinicians or faith leaders helping with this disclosure process?

Dan Gray: I have to put myself in the place of someone who is hearing about someone that's close to me that's going through this. And there are probably some family members or friends that are so wanting to protect their sister or protect their friend or to protect their daughter that They are, they have some really strong feelings about the husband. I've seen where this happens, where there's already a bias that he's a rotten guy. They really want her to leave him.

And sometimes there's purposeful or inadvertent pressure that's placed on her to make those kinds of decisions. And so in preparation for the disclosure, it can be, well, if you find this out, if you find this out, well, I I sure hope you're not going to stick around. I sure hope you're ready just to leave him. Boy, I would be so careful not to go down those roads. Talk to her, help her feel that you're a support to her.

Ask her if she would like your opinion rather than just volunteering impulsively or spontaneously. See if she wants you to give her some suggestions or advice. And And help her to understand that you're going to, you value her judgment. You value her ability to make her decisions in accordance with her own conscience and her own mind. Otherwise, she feels like you don't think that she is emotionally stable enough to make a good decision. And let her go through that process.

You make, give your thoughts, your opinions. Be careful about what you're recommending. And I, I advise the same things to bishops in the LDS faith or priests in Catholic faith or other church leaders to be careful about kind of taking sides too quickly without knowing about the other person and having a good discussion. I've had some church leaders that will hear, first of all, the story from The husband, and the husband may have some feelings about his wife that she's been maybe unavailable sexually, or she's been kind of cold emotionally in the relationship, or she's, she's not very attentive to his needs.

And the bit— the, uh, the church leader can be a bit biased and then make some of his recommendations. Mm-hmm. To the husband in accordance with his report, he needs to call the wife in and talk to her and get her perspective. Understanding both sides is so critically important, and vice versa. If she goes in first, then she can kind of create a perspective or view that this is just a rotten guy that has ruined her life and their marriage, and she Doesn't think he'll ever change.

How could she be— he be lying to her all this time and lying to you too, church leader? And so that can create a bias. And I would just say to any supporting staff, as it were, that just get— listen to both sides. Listen carefully. Don't be too quick to make recommendations as to what they ought to do. Yeah. Doing, hear what the real story is from both perspectives. And I think I already kind of referred or implied this before, spoke about it, but the whole thing around forgiveness and trust, it's very difficult to start trying to work to forgive someone when you're still in the clutches of trauma and pain.

Yeah. To kind of set that up could make a spouse in particular feel unwarranted shame. I'm a forgiving person, but I just can't do it yet. And then they feel guilty because they're not able to forgive quickly. Forgiveness will come over time, but he also needs to be able to learn. Yeah. How to develop that trust so that forgiveness is more naturally experienced through the process. And disclosure can help that process take place. 'Cause, and trust usually takes longer than forgiveness.

Some will say, well, gee, you've, you said you forgave me, but you're still not trusting me. Well, that's pretty normal, natural. If someone, say, were to embezzle, if I had my CPA embezzle money from me, I'm hoping that I'm going to be able to trust him. I mean, to forgive him, but I don't know that I'll ever leave my money with him. I'd have to really feel a lot of trust in him and he'd have to earn that trust back before I could really fully trust.

So trust. Has to have experience and time on its side. So she needs to see over time that he is trustworthy and she needs to have enough time to feel then that she's given it enough time for him to fully be able to create that trust and, and feel that he's, he's not continuing to, to have secrets. And that's why the disclosure process is so critical.

Tara McCausland: Yeah. Great. Such good counsel. Thank you so much for addressing our support staff, as you put it. Well, before I ask you the last question that we ask all of our guests, if people want to connect with you, Dan, where's the best place to do that, to find you? I'm happy to post this in the show notes as well. Okay.

Dan Gray: Let me just give you my— I'll give you my direct cell number, 801- 891-6857.

Tara McCausland: And we'll also post your, your email address associated with LifeStar, but I suspect that there will be some people that might have some follow-up questions or interested in your workbook. So thank you so much. A direct line to Dan Gray is something to be appreciated. Well, this has been such a helpful interview. And as I said, we always end with these last questions, Dan, which are, what would you say first to the newcomer, someone that's just starting this pathway of recovery?

And what would you say to someone that has been walking this path for a while?

Dan Gray: Okay. First thing that comes to my mind, Tara, is have hope. This can be so very devastating and discouraging and feels really dark. And please know that many, many have gone through this and have found tremendous amounts of healing through the process. And so have patience, have hope, and know that as you, as you strive to get help and assistance, that if you'll reach out to others also, this isn't These problems, and it isn't just for the husband that is dealing with this, these issues and struggling that feels the shame.

Many spouses feel shame as well. There's the shame that they feel because of their husband's behaviors and now people know about it. Feelings of, I should have known better, like I was talking about earlier. And so it's not uncommon for the wife to also go underground and withdraw and pull away. And that then adds to the loneliness and isolation, which is so toxic when it comes to dealing with these issues. So have hope that you're going to make it through this.

If you do, then reach out and get help. Don't try to do this by yourself. Get help from people that you trust. Yeah. That you love and that you feel have had some maybe experience with this as well. Get some good direction, get your support system. And if you have a belief in a higher power, God, some will actually kind of withdraw from that higher power too. This is the time to reach out. This is the time to look for guidance and direction on a deep spiritual level.

level as well. So those are the things that come to my mind right off, Tara.

Tara McCausland: Wonderful. Well, thank you so much, Dan, for your time today. Appreciate you. Appreciate the great work that you've been doing for years in this arena. So know that we're so grateful for you here at SA Lifeline.

Dan Gray: Well, thank you. And please know how much value I place on you and SA Lifeline and all of those that have been involved. I have many, I've referred many good people to your program and the reports are, are just very, very consistently positive. And so thank you for the work that you do.

Tara McCausland: Thanks. Thanks, Dan.

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