Differentiating and Understanding Narcissism & Sexual Addiction w/ Sherie Christensen

Narrator: This is Pathway to Recovery, an SA Lifeline Foundation podcast featuring hosts Tara McCausland, who is the SA Lifeline Executive Director, and Justin B., a sex addict living in long-term recovery. We have conversations with experts and individuals who understand the pathway to healing from sexual addiction and betrayal trauma because we believe that recovering individuals leads to the healing of families.

Tara McCausland: Sherri Adams Christensen is a licensed marriage and family therapist. She has presented across the country and internationally, has written a book on teaching children about healthy sexuality, and is a featured speaker on podcasts when she is not recording her own. Her podcast with David Thompson, Two Therapists Talking, addresses mental health issues including sexual addiction. Welcome to the Pathway to Recovery Podcast. I am your host, Tara McCausland, and I'm really excited to have here with me, Sherry Christiansen.

Welcome, Sherry. Good to see you again.

Sherie Christensen: Yes, it's good to see you again too.

Tara McCausland: Sherry was actually a speaker at our women's workshop last year, and she did a phenomenal job. And, and we're going to actually have an interesting conversation today about narcissism and what is a narcissist. how that affects addiction. But I know that this is a buzzword in our culture, in our society right now. So I think it would be helpful to get some clarity around this today.

Sherie Christensen: Yes, I think we could talk about this for hours, honestly. But I think it's really important for us to have a really clear understanding of what NPD is, which is a little different than how people throw around that term narcissist, I think, as a buzzword. It really has taken on a life of its own, and I think often is referenced when someone is showing selfish behaviors. And so then we get this thrown around, and then people who are actually dealing with NPD themselves— narcissistic personality disorder— versus someone, or someone who is having the effects of that being a part of their partner's life, right?

They are— it's actually pretty damaging for them because now we're talking about something different and they're not getting the resources, the help, the support, the understanding of what's going on for them because everyone is using this to describe any type of selfish person in their life. And so there is a really big difference, at least enough that we really need to address it and also understand how, what that looks like in terms of addiction, what that looks like in terms of recovery for both an addict and the partner, because it's not just being selfish.

Tara McCausland: As you said, this word is being thrown around a lot and maybe not in a way that's accurate. And so what actually is a narcissist? And you're talking about this NPD diagnostic criteria. So tell us a little bit about what is this actually that we're talking about?

Sherie Christensen: Narcissistic personality disorder. So NPD, it's a personality disorder with the DSM. I don't know how many of your clients are going to be familiar, or people that are listening are familiar, that's the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders. So the DSM-5 is what we're working from currently, that version. And this has everything in it, everything from ADHD or autism or anxiety or depression or personality disorders, schizophrenia, like all of those things are part of this and they're cataloged and they're categorized.

And so a personality disorder is very different than, say, bipolar or an anxiety or depression disorder. It's actually inherent in their personality. So depression can show up. It can be there lifelong. It can be something that affects their personality or affects them in their life and throughout their life. But it is not— it's different than something that is inherent to the person themselves. Does that make sense? It's a little bit more complicated. It— what that means then is that this is a lifelong thing.

Depending on the personality disorder, there can be some shift and movement. For example, borderline personality disorder has probably the highest trajectory of being able to shift and change, and narcissistic personality disorder is on the lower end of that. So personality disorders are inherent characteristics in the personality, and so they're much more pervasive. There's less that you can necessarily do about them. Again, that depends a little bit on the personality disorder. So this is a— it's a Cluster B personality disorder.

And so as we're just looking at that, it's want to look at the diagnostic characteristics versus somebody maybe having some tendencies or traits toward narcissism, and that actually makes a difference in what's going on. So personality disorders are more rare, and personality disorders start in early adulthood, and they're throughout their, their life. It's not just, oh, I only show up this way At work, or I only show up this way with one person. So as we're looking at what NPD actually is and what the diagnostic criteria are, there are 9 criteria.

So in order to have this, you have to have 5 or more of the following characteristics. I'm actually just going to go down the 9 criteria. So the first one is a grandiose sense of self-importance. I am the end-all be-all. Everyone should just see how incredibly amazing I am. And this is almost like a God complex, right? Mm-hmm. The second one is to be preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty, ideal love. money, those kinds of things.

So always thinking about how I can be the best and how I'm just gonna be the most amazing person in all of these different categories. The third one is to believe that they are special and unique and they can only be understood by or associate with other special or high-status people or institutions. So when you see that, like, the person who, like, just gets this extra boost because they have the— they get to bypass security at the airport, or they have this special feature, the special status here, the special status there, Hmm.

you may see They will talk down about people who aren't like worthy of them, or they will just want to be on all these upper echelons in society or in their work or whatever. The next— this is, so this is number 4— is requiring excessive admiration. They just need people to be fawning over them, to tell them how amazing they are, to really reinforce their status that they believe that they have. So if, if a job or a spouse isn't just constantly providing that for them, it's really gonna cause a lot of internal distress for them.

Hmm. They may end up quitting their job or talking about how horrible their boss is, 'cause they just don't see my potential. They just don't understand how, what I can offer. And bring to the table, if it continues, they oftentimes will quit and move on to try to find someone or something that will provide that for them. And while this isn't a diagnostic, you're not going to find this in the DSM, these people are commonly referred to as your flying monkeys, like that people are just going to follow you around and do whatever you want and just think that you're incredible, kind of grovel at your feet.

kind of people. So they have to have these kinds of people around them. And if you choose not to be one of those kinds of people, you will be devalued and discarded. Number 5 is having a sense of entitlement. I should just get this because I'm me. I should just get to skip the line. I should get the promotion because I'm me. Like, I shouldn't have to obey the law in these ways because I'm above that, right?

That kind of goes back to that grandiose sense of importance that they're special and unique. So number 6 then is that you're interpersonally exploitative. So they use other people for their purposes. And as we'll talk about later, depending on kind of the flavor, how that shows up for each individual person. They could be really doing that intentionally, trying to harm, or they could just be doing it like, you're there, I need this thing, I'm just using you in that way.

And they don't have a moral sense of that, right? Like, I'm not doing something wrong, I just need that thing and you're in the way. Sure. That's the nice version of it, and there's more intense versions of that, but they use people for their purposes. And number 7 is lacking empathy. People who have NPD, full NPD, cannot feel empathy. They can learn it, but that's really important because that goes to then how they're going to do life and how you as a person interacting with someone with NPD are going to get confused in a lot of situations and expect them to act in certain ways because most people can have empathy, right?

And they, they can't feel that. They can learn what it looks like to feel that, but they can't actually feel that. Number 8 is obvious— often being envious of others or believing that other people are envious of them. So just thinking about people who are in the place that they think that they should be Because of that entitlement and being jealous of that and upset or angry about that. And then simultaneously thinking, because I'm so amazing, they're just jealous of my situation.

They're just upset with me because I'm so amazing and they're jealous of that rather than because they're doing behaviors that are hurting people or they are exploiting other people. It's not because of that. It's because, oh, they're just jealous of how amazing I am. And then number 9 is it's arrogant, haughty behaviors and attitudes. So those are the criteria.

Tara McCausland: And you said to be diagnosed with NPD, you would need 5 or more of these traits. Yes. Correct. Okay. Interesting.

Sherie Christensen: You have to have 5 or more of those. They have to be pervasive. They have to be present since the beginning of adulthood. They're most of the time— this go— this really goes all the way back, but they don't diagnose you until you're an adult. Yeah, this is what it is. And so I wanted to put all those out there because I think it's really important for people who are listening to know this is what it actually is.

You really have to have all of these things, and it's super unusual for me to come in contact with someone with NPD that doesn't have basically all of them. Um, you really— it really all goes together. To be diagnosed, you have to be diagnosed by a professional, right? Anytime you get a diagnosis, that's something that has to be done by a professional, and typically that's something you would get a full psychological evaluation for. Um, what that means is, for someone with NPD, the likelihood that they will actually be diagnosed is very small.

Because typically they don't feel like they have a problem, right? So submitting to a full psychological evaluation is not something that they're going to usually submit to unless there's a situation that they think, oh, this isn't that. We're not— if they don't know it's maybe for that purpose and they're just like, we're just gonna look at how amazing I am, then sometimes that will happen.

Tara McCausland: Hmm. In SA Lifeline, we talk a lot about addict behaviors, and a lot of what you just listed here looks and sounds a lot like addict behaviors. Yes. And so I can see how people might get confused with addict behaviors versus someone who might be a narcissist. But as you explained, these people need to show at least 5 or more of these in a pervasive frequent, consistent way. Um, but let's talk about that. Addict behaviors often are seen as narcissistic and addicts as narcissists.

Are they the same?

Sherie Christensen: They're not. NPD is actually often comorbid with addiction, which means they go together really frequently. Um, the reason why is because it fits Addiction, sexual addiction in particular, dovetails really nicely with NPD attitudes and behaviors. Sex addiction is generally exploitative. It's using people to get what you want, right? It— if you don't have empathy, if you can't feel empathy, that fits really nicely with that space. NPD is something that is comorbid with addiction a lot, a lot of the times, but it's the square in the rectangle kind of a scenario where if I'm working with someone who has been diagnosed with NPD, the likelihood that they have issues in this addictive area is really high, but it's not necessarily the other way around.

someone who has a sexual addiction, they're not going to have NPD automatically or even necessarily close to that. NPD in the population is relatively low. So it's just not everyone in here or everyone that's being selfish is and has NPD.

Tara McCausland: Mm-hmm. Which should be hope-filling, I think, because as you explained at the beginning, NPD is really hard to treat. Yes. As you explained. And so if we can accept that while someone that is dealing with sexual addiction might show or exhibit some of these behaviors, the likelihood of them actually being narcissists is quite low. It's treatable. Their symptoms are treatable. What we're seeing them manifest is treatable. Yes.

Sherie Christensen: Yes. And I think the more that you're involved in sexual addiction, because it is conducive to exploiting people and those kinds of things, it is going— you are going to look more that way, right? You're going to have some of those characteristics. You're going to be a little more selfish. You're— and they've done studies on that. It— these types of exploitative behaviors become more acceptable in your mind. So again, as you're treating the sexual addiction And there's recovery and there's healing and there's sobriety, you'll see that waning.

There's hope, there's like that recovery, there's that healing that happens, and those behaviors start to diminish. So they can look similar a lot of the time, but instead of like panicking or jumping to that or using that as a reason to— this is why my life is so hard— well, you're just you have NPD. That's going to be less useful if you want to move forward in relationship. Like, hopefully they don't have NPD because that's going to be way harder, and the likelihood of recovery, of treating and getting through NPD, is very low.

Tara McCausland: So moral of the story is you just hope you're not dealing with NPD.

Sherie Christensen: Yes, you hope, and also you're working towards You're working towards that, Sabra. You're working toward that recovery instead of just jumping down the rabbit hole and just, oh, this is just what it is. It's looking at all of those things and saying, okay, okay, they can feel empathy. They can connect with me. And looking at the positive sides of your partner and of the relationship instead of just jumping into the negatives and Yeah.

Tara McCausland: Yeah, that makes sense. So apparently there are types of narcissists. I was curious if you could tell us a little bit more about that. Yeah, maybe how to spot them.

Sherie Christensen: The types of narcissists again are not part of the diagnostic criteria. It's not part of the DSM, but they're commonly seen and understood in the therapist community and, and outside of that. So there are people that have tried to classify like a dozen different kinds. But I think the 3 main types that we see are the classic, which looks a little bit more like we think about them in our minds, right? The kind of person that's out in front of everybody, very charismatic and just in the spotlight and just pulling everybody to them and adore me in a very kind of public way.

They're always talking about themselves, they're always trying to up their status in front of everyone. The second type is the COVID narcissist, and that type is generally not as loud and out there and flamboyant. A lot of their criteria are met internally or in more of a small group setting. So they may really think they're above everyone else, but they're not. Like, it's almost like an introverted version of a narcissist. So they might be telling people, I would have gotten the promotion, but they just didn't.

I could have been the best. I would have done this, but they might blame spouses or other people in their lives for why they're not at all. Yeah. all these levels. For example, I worked with someone who had decided that the reason that they weren't having really high positions at work and in, in church areas was because their spouse was just not up to snuff and they really needed to be better. So that's a common space that you might See that, so it's it's more subtle and a little more under the surface.

But they do still have all those preoccupations. They're constantly thinking about how they're going to be the best as soon as the world sees. It's very much like I'm the underdog because I've been smashed and depressed, and people just aren't letting me thrive. But even when they're given all of those. opportunities and experiences and places where they could thrive, it's— they don't, and it's still something else that has held them back. Hmm. So that's the COVID And then the third one is the malignant narcissist.

And basically what the malignant narcissist is, it's someone who has either both antisocial personality disorder and narcissistic personality disorder, or they have quite a lot of the traits and characteristics of antisocial personality disorder, and that is not someone who doesn't like being around people. Antisocial personality disorder is what laypeople refer to as a psychopath or sociopath. So these are the people that are trying to— they have a just complete disregard for other people. get pleasure out of hurting people or causing them pain.

They're very aggressive and, and very deceitful and all of those kinds of things. No remorse, no anything like that. So someone who is a malignant narcissist is someone that is like that as well. They incorporate all of those kinds of things into the way that they're showing up as a narcissist. So they're using people But it's deliberate. There might be this pleasure that they get out of that, especially if that person has wronged them. They become the enemy, and it is my purpose to destroy you, even to the point of it hurting me.

That's okay because I'm hurting you more. Hmm. So it's much more— it's much more intense. And you have to be really careful in those situations.

Tara McCausland: Yeah. Huh. So we're, we're not going to have time to go into some of these other like neurodivergent issues that might be playing into addiction. But you had brought up prior to this interview that sometimes we, we need to consider high-functioning autism also as an important differential diagnosis. And how that might look also like narcissism. Tell me a little bit more about that and how that plays into addiction.

Sherie Christensen: Yes. So with autism, there's a lot of, especially when we get to adult ages, younger ages, there's typically a lot of issues with eye contact and understanding social circumstances and things like that. As you get older, you develop some of those later on, you learn some of those characteristics. Okay, I'm not supposed to do this and I'm supposed to show up like this. These are things that everyone else inherently gets. A person with autism has to actually learn each of those things individually.

They have to learn from several experiences over time and not inherently pick up on, oh, this affects this person, or this is more socially acceptable, but sometimes it isn't. They have to actually learn from experience rather than inherently just picking up on some of these. Yeah. social things. The reason why that's important, the reason why that can end up looking sometimes like, um, like narcissism, is that they see the world— because they don't pick up on some of these other things, they see the world from their own perspective, and they don't see the world from other people's perspective.

It's harder for them to do that. They have to learn how to do that. So For example, as a kid, if you were sitting in a room with them and you had a cookie jar and you took out all of the cookies out of the cookie jar with them and put spaghetti in, if someone had been in the room when there were cookies in the cookie jar and had left the room, and then you took all the cookies out, put spaghetti in the cookie jar, and invited that other person back into the room, if you were to ask the autistic child what that other person thinks is in the cookie jar, they will say spaghetti because they don't have a concept that other people have a different experience, which is something we all just automatically pick up on as we grow.

Especially if it hasn't been diagnosed, because a lot of times high-functioning autism goes undiagnosed until adulthood. They're not getting some of that support And some of that understanding and being taught that as they grow up. So as they're in adulthood, they often really struggle with other people's perspectives, and they have a hard time understanding why you might feel differently about this situation than they do. That can look a lot like a selfish narcissistic type of a behavior, right?

Oh, you're only thinking about yourself. You're only looking at your own perspective. You don't see how this is affecting me. And so we'll see that a lot where people will say, oh, my, my spouse is just, they're narcissist, but it's very different because people who are autistic feel empathy very deeply. They want to be able to connect. They care very much about you. They just have to think through the other perspective. It just takes them a little longer to process that.

They're not being selfish at all. It's just a different way that their brain is working. So that can absolutely come up.

Tara McCausland: I am recollecting talking to a woman whose husband had sexual addiction and they were working their recovery and had been for a number of years. And then it wasn't until later down the line in their work that he received a diagnosis of high-functioning autism, I believe, if I'm remembering this right. And she said, and that's actually been extremely helpful because we needed to treat the autism. Yes. In order to make the headway in the recovery of the addiction.

So tell me a little bit about that, because Do you see a lot of people walking into your office that are dealing with sexual addiction and then they have these other issues that maybe, maybe harder to see and need to be worked on before they can even deal with the addiction? Does that make sense?

Sherie Christensen: Yes, for sure. 100%. It happens a lot. If you're not dealing with other things, if you, then you're not able to, because addiction is This is a surface something. It's here because there are other pieces of distress that are going on, right? And this is a to use IFS language. This is a protector, or this is a in in other language. This is like a coping mechanism to deal with other things that are going on. So through the addiction recovery process, right?

If you're going to your groups, if you're doing your 12-step work, you're— that's the point of that work, right, is to get underneath and to find the layers of things going on underneath that are causing this. But this is not— that's not where you get diagnoses. You don't like start going, okay, what are my character defects? And go, I have autism, or I have depression. Yes, you can maybe come to some of those easier ones like depression or anxiety, but Going through a 12-step program isn't going to remove major depressive disorder or autism, right?

You have to get other treatment and medications in some instances. You have to gain an understanding if you are high-functioning autistic how your brain works in a different way than others and. Why that has caused you a lot of distress, which makes sense inherently as we look at that. Yeah, if your brain is working in this different way, you're constantly trying to figure out how do other people know what's going on? I don't know what's going on.

That can cause a lot of self-esteem issues. That can cause a lot of depression and anxiety. Those are often comorbid with autism, and then you start mixing all these things in, and then sexual addiction is. Comes out as a way to cope with all of those things. So with anything, we want to get down to what's underneath. But if you aren't considering those things and they're parts of your psyche and parts of what are going on for you, you're going to not get very far in your recovery process, even if you're trying to be super diligent about it, because you have other things going on.

Tara McCausland: Yeah. So I wonder then, because you work with people that deal with sexual addiction, how often do you have people coming into your office and they have these comorbid issues that, that you are then assessing and treating?

Sherie Christensen: It is actually pretty common. So at least at some level there, it's really common to have anxiety. It's really common to have depression. And sometimes those are a direct result of acting out behaviors and develops over time as this coping mechanism develops over time. A lot of times they're actually pre— they predate addictive behaviors, but it's also extremely common to have other things going on. Like ADHD is very comorbid with sexual addiction, sexual addiction and other addictions.

It's a dopamine boost, right? And ADHD is a dopamine deficiency. So if you're running around with way less dopamine in your body than a normal human should have, you're constantly looking for dopamine. It dovetails really well. It fits really well. These other personality disorders or autism, or those are Less frequent in the general population, but they do. We do absolutely see those things in, in sexual addiction. And so that's one of the reasons why it's so critically important to make sure that you aren't just going to groups.

You aren't just doing those other things. You need to be in therapy because there are just a lot of additional pieces you want to make sure you get taken care of. Yeah. It is not uncommon for someone with ADHD to get on medication and suddenly they just really don't care that much about acting out. Hmm. It really will drop that. Also anxiety. We see that a lot. You get some of these things treated and it can really help.

It can really help the recovery process. Yeah.

Tara McCausland: Thank you so much for speaking to that. Because at SA Lifeline, we do really emphasize in our recovery puzzle that 12-step is helpful, but only to the extent that you are also getting good therapy, that standalone, they're not going to be as helpful. There is a lot of power in community. Yes. And of course, there's the God piece, the connection with God in 12-step that you won't probably get in therapy. But on the flip side, as you're describing, there are going to be these other issues most often that are playing into, that are driving addictive behaviors.

And as you said, a lot of these issues might predate the development of the addiction itself. So I appreciate that so much because once again, we don't wanna be like purists, like I only do therapy or I only do 12-step or I only— Yeah. There needs to be a team of people helping these individuals that are suffering from these behaviors.

Sherie Christensen: And I require my clients to be in some type of 12-step group because you need more support than just once a week. You need some of those things. And, and connecting— addiction is a connection disorder, right? Because you've isolated, you've withdrawn in order to protect yourself, in order to feel okay about what's going on in the world. Exactly like you're saying, that connection to God, that connection to, to a community. to others and that connection to self that you get both through therapy and through the 12-step program of realizing what's going on underneath and healing and working through all that so that you can be with yourself on a more consistent basis.

Like, those are key in recovery.

Tara McCausland: Yeah, we're going to circle back to talking a little bit more about NPD. Why does having an understanding of narcissistic personality disorder matter?

Sherie Christensen: It matters to make sure that you really understand what's going on, either for yourself or for people around you, right? When we really understand people, they make sense. And that doesn't necessarily mean we're excusing any types of behaviors, right? Just because someone has NPD, that doesn't mean that we don't have boundaries with them, but it helps us understand things about why they're doing what they're doing. It helps us understand them and make sense of what's going on.

And when we do that, we can actually have quite a bit of compassion for their experience. It would really not be a fun place to live If you couldn't have empathy for people, if you couldn't see them as someone you can really connect with, and it feels like they're doing it to themselves. They're they just think they're better than everybody. But this isn't something they're choosing, right? This is something that is a part of their personality disorder.

It is a diagnosed thing, and that can change how we. Show up, how we understand them, and it can give us more compassion for that experience. I would 100% rather live where I'm at than live with a diagnosis like that, which means that I literally— empathy is such a critical piece of love. It's such a critical piece of connection. That sounds like a horrible life. That would be really hard. Yeah. And I can then set boundaries around that because it's still inappropriate for you to treat me this way, even if you don't understand and aren't totally capable of showing up in a different way all the time.

I can still set boundaries around that to keep myself safe. But understanding the difference between those 2 things and showing up differently around that helps us to live in ourselves instead of putting things on other people that aren't actually theirs to hold. There, there isn't a huge likelihood of change if you have NPD, but most people don't have NPD, so there is an ability to connect and work on those other things. and not just slide someone into this other category.

But if they are in this category, that's really important information for your choices moving forward and the boundaries that you choose to set. And truly, if people are working from these comorbid experiences, this is a space where we need God because maybe they don't choose to shift or change. Maybe they have NPD and they cannot get to that place. We still have to be able to show up in a forgiving space, and we have to get to that point.

We may never be able to trust them, but it's critical that we can forgive them. And that, I think, is the God piece that has to come in to play here, because If God takes care of the physical things that we go through, like he makes that better, right? If we're born without a leg, right? God will make that better. The same is true of mental illness. And if we can't get to a place where we can forgive that other person, really understand and do that, which we have to have boundaries for, and we have to understand the difference between forgiveness and trust, but we have to get to that place if we're gonna be okay with God maybe taking that away, and then maybe they're an amazing person in the next life.

We have to come to that space and be able to hold space for that possibility if it's NPD. And even if it's a spectrum— like we talk about spectrum things— even if they just have a lot of traits that way. It's really important for us to understand clearly and see all of these things as their protectors that are coming up from wounds that they've received, and to be able to walk through that space of coming to a space of forgiveness, even if we can't have a close relationship.

And so understanding what is actually going on for someone, whether it's autism, whether it's depression, whether it is any NPD is really important in our understanding of what their life experiences and our ability to come from a compassionate, caring space. Even if we can't ever even speak on the phone with them, everything has to be in writing so that we have legal documentation of things so that when we get taken back to court because of X, Y, or Z, we have proof and all of those things, right?

That's not an uncommon occurrence with NPD. Right? But you can still love them from very far away and have that forgiveness. But understanding is critical to being able to forgive, to being able to heal.

Tara McCausland: Yeah. Yeah. I appreciate you ending on that note because there will be, using a 12-step term, there are many things that we have to surrender that we cannot control, right? In ourselves and in others. And if we can approach the world and those that we come in contact with, with more compassion, we will be happier, we will be more peaceful. So there is a direct benefit to us as we have that lens versus, what's wrong with you?

Why can't you get your crap together?

Sherie Christensen: Yes, 100%. It does. It shifts everything, and it's really critical. And also, because I'm just going to throw this in there because I know listeners are— there's going to be listeners who are freaking out that we're just saying that, but I have been hurt. These things are happening to me and you just want me— like, that's what I've been doing this whole time is just trying to be compassionate, trying to be understanding, trying to be all of these things.

And I would say, remember, you get to have boundaries, right? Yes. That's a really critically important piece here. And actually the more that you have boundaries, The more you can come from self instead of a protective space.

Tara McCausland: Yes. Yes. That would be an important next conversation, right? How do we draw boundaries with somebody that has NPD? So yes, that's a very important piece that we have talked quite a bit about boundaries on this podcast. But for those who are listening, why don't you go back and listen to an episode or 2 on boundaries and recognize, yes, you, it is your opportunity and responsibility to keep yourself safe. And we are not meant to be doormats.

for anyone regardless of what their issues are, diagnosed or not, right? Thank you so much. I really enjoyed my time with you, Sherry. But before I let you go, our ending question: for those who are just stepping onto the path of recovery and for those who have been here for a while, what insight do you have for them?

Sherie Christensen: I would say there's hope. It doesn't matter how hard it is, how bad it is, how much pain you're in. How much pain your spouse is in, there's hope. As you continually and consistently work your own recovery, you will heal and you will have the life you always wanted. That doesn't necessarily mean it will be with the person you're currently with, and there is grieving that is a normal part of that experience. But 100%, I can guarantee that as you do that work in 12-step, as you have a sponsor, as you attend your groups, as you go to therapy, you can absolutely have a wonderful life.

And this is exactly where you need to be and is the path to get there.

Tara McCausland: Thank you. Thank you so much, Sherri. And thank you for the important work that you're doing in this field. Absolutely. More good therapists out there helping this along.

Sherie Christensen: So if you ever want to hear me talk a whole lot more, you can pop over to my podcast. It's Two Therapists Talking, and I do that with, with David Thompson. You can check that out if you're like, I just want to hear her talk for so much longer.

Tara McCausland: And we will— we can link that in the show notes as well as link to your website. So, again, thank you so much for being here. For sure.

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