How Faith Leaders Can Support Couples Affected By Sexual Addiction & Betrayal Trauma w/ Matthew and Joanna Raabsmith

Narrator: This is Pathway to Recovery, an SA Lifeline Foundation podcast featuring hosts Tara McCausland, who is the SA Lifeline Executive Director, and Justin B., a sex addict living in long-term recovery. We have conversations with experts and individuals who understand the pathway to healing from sexual addiction and betrayal trauma because we believe that recovering individuals leads to the healing of families. Welcome Pathway to Recovery listeners.

Tara McCausland: So glad you're here. I wanted to share 2 exciting events we have coming up in April. First, we have our benefit dinner, our SA Lifeline Foundation fundraising event, April 12th in Salt Lake City, Utah. And we hope that you'll join us. We're very excited to feature keynote speaker Joseph Grenny, who is a 4-time New York Times bestselling author. Some of you may know one of his books, Crucial Conversations, and he's a co-founder of many transformative peer-run communities.

So again, we hope you'll join us in Salt Lake City, April 12th for this fundraising event. You can go to salifeline.org under the events tab to secure your spot. Also, we're super excited for our first-ever SAL 12-step in-person conference, which is April 26th, 2025. at Utah Valley University in Orem, Utah. And you may be scratching your head saying, wait, SA Lifeline has had lots of conferences. But again, there is a difference between SA Lifeline and SAL 12-Step.

Our SA Lifeline events are for the general public, but the SAL 12-Step conference is for those who are participating in our SAL 12-Step program. And so it's going to be all things 12-Step that's going to be discussed, and it'll be people from within SAL 12-Step that will be sharing their strength, hope, and experience. So we hope that you'll come. Join us on April 26th in Orem, Utah. You won't wanna miss that opportunity to gather and hear from other SAL 12-step members and leadership.

Be sure to watch for registration on sal12step.org, which should be available in the next few weeks. Without further ado, I want to introduce our wonderful guests for this episode. Matthew and Joanna Rabsmith are clinicians, speakers, and authors with over 20 years of combined experience in counseling, coaching and guiding couples toward healing and transformation. Their mission is to help couples navigate the complexities of relational challenges, particularly in the aftermath of sexual addiction and betrayal trauma, fostering deep restoration and growth.

Matthew is a professional certified coach with a background in pastoral leadership, while Joanna is a licensed marriage and family therapist, EMDR practitioner, and certified clinical partner specialist through APSATS. Both hold Master of Divinity degrees and have served together on multiple church leadership teams. Currently, they co-lead their private practice, the Rabsmith Team, where they specialize in helping couples rebuild connection, trust, and intimacy. Now to our episode. Welcome to the Pathway to Recovery Podcast. I'm your host, Tara McCausland, and I'm so pleased to have here with me Matthew and Joanna Rabsmith.

Welcome.

Joanna Raabsmith: So glad to be here.

Tara McCausland: Yeah, I had to pause, make sure I got that last name right. It can be tricky. So excited to meet the two of you. I know that our listeners are going to be very eager to hear what you have to say. This organization, we are a non-denominational but God-centered organization. And so we have people listening that are from a variety of faith traditions, but many people come to us with a faith background and a faith community.

And I know have had experiences, some of them good, many of them not, in their churches with their faith leaders. And so for those who are listening, whether or not you are a part of a faith community, whether or not maybe you serve in your church community, we hope that you'll find value here. But we know that the church can be a great support, but sometimes we need to give better information. But before we dive into some of that, I'm curious if you can just tell our listeners a little bit about you.

What brings you to the world of sexual addiction and betrayal trauma?

Matthew Raabsmith: An interesting word, brings, right? I think probably I would have described it a few years ago as drug. We're in this work mainly because this was our experience. And I brought in a history of decade-plus-long sexual addiction into our relationship. It was something I, I hinted about to Joanna, but really kept hidden. Never really truly ever explained to her what that actually was and what that looked like. And for the first 3 years of our marriage, that, that addiction was just running and going and really eating away at everything that I wanted to be as a husband, everything we wanted to be as a couple.

And we were really lucky because we were in a place where we started to hear some resources about sexual addiction and recovery. We actually heard a testimony from a pastor who had gotten help, and we were in seminary to become pastors at the time. And Joanna brought home this testimony. And so bravely at August 1st, 2013, it's my sobriety date. It's our D-Day. And she said, is this what you're struggling with? And I said, yes. And that really began a, a journey now more than 10 years that we've been on, both of, of just recovery, but also restoration and renewal.

And so we got into the work because we had done so much of the work ourselves. Yeah. We knew that we just couldn't keep it to ourselves. We wanted it to be really integrated. in our ministry, in our professional work, in everything we did.

Joanna Raabsmith: Yeah, and I think we've all— we've always had a heart for couples, even before recovery. And in going through recovery, God really started calling us into that particular niche of ministering to couples going through this. We started our journey into freedom, healing, reconciliation because of someone else's testimony. And so we really felt a pull to, to be voices to speak up, to share our testimony, to bring healing to others as well. And we obviously have a deep passion for the connection to the church around this, right?

Being both, we've both worked inside of the church. Now we're working outside of the church through private practice, counseling, coaching, therapy with couples. But just feel such a heart that the church serves a vital role in the healing journey, or can serve a vital role in the healing journey of people if they are properly equipped. And that's definitely a heart, a passion And we, in our own story, have experienced the good side of that and the more challenging side of that in churches as well.

So we know firsthand what that is like too.

Tara McCausland: I love that you've taken your hard things, your pain, and you're making something beautiful out of it and serving those around you. So I'm thrilled again to hear what you have to share with us because I, I know this is a tricky subject and I know, and for those faith leaders actually that I hope will listen, We want first to express our gratitude for the efforts that you are making. And because I know for so many people in my faith tradition, it's a complete lay ministry and the people that are called to certain positions, they didn't ask for it.

And they may not have any background in, in certain things, like certainly not going to be counselors. And so— Absolutely. We want you to be compassionate with yourself and also invite you to be open-minded. Let's lead out with this question. What are some of the common mistakes churches make when supporting individuals struggling with sexual addiction? We'll start there.

Matthew Raabsmith: Yeah, and appreciate that. And I'll reiterate what you said. I think we do want to name, like, churches are doing a lot and there are a lot of communities, pastors, leaders, elders that are really wanting to continue to further this field. That being said, it's still in some ways a really new developing field, even within the field of psychology. in the field of therapy, these are still developing resources. And so I get that the church is a little bit like, I'm not quite sure how we handle this.

I think some of the 2 big common mistakes that we see churches falling into is one, that there's just this really easy temptation to see this as a moral or kind of sin issue, right? That this is just something that someone is not supposed to do, like we're commanded, right, in scripture, but they do. And so we just need to ask them to not do it. And then it's that simple. And I think that as we've been in this field for so long, and so this is common knowledge to us, but we're surprised when we're in churches and we've been invited to talk and share how many people don't realize the addictive nature and how addiction really expands beyond just moralism, right?

It's not just a spiritual issue. It's usually a mental issue, a physical issue. Yeah. An emotional issue. There's usually trauma involved. And so I think one of the mistakes that the churches make is seeing it as this kind of isolated issue that if I just pray or if I just want it to stop, it will stop. And I think for my own journey, I wanted sex addiction out of my life for years. I, and I remember going to mentors.

I shared very rarely, but I would share with people and there was very little help. It was, it's like getting angry. If you don't want to be angry, right? You just, you give it to God. And I think Realizing that the picture is so much bigger than that. And that many people who are struggling with sexual addiction are usually struggling with some significant underlying issues like trauma, potentially their own sexual abuse as a child or early exposure to pornography before the brain is ready to handle it.

And so they're overcoming a lot. And I think if the church can understand that, they will understand how the treatment of that, how we support people has to look totally different. It's probably not going to be a, one-off counseling session with a pastor to really resolve this issue. And so really understanding that for churches, I think, is key. Yeah.

Joanna Raabsmith: I think another issue is our kind of problem is when we see it as an isolated issue. It was, as we began our recovery journey, there were so many resources for Matthew and what he was going through, both outside and inside the church, very little for the partner on the other side of that addiction and almost nothing for the couple. And what we begin to see is all these men being convicted and maybe going to support groups, understanding better what's going on, and then wanting to come back home and dump that all on their wife.

And then she's left sitting there in trauma, oftentimes having no idea what was going on, and there's no support, no resources for her. And so one of the mistakes is not seeing it as a systemic issue and having structures, ministry support in place for the other people that addiction or sexual acting out is going to impact.

Matthew Raabsmith: Yeah, and I think people who've been in an addictive family system, they understand, right, the addiction in both active addiction and even recovery, right? It has an impact on the addict. It has an impact on the intimate partner and the children. And so all of these, right, all of these individuals and systems are really getting upset even in recovery, right? It's a lot of turmoil even in recovery. And so churches need to understand that because like we said, we've seen a lot of really well-meaning churches.

We actually knew a church that they did a big promotion, they started a huge men's program. Yes. And then they had wife after wife calling the church and saying, what do you have for me? And the church was like, we, we didn't think about that. Yeah. We didn't think about that greater impact. So I think that is really key.

Tara McCausland: You covered so much there and I love it. So I'm going to break that down for a second. First of all, I love that you touched on, this is not about moral deprivation. Like some of the best people I know dealt with this issue, deal with this issue. And you very often hear my, you wouldn't believe that my husband has this problem. He's the nicest guy, right? Absolutely. Said the same thing of my father. He was a very religious and even spiritual man.

And yet addiction doesn't care who you are. If we try and pray this away, it's like trying to pray cancer away. Exactly. Yeah. We're just, just not going to be successful. And I appreciated that you also had mentioned, Matthew, that this is a symptom of much deeper issues. And we know that trauma on both sides is happening and deeply rooted for people that are dealing with addictive patterns. And I'll also say, as you guys put, this is a systemic issue, but it's not a marriage issue.

Exactly. And I think that a lot of faith leaders are like, oh, husband's having some challenges. And sometimes he complains about wife and wife comes and he starts saying, what can you do for your husband? Right? Can you essentially fix him? So I know we'll get into that. Then I'm going to just direct our listeners to the show notes. So I'm going to put a link for our 9 best practices for faith leaders that we developed this last year.

So I'll be done and we'll keep going, but I loved everything you said there and I just wanted to validate and reiterate. Okay. So let's talk then, cause you touched on this, but what are some of the common mistakes that churches are making then when they're supporting individuals that have been impacted and they are potentially dealing with betrayal trauma? So tell us a little bit about that.

Joanna Raabsmith: Yeah, I think part of it is not being educated. I think more than any other aspect, I think it's so important to be educated In the experience of the partner. Unless you have been through that experience, it is very difficult to understand what that is like. And I think the lack of understanding has led people to maybe shy away from those who have been hurt by betrayal because they don't feel equipped to support. And I know so many partners feel incredibly isolated as they are going through that traumatic experience.

And even if it doesn't create trauma, it's still a traumatic experience, right? And so I tell all my partners that I see women who lose husbands, the church comes around and supports and there's meal trains. And, but I have yet to hear one of my clients say, yes, the church organized a meal train for me when they heard my husband had betrayed me, right? There's just a very different level of support that's out there right now.

So I think not shying away, not being uncomfortable, and really pushing in, educating, seeking to understand that Yeah. Is such a huge starting place. And for those partners I work with where they're pastors, they don't know everything, but they're open. They're open and they invite that wife to share her story. Even that is so healing for them to know that they have a safe place where their story will be received, their experience will be received and heard in a nonjudgmental way.

And then equipping, I think, larger support communities of groups or things like that, like we mentioned earlier, is so important. Having some type of structure there, a net ready to catch them and support them whenever it is that they find out, right? A lot of women call that their D-Day when they first discover something is going on in their marriage that they didn't know about.

Matthew Raabsmith: Yeah, and I think that as a pastor myself, I was a youth and family pastor for close to 15 years, and I think just recognizing That I understand the level of expectation and the amount of work that is usually laid on either lay leaders or pastoral staff, even professionally. And it's a lot. And I think that recognizing the need to invite other voices and experts in, I think that one of the mistakes I know I made as a pastor was thinking that I needed to be the expert on everything.

And then recognizing now as I'm out of the ministry, that was impossible. And so I think, I think one of the things that churches can do really well to support partners is to recognize like there are going to be people who really understand this issue, both from a personal level and a professional level, and we can lean on them and then take the burden off of the pastor to be that kind of shepherd for every issue at every time and the expert on everything.

And I think that, and some of that's the way I think we've set up our churches, right? That we have these leaders and they're supposed to do everything. for us rather than understanding they're really there to shepherd and to oversee and then to equip, to bring in, to empower, to give voice to others who might be able to say, hey, let me share what this experience is because it may not be an experience that you can necessarily touch into your own journey.

And so I think that's another way that churches can really take some big steps forward. Yeah. Yeah.

Tara McCausland: So good. I'm going to touch on 2 things here. So You said it so well, Joanna. When you're betrayed, you're not getting casseroles and flowers at your door. This issue is so isolating, and I think sometimes people miss the shame that a lot of betrayed partners feel. And so they too, like the person suffering from addiction, they want to pull in and isolate. And we know that's just the opposite of what we need to be doing, especially in our faith community.

We're not meant to do this alone. No. Right. Absolutely. And I think that's one of the greatest challenges is fostering this kind of openness where we can go to church and be like, hey, I am dealing with this really messy stuff, whether it be sexual addiction, betrayal trauma, or my kids on heroin, or you fill in the blank, but being able to foster that warm, accepting climate where we can take down the facade of perfection, just be real.

And then what you had said, Matthew, um, I don't know where we get this, especially in a lay ministry, why we think we have to be it all and do it all and know it all. But that was one of the first pieces of our 9 best practices is that for leaders, they need to see themselves not as the fix-it-all, but as just the first responder, right? Like a paramedic. Yeah. Because for a lot of people, they, their first contact when this all goes down is their faith leader.

And for the faith leader to be able to be like, to maintain that role as the spiritual support, but then say, hey, I know about these resources. Let's get you some professional help and let go of the responsibility for fixing this issue. They're a part of the team, but they are not the team. Yeah.

Matthew Raabsmith: One of the best lessons I remembered in seminary was they said, if you survey pastors, When they read a biblical story, especially in the Gospels, they'll say, which character do you identify with? And pastors often, and I don't think this is necessarily a negative thing, but they just naturally identify as Jesus. And they said, if you identify as Jesus, then you're responsible. Yeah, you're going to get stuck in that responsible for everyone role. And what if we identified ourselves as one of the 12 disciples, remembering that my— I might have a really key role in the movement of the gospel, but I'm also one of many.

I am one of many who are serving under the King. And so I think like I have to remind me because that was it, right? I would read the script. I need to be like Jesus, right? I've got to care for, I've got to care for all these people rather than recognizing I'm one of a great team. And even if I'm the only lay leader over this community or the kind of senior pastor, there's still that network that I can really lean into and bring in.

Joanna Raabsmith: So I think what you mentioned, another thing that we think is so important for churches is to have a list of resources. You don't have to provide everything this person or this couple needs for their healing journey. You are one piece in a cog. They need a lot of different ways of support. And you might be the first touchpoint though, if you already have safety and relationship with them. And so your role is so vitally important to be able to point them in the right direction.

That was one of the biggest pieces in our healing journey. Matthew mentioned in one of my very first class in my MFT grad program was called Shame and Guilt. It's a 2-week intensive. Yeah. And this anonymous pastor came and shared his journey of recovery. And as he was sharing his testimony, he was listing all the resources he used, the essay groups he went to, the intensive he went to, where they went for couples. And I'm like writing it down furiously because I can just tell in my gut, I'm like, I think I need to know this.

And so as soon as D-Day happened, discovery happened, we had a path, we had a plan, and that was so Securing, right? It created so much hope even in the midst of that, in that darkness. And so I think that is such a gift that churches could be able to offer individuals or couples when they are in the midst of this crisis, to go, there is a way out, and here are some of the safe resources that we have vetted, that we have relationships with, and we can point you in that direction.

Tara McCausland: Perfect. Before we move beyond the betrayed partner I wanted to ask you a follow-up question, Joanna, because I think, again, a big part of faith leaders being able to do this well is to have a basic understanding of what it is the partner is experiencing. And what does betrayal trauma look like? And how does it manifest? Because sometimes betrayed partner comes in the office looking and sounding like a crazy person.

Joanna Raabsmith: Absolutely. Yeah. So we've actually had conversations with Faith leaders of our clients who are going, what is going on? We feel like we are missing something because they are, because they haven't been trained in cycles of abuse or cycles of addiction. And so what comes into their office is very confusing. And like you said, oftentimes that partner, because she is in trauma, is experiencing things physically, emotionally, and expressing them in ways that can look crazy, in ways that feel crazy to her, right?

Most of the clients I work with go, I don't know who I am anymore. I have never gotten angry. I have never yelled. I have never thrown dishes at the wall, right? And all of a sudden I can't stop myself. It's happening, right? And they are having a traumatic response in their body. And so if you do any reading on PTSD, things like that, and you look at those symptoms, a lot of partners are actually experiencing those post-traumatic stress disorder symptoms.

And so they controlling their spouse. And so understanding that as a safety-seeking behavior rather than a controlling behavior is so important, right? Because sometimes the focus can then shift to that partner who's quote unquote controlling rather than going, wait, why is this traumatized person seeking safety so aggressively? What's going on in their environment that is so traumatizing and so damaging?

Narrator: That's what we need to focus on.

Joanna Raabsmith: Yeah, and I think that's such a great point. And, and there can be intrusive thoughts coming in. There can be physical symptoms, loss of appetite, loss of weight. There can be depression, increased anxiety, all sorts of things that partner can be experiencing because of that trauma. And so being able to understand that is all normal, so you can appropriately identify the root cause of what's going on when you're seeing that in the room is so important.

Rather than focusing on the symptoms, That maybe you're seeing expressed on the outside go, why are those symptoms there? And so amazingly healing if you can even like just know enough to communicate to that partner what you're experiencing is normal, right? Mm-hmm. They need to hear that because they feel crazy, they feel out of control, they feel scared. And to have someone come alongside and validate This is normal. This makes sense. And you don't have to be stuck in that place.

We have resources. We have help is so empowering.

Tara McCausland: Yeah. That's a great explanation. I don't know if we'll get here, but I feel like I wanted to pull back as well and talk a little bit about the person that's dealing with the addictive behavior first comes to the office of a faith leader. I wonder, Matthew, if you could share some immediate dos and don'ts as far as how to handle this person, because I know we can either go into a shame spiral as an individual because of things that the faith leader says, or there may be too much compassion, not enough accountability.

Tell us about that, Matthew. Hopefully that's not too open-ended of a question.

Matthew Raabsmith: Yeah, no, I mean, that's— it is because those moments happen. I think this is— these things happen, and, and I think it's wonderful. Joanna was saying that's a testimony to people feeling safe in their faith communities with their faith leaders and wanting to come to them as a resource for help. And when that happens, I think just recognizing as a faith leader that, kind of like I said before, I, this is not going to get resolved in this conversation.

Really what we're trying to do, like Joanna said, is I think lay the groundwork. In some ways it's very similar to the betrayed partner. I think one, normalizing it, and normalizing it is not excusing it. It's just recognizing what a challenging issue this is for a person. Yeah. We live in a highly sexualized world. Most men are exposed to sexual images, pornography, and content well before they're able to— their brain is developed to handle it, understand it, and then turn and then decide whether this is healthy sexuality or not.

And I think that one of the things that pastors can do is remember that and remember to say, I get it. I get why you have had a really hard time discerning between what you want and what you're, what you end up doing. I think normalizing that, and then like Joanna said, and also letting them know it does not have to be this way. When she came home with that list of resources and the story of someone who made it, that was when the light went off in my head.

We had been at a church about 2 months earlier, and I felt, I actually had felt God saying, you need to, you have to finally give this up. You have to name this. But I felt like I couldn't get out of my seat and go down forward and have someone pray over it because I didn't know what, what to do next. I knew that if I confessed it, there was no next step. And so one of the things that was so helpful when Joanna came in and she said, here's this story, but here's this journey, right, of true restoration.

I was like, okay. That made letting go, right? That made that kind of confessional moment so much easier. And I think that's really key is being able to normalize it, but also really being able to talk about the way forward.

Tara McCausland: I had a follow-up question for you, Matthew, 'cause I don't wanna forget this. I know that sometimes when individuals come in and confession is an important part of the change process, and we hope that full disclosure with a qualified therapist is also happening, but a lot of faith traditions believe in this process of repentance, and that includes getting a full history. of the acting out behaviors, right? So that the faith leader knows what it is we're dealing with, but also what they really need to work through and repent of.

What suggestions do you make to faith leaders as they're trying to first invite that? Because it may not come out in one session or two.

Matthew Raabsmith: And I think one, knowing good reasons for resources for doing that. And there are both professional and non-professional. I think 12-step programs, Uh, the, one of the first steps, one of the common practices in the first steps is to do something similar. I'm going to really lay it out all on the table. Right. And that was huge for my journey. And I think one of the reasons that I was able to really find a sense of freedom, because I was challenged to take a look at the real picture.

For most of my life, I had compartmentalized my sexual acting out. It was this small thing in the back that I didn't think had infected everything else. And when I actually took the time to write it down, it was interesting. It wasn't a shame-inducing event. I think it was a really conviction-inducing event. And it really caused me to take a sober look at what I had been doing and how far I had moved from my core values.

And I think that's another thing that I love to remind pastors. When you meet someone who is struggling with sexual addiction, if you get to know them enough, you will see that the sexual addiction is so far from who they are really As a person. They're usually really good men, good women. They are good people. And their behavior has just moved so far from that. And that full disclosure allows them to see that, but it also allows them to see the way forward, right?

How I bring that integrity back into my life. Now, doing a full disclosure usually takes some work. It usually requires a few things. And one of the things it usually requires is someone who understands sexual addiction. Yeah. Because if you just ask me 15 years ago before I started recovery what my problem was with pornography was, I could throw out some numbers and some things, right? But it's usually helpful to have somebody who gets it. And I think this is why 12-step groups, programs are so helpful, 'cause addicts know addicts.

And they know the truth, right? They know when it's not all on the level. And that's why being connected as a church to those communities, to those resources and ministries, I think is so helpful because if you don't have an addict past, it's going to be hard to draw out sometimes the truth from an addict. And we see this with partners a lot, right? They have a really hard time understanding their spouse as an addict. And they're trying to bring out that recovery in their partners.

That's going to be really hard if you've not been down that journey or you've not been trained to walk someone down that journey. So I think as a pastor recognizing this is probably a good chance to maybe hand some of this work over. Yeah. to either a program or a professional. But then as a pastor, what I can do is then I can come back in. And what I think is really powerful is as a pastor, what I can do for this person is I can sit with them.

I can let them share their testimony, their full disclosure with me, and I can be one of the first people to pronounce over them, I still see you. Hmm. What was so amazingly transformative about my first full disclosure to a group of men in an intensive was that I was honest, but I was also loved in the process. Those men in the room were able to look at me and we, they looked me in the eye and said, I still see the good man that you are.

Right. And that's, I think, a role a pastor can play. And then that allows them to hold them accountable, right? Because I see who you are. I know this is not what you want in your life anymore. Yeah. I have to imagine you're ready to let this go. And that's, I think, where that transformation really starts to take place.

Tara McCausland: Yeah. Oh, so good, Matthew. And I appreciate you bringing up that group and community, 12-step. We, we hope that you're finding supportive community. We cannot do this work in isolation. And so for the faith leader to draw on that support as they're helping that individual work through these issues, it's going to be beneficial for both parties for sure. And so you're gonna have lots of opportunities. that person that is dealing with the addiction to get it out.

And it will be freeing, but it will, it's scary. And you're right, it's the faith leader's opportunity to express compassion and love and that the God of your understanding still loves you. We talk about God of our understanding to cover all of our bases here, right? Amen. You are still loved. You are still worthy of love. And that's so important. So thank you for bringing that up. So good. So let's move then to talking about the common mistakes churches make when they're supporting the couple This gets really hairy because we know it's not a marriage issue.

Yeah, and sometimes it becomes. Okay, a little marriage counseling in the faith leader's office, and especially early on when there are safety issues that need to be addressed and we need safety and stabilization. Tell us, where do we even start there?

Joanna Raabsmith: One of the most important pieces to understand is exactly what you said. This is not a marriage issue. So in the beginning, the work, the support needs to be very individualized usually for the husband and the wife. And a lot of churches do that well. But what can happen is those ministries supporting kind of the betrayal trauma side and the addiction side, they're very siloed and, and very disconnected from each other. And where we've seen it do a lot of damage to couples and even a lot of damage in the actual church in between ministries is when there's one thing being told to the husband then you send them home, and man, that— those relationship issues that are there also just escalate and it gets worse.

And so being able to have a very— even though those may be separate ministries supporting different people, having a lot of integration at that top level of the ministry, making sure that there is shared understandings of the system and what's going on between the addiction, between the marriage, between the children, and the ministry. Yeah. between the traumatized partner and how we talk about that, kind of that crossover there. I think that is such a vital starting place for churches to understand.

Matthew Raabsmith: And know that they may not always talk about the sex addiction as the issue. We have had couples come into our office and work with us professionally for months before the issue of sexual addiction and pornography comes up. And so, and so as a pastor—

Joanna Raabsmith: And then we have to hit the brakes and go, okay guys, we Scratch all of that. We're starting for real now.

Matthew Raabsmith: As a pastor, you may have someone coming in saying, we have communication issues, or we're having sexual issues, or we're having parenting issues. And so I think just being, recognizing that fact, we like to say that when a couple comes in with betrayal, and especially if they've been married for any length of time, they're usually dealing with a heart attack and cancer. The heart attack is the betrayal. It's the addiction. And if you do not deal with that first and you do not deal with it immediately, they will die on the table.

Right? So if you start talking about, let's talk about your communication and let's talk about what your views are on money and parenting and scheduling, that couple can't make it. And what's true is that even if they address some of the kind of addiction issues, they probably have common couple issues. They probably do have communication issues. They probably infight about money and sex. And so recognizing we're going to have to go back. And do chemo and do all the long-term work that a cancer process would look like.

And I think what happens with pastors often, and with anyone who's supporting a couple, because you could be someone a couple just reaches out to, someone that they trust, and they start telling you about their struggles, recognizing like, there's a lot that's gonna need to happen. We need to focus on the things that are gonna do the most damage first, right? And once there is that kind of understanding that there is either some type of destructive sexuality, potentially sexual addiction, That we need to address that first.

And Joanna said, that's a really separate addressing. Um, the couple's still married. They're usually often living together, which is fine, right? They're still trying to figure out how to be a team in that, but the work is really separated until that, that really individual healing process can occur. So the relational healing process can then begin.

Tara McCausland: Yeah. I love that. We've got a heart attack and cancer. And we gotta address the heart attack first. That makes so much sense. Yeah. I wonder, because we know that so many couples are dealing with this. I don't know what the stats are on that, but the Wheatley Institute out of BYU did a study just on pornography. I don't know if they were looking at other problematic sexual behaviors, but pornography itself was 1 in 5 couples were dealing with this issue.

And I thought, that seems a little low to me. Absolutely. It is.

Matthew Raabsmith: 1 in 5 couples have named it.

Tara McCausland: Exactly. We're brave enough to say, but I think it, and you tell me your thoughts on this because we don't like to make assumptions, but knowing that this is something that's so pervasive in our culture, in our society, do you even suggest to faith leaders to just ask the question, like, is this something that's been a part of your relationship? Without the couple bringing it up in some way. Absolutely.

Joanna Raabsmith: Yeah, we do. I don't know if you've heard of Prepare and Enrich. It's an assessment that you do for couples. Often it's a premarital assessment or for couples who want to enrich their marriage along the way, right? And so that, that's absolutely one of the questions, right? And it's, do you view pornography? And then does your spouse view pornography? And it's really interesting when you get different answers. Man, so much information about what's going on in the relationship just with those 2 questions and having them answer it separately.

And so that I would— I'd say you always, whenever you're working with a couple on any issues, it's important to ask about that and their sexual relationship because those are often things they feel very uncomfortable bringing up just because of the taboos around talking about those things in our culture, especially in our churches. And they feel uncomfortable, right? So you have to normalize it. You have to let them know. Right. This is an open conversation. This is a safe place to talk about that, right?

And oftentimes it won't come up unless you initiate that. And so it's really important that you're comfortable talking about it, initiating it. So that may even need to be a first starting place. Hmm.

Tara McCausland: I like this idea of an assessment. Even being able to put it on paper feels a little less scary, I think, for some couples.

Joanna Raabsmith: It can be tricky if you have a couple in there we know from personal experience, right? Early on, right? You're asking for honesty, but you don't know if this spouse knows the honest truth. Right. So you're putting them in a position to either be dishonest or potentially traumatize their spouse. So it does get a little tricky, right? So you have to be a little bit sensitive about that. Yeah. But I think that's a good question. what the question is that you're asking, how you ask it, and then how you follow up depending on what answers you're getting, if that kind of makes sense.

Tara McCausland: Yeah, no, that's a really good point, and I hadn't even considered that. So for our faith leaders who are listening, yeah, thinking through how do you address this without putting this couple in a situation where they've come to you with another problem. Maybe there is some— maybe they're being brave and talking about some of their sexual issues, but It's like, how can we bring this up so that we're most likely to get the truth and not drop a bomb on a partner?

Exactly. Exactly. Okay. Let's get into, you talk about the 3 phases of rebuilding relational intimacy after betrayal. And I think, I'm sure this would be helpful for faith leaders to hear and just the general audience. What are those 3 phases?

Matthew Raabsmith: Yeah, I think simply phase 1 is recovery. We call the recovery phase, and this is the phase most people are familiar with. And it is that phase really about individual healing. If I am struggling with the addiction, this is the phase in which I'm dealing with that addiction. I'm dealing with maybe my propensity to lie or deceive and to hide. I'm dealing with those underlying issues that we talked about, right? Maybe that's childhood trauma. Maybe that's exposure.

Maybe that is some type of sexual abuse that I went through and I am trying to recover that integrity. I'm trying to rebuild who my, what my core values are and how I operate, because without that, it's the chaos, right? So outside of recovery, even if there's disclosure, right, disclosure does not create safety. It will create awareness, right? It's gonna create some information, but it doesn't create safety. And so recovery is how I really think about restoring honesty, and safety into the relationship by really becoming a person of integrity as the addict.

Joanna Raabsmith: Yes. And so the next stage is after that we call kind of restoration. So this is when there's that honesty, that safety has really been rebuilt for each individual, even for the relationship, and they're ready to start pushing into trust. This is when they're ready to start pushing back into the relationship. Rebuilding trust, maybe beginning the beginning stages of a forgiveness process, starting to be able to think about ourselves as a team again. What does that look like?

Maybe there's some level of what we would call couples grieving as they are coming in together and starting to do more of that work together to really restore the damage that's been done to that relationship.

Matthew Raabsmith: And the third phase is the renewal phase. This is the phase. It's actually a really fun phase. This is the phase where the couple really gets to reimagine who they are and what they want to be. We have a group program that we developed called Renewing Us, and it's for couples that are, that have been through betrayal and been through infidelity and addiction. And they recognize if we're going to go through all that work of recovery and restoration, it better be worth it.

And we, we, it's been amazing. We get these couples that come to us and they're like, we want to be really great. Which we love because that's what we went through. I think we wanted a great marriage. We didn't want to survive. We wanted to thrive. And so that third phase is where the couple really gets to reimagine who they are and really reimagine their purpose. So many couples who've been through this end up in some type of ministry or leadership.

Sometimes they go into the professional work like we have. And I, and that's wonderful. And so we really We love supporting couples through all these 3 phases because they're really important and they're different. And sometimes in recovery, I think a lot of couples, all they know about is that first phase, right? We're just get out of the chaos. They're not really aware of some of those amazing later stages that really give them the life, the relationships, right?

The kind of day-to-day interactions they've always wanted.

Joanna Raabsmith: That's what we're really passionate about is helping couples understand that full journey. what that can look like. And so we actually detail that in the kind of, we call it the intimacy pyramid we developed with Dan Drake. And so that's that couple's healing journey. And so we write in a lot more detail in our book, Building True Intimacy, about those different levels, how to build them, what it looks like, all of those things.

Tara McCausland: First of all, I love the hope that I hear, because I think for a lot of people, like I've seen it in observing my parents and others, like I know that you can be on the other side of this with a happier, healthier, more thriving relationship. And certainly before everything went down, but my parents are genuinely happy. They've been married for over 50 years and doing so well. Oh. And so we know that it can happen, but we need sometimes just the hopeful stories to keep us moving because there is a lot of, there are a lot of ups and downs in recovery work and we might take A couple of steps forward and one step back if we're not really working it right.

But you had talked a little bit about in the first phase that was just dealing with the initial, like the addiction, the trauma, and then in the second phase, working toward trust. And this is a huge thing that I think oftentimes faith leaders want to rush. Mm-hmm. So talk to me about giving space for betrayed partners and members of the family, including children. Yeah. To pace themselves as they're working toward forgiveness and trust.

Matthew Raabsmith: Yeah, absolutely. And it is hard because when there isn't full trust in the relationship, it can feel really scary. It can. And as somebody who betrayed the trust of our relationship, really destroyed it, and knew that it wasn't going to be just given back overnight, that was scary for me. I'm sure it was scary for our friends, for people who knew us and saw some of the disconnect in our relationship. And so it's really It's tempting for a lot of people on the outside to want to push that pressure on the person who's been hurt to say, hey, let's move forward.

And I think just recognizing when a betrayed spouse goes and meets with a counselor or joins a support group, they are practicing forgiveness and they're moving forward. They're rebuilding trust in doing that. When they give space for their spouse to go to a 2-week intensive and to get healing, to go to a 12-step group every night and to leave that betrayed partner at home taking care of the kids, That's, that is the work of restoring trust and that's the work of forgiveness that's actually taking place.

And so I think recognizing that, being able to name that, that's happening. And if it's, and if maybe it's not, right, maybe that betrayed partner is struggling with it, recognizing that's a part of the process too, right? That safety seeking, trying to figure it out. Because yeah, absolutely. The moment you put pressure on a person to forgive, you will cut off the artery, right? The kind of the lifeblood of that forgiveness process. Yeah.

Joanna Raabsmith: Well, and it's also good to remember that if there is pressure being put on someone to trust or forgive, it's coming out of the other person's pain. That's right. The other person's discomfort with the reality of what they are seeing or experiencing. If, and this is what we tell, uh, the men we work with in recovery so often, your job is to be trustworthy. It's not to be trusted. But they think it's to be trusted. So I gotta get this person here to trust me so I know I'm doing, doing my job right.

And so that's when recovery is more of a performance or a control. That's what we would call it, right? This coping behavior out of my own pain and discomfort. Rather than if I go, wait, my role is to show up trustworthy. Guess what? I have 100% control over that. And it doesn't depend on my partner trusting me. It doesn't depend on their healing process or how quickly that is going, right? Yeah. And so all of a sudden I get to let go of the outcome and I get to focus on my role.

Tara McCausland: Yeah. Forgiveness is a gift that we can give ourselves, right? Eventually. But trust needs to be built and it's going to be drop by drop. And I really like how you put that. You've got to give people time and space for that. But I believe it will come as you are working to be trustworthy. That's going to be a natural outgrowth, right? 100%.

Matthew Raabsmith: I tell the guys I work with, you can determine the time, the timeline in terms of how long you extend it. The more pressure you put, the more expectation you put on that person, you're just drawing that timeline out. So if you'd like that trust to be kept away for a long time, just put pressure after pressure.

Tara McCausland: That's funny. This last question here, how can the church partner with or support individuals and couples in the 3 phases then? Because you talked about these 3 phases. What might that look like for a faith leader?

Joanna Raabsmith: Yeah, I think in the beginning phase, having someone there who can just hold the pain of both people, that you have a place for them to go to share, there'll be nonjudgmental, that will have resources that can point them to, right? I think of, again, oftentimes couples don't know where to go, what to do, and that, that church or that faith leader is their first point of contact, that EMT, right? And so being prepared to hold the pain, to sit and grieve with them, and then empower them to begin healing, right?

I think that is so powerful. And then if possible, if your church has the resources to have some of those early community ministries of kind of support groups of other people who are going through that journey, right? Because I think another important piece early on is to know I am not alone. It helps break down the break down the shame that can really hinder the healing of those people and really provide them again, that really, that safe space to get started in community.

Matthew Raabsmith: And then that middle space, that restoration space, I think just a thing that the church can do is, as you mentioned, just remembering that the trust rebuilding process, it's a long process. It's not usually linear, right? It's messy. There's some movements forward, some movements back. So I think just maintaining that encouragement for the couple, helping to normalize, I think for an addict that struggled, hey, I know you You want to be trusted right now. Let's focus on your trustworthiness and remember that the trust will take care of itself over time.

Let's really hone on that and creating that space, not feeling the need to rush couples through the process to feel like this has to happen on this timeline and really being able to normalize that.

Joanna Raabsmith: And I think the last one for renewal, this one's really exciting for churches. I think churches are like really equipped to come alongside a couple who's experienced this transformation and experienced this healing to really discover what is God calling us to do? What is our new purpose, right? We went through this journey for a reason. God called us together and got us through this for a reason, for a purpose. What is that? And so helping them discern what that is and even giving a voice to that purpose.

One of the amazing pieces, I don't know if we've shared Kind of the end of that story of that pastor coming, this anonymous pastor coming to this class, sharing the story, that testimony really being the first instigator of our transformation journey. 5 years later, we found ourselves in a new city working at a church, trying to figure out what God is calling us to do with our story. And we got connected to a pastor of another church who wanted to start a marriage and recovery ministry.

Someone had mentioned our names. And Matthew began telling our early story of recovery of that pastor in my class. And that pastor said, that was my story. And Matthew thought, oh yes, you've been on this journey too, 'cause he had, we knew he had a story of recovery. He said, no, I was that pastor in your wife's class 5 years ago. Oh, wow. And so full circle, we ended up working at that church, helping them start a recovery and marriage ministry.

mentoring, guiding couples in that congregation through their story of betrayal to the point where they were on stage giving testimonies. And it's so exciting to see that healing transformative power being passed down as people are living into their calling and following their purpose.

Tara McCausland: I love that. In the 12 steps, our 12th step is giving back. And I know that's been a big part of my parents' experience. that what has helped facilitate their own healing is giving away what they've been given and sharing their story of hope. And so I love that you are doing that. And what a miracle. That's so cool. That turnaround 5 years later, I was the guy. Amazing. And that, that's the ultimate hope. There's so much joy in being able to share the hope of recovery for individuals and families.

That's why I'm here. It's not always an easy job and sometimes it can feel discouraging, but we see these examples like you that, that are making beautiful things out of your ashes. And so that's the hope. And for our faith leaders and others who have been listening, we hope this has been helpful. I know that there will be some people that are interested in connecting with you. Where's the best place for people to find you?

Matthew Raabsmith: Yeah, we'll put a— we'll actually put a link in the show notes. And one of the things they can do, we love to give resources out because resources helped us, worksheets and ways to connect. And so we created a couples connection, just a daily check-in This can be used with couples who are in recovery. Any couple actually could use this. Yeah, absolutely. And it's just a format to give them a really safe structure to share and to reflect on their day-to-day life.

We have a 30-day challenge for them because what we have found is that when couples are talking every day, just checking in on what their life was like and sharing that with their partner, it is incredibly strengthening of their relationship, but it's also really personally healing. So that's a free resource we'd love to give to your community. They can go check out the link and they'll get signed up for that and they can be a part of that.

that resource and a part of that challenge. And so we'd love for them to connect with us there.

Tara McCausland: Great. We'll make sure that gets in the show notes. And before I let you go, final question we always ask. So what would you tell a couple that's just starting this recovery journey? It can be really scary on the offset, but on the other side, for those who've been doing this work for a while, what would you tell them?

Matthew Raabsmith: I think for a couple that just comes in, we, we have this conversation a lot, and I think just being able to let them know there is a really wonderful marriage on the other side of this, that if you are willing, I just love 12-step language. Like it works if you work at it, right? If you do the work, you will have something that was worth all of it. When we started our recovery, we were very, we were struggling financially.

We were taking loans to pay for counseling. We were doing anything we could to get to the resources to help us survive. But man, the life we get to live because of what we invested and the work that we did at that time. And I would just let them know it is there if you want it. It is there. Yeah.

Joanna Raabsmith: I think for couples who've been in it a while, there, that could be a very different experience. Sometimes they've been in a while and it's been hard, right? And I would say, don't give up. We have a lot of couples who have been doing recovery for 2, 3, 5 more years and they're feeling really good. really stuck, but they didn't give up, and they keep looking for resources that fit for where they're at, and they are out there. And so I would say that encouragement of find the resources that really fit for you, fit for where you're at.

And then for those couples who are doing well and want to keep growing, I would say, first of all, just for all of the couples, guess what? The work never ends. Really? Never ends. And so kind of get really comfortable with the reality of like, we're going to be working on our relationship the rest of our life, but that work can be Joy, right? And hopefully you start experiencing that. And what we found so powerful for couples who have been doing it for a while is getting connected to other community of couples who get it.

That is such a powerful step because even if people are coming out of the individual isolation, finding groups and communities, it's still pretty rare that couples are finding community with other couples who understand that story and that experience. And that's the huge reason that we started the Renewing Us Couples Group Cohort Program. But being able to facilitate those spaces, I think it's just really exciting, really life-giving, really encouraging to keep doing the work, right? Because you're like, oh, we have to keep doing this forever.

That sounds a little tiring and exhausting. All of a sudden, when you're in a community of other couples who are really excited about that, you're like, I am re-energized. Yeah, let's do this. And I think that can be a really powerful step that just brings the energy, the life back into that process. Yeah.

Tara McCausland: So good. I've loved this. You're both delightful. I can see that it's been worth the journey. You guys are a powerful team. And again, appreciate your time today. Thank you for the great work that you're doing.

Joanna Raabsmith: So great being here. Thank you so much.

Narrator: Please give us a 5-star rating and review to help us spread the good news that healing from sexual addiction and betrayal trauma is possible. We invite individuals who are struggling to join our virtual or in-person trauma-sensitive 12-step meetings. Meeting times and locations can be found at sal12step.org. You can find quality education at salifeline.org, and we hope that you will follow us on Instagram and Facebook. SA Lifeline is a 501 nonprofit organization, and we welcome donations.

SA Lifeline. Come heal with us.