The 4 C's of Getting Unstuck After Sexual Betrayal w/ Kristin Snowden

Narrator: This is Pathway to Recovery, an SA Lifeline Foundation podcast featuring hosts Tara McCausland, who is the SA Lifeline Executive Director, and Justin B., a sex addict living in long-term recovery. We have conversations with experts and individuals who understand the pathway to healing from sexual addiction and betrayal trauma because we believe that recovering individuals leads to the healing of families.

Tara McCausland: Hello, Pathway to Recovery listeners. Before we jump into this great episode with Kristen Snowden, I wanted to make you aware of a few upcoming events. First, we have our SA Lifeline Light the Way benefit dinner featuring keynote speaker Joseph Grenny, which I'm really excited about. If you're not familiar with Joseph Grenny, he's co-author of Crucial Conversations, as well as a co-founder of some pretty tremendous peer-led communities such as the Otherside Academy. And so if you're local or even if you're not, we hope you'll come and join us for a beautiful evening with a lovely meal and an uplifting message.

That is April 12th in Salt Lake City, Utah, and you can reserve your seat at salifeline.org. Also, we're really excited about our first ever SAL 12-step conference coming up on April 26th in Orem, Utah. And again, this is all things 12-step. And so for our 12-step goers, we hope you'll block that out in your schedule and come and learn from leadership in our SAL 12-step program. Come learn and share your strength, hope, and experience with one another.

Finally, we have some new additions to our Digital Recovery Library with the marvelous Dr. Jill Manning on snooping, another with Dr. Eddie Capparucci On healing the inner child. And finally, a presentation from Raelle and Stephen Croshaw, SA Lifeline co-founders, on the Circle Models of Marriage. The Digital Recovery Library can be a boon to your recovery as well as a boon to SA Lifeline as you contribute to access this really quality education tool where we house all of our conference presentations.

And so lots to check out and don't wanna delay anymore. Let's get into the episode. Thanks for being here. Welcome to the Pathway to Recovery Podcast. I'm your host, Tara McCausland, and I'm so thrilled to have here with me Kristen Snowden. Welcome, Kristen. So fun to meet you.

Kristin Snowden: Hi, happy to be here. Thank you for having me.

Tara McCausland: I've been somewhat familiar with Kristen's work and really appreciate what she's doing in the field of betrayal trauma, sexual addiction. But I thought, as often is the case, people come to this field for a particular reason, sometimes personal, sometimes just wanting to make the world a better place. But I wondered if you could tell us a little bit about what brought you to the world of sexual addiction and betrayal trauma and treating this issue.

Kristin Snowden: Yeah, it was not a direct path. I think it's so funny. I've spent so many years in treatment and many people— well, there's many people who are like, I was made to do this work as soon as I got recovery, or a significant other of mine got recovery. I was inspired to work in addiction recovery. And I've been in it ever since. That is not my story. It was way more indirect. But I was working at a psychiatric hospital in the detox space, the unlock detox space, where we would work on 12 steps.

And but more, we were an in-between space where addicts would come in, they'd get medical detox, and we'd start coaching them on 12 steps and move them on to treatment. And so then my personal life turned upside down. Whole other detailed story, but some stuff went down in my marriage and I had to get a job that paid me more and was full-time. I live just behind the Malibu treatment world, which is the mecca of treatment. And so I'm searching for jobs and I see this addiction job come up and I'm like, okay, yeah, this sounds interesting.

And lo and behold, I end up sitting in front of Dr. Rob Weiss, who is one of the pioneers of sex addiction recovery. And he was creating the first of its kind program, which is a dual diagnosis, men's only drug and sex addiction program. So really honoring the fact that we just kept getting these clients who were fusing both substance abuse behaviors with sexual acting out behaviors, both heterosexual men, gay men, But it ran the gamut.

And he just said, I think I see something in you and I'm gonna teach you everything I know and you're gonna run a men's drug and sex addiction program. And so I very scarily walked into that role, I'll be honest. But he was an amazing mentor and I owe him a lot. And he did teach me everything and I fell in love with the work. And then eventually, because of my own personal story and because of my additional work supplementation work with the betrayed partners.

I started moving— once I left that treatment center, I started working more with the betrayed partners and in the coupleship. So repairing the coupleship story. And so, yeah, fast forward 12, 13 years now, I predominantly work with the betrayed partners. Still do some couples work, but just really love the work.

Tara McCausland: Well, thank you. Thank you for sharing that. And thank you for braving the wilderness and doing something that I'm sure, as you've described, was really scary for you. But that's pretty awesome. So today we're, as you had described, you're now really focusing more on betrayed partners and the coupleship. And we'd like, maybe if we can, to speak to both parties, but really emphasize the betrayed partner today and getting unstuck. Because I have heard many partners say, I feel trapped.

I feel like I'm not moving anywhere in my recovery. My partner, Doesn't seem to be making a lot of progress. What are my options? Maybe you can tell us a little bit about what you called the 4 C's of getting unstuck. Give us a preview and then we'll go into a little bit more depth.

Kristin Snowden: The 4 C's are choice, control, context, and connection. Yeah, I recently spoke on the subject of getting unstuck because, as you mentioned, people don't want to be stuck in this very painful, confusing state. They wanna feel like they're moving forward either towards healing or making a really big decision. Should I stay? Should I go? Is my partner going to be in recovery? Is he or she someone I'm ever going to be able to trust or make myself vulnerable to?

These are huge questions. And what I use from the 4C concept is the idea that when you are betrayed by your partner, you are indeed thrown into a state of trauma. And your body records that there has been a traumatic event. Every time it experiences these 4 things, which is a loss of control. You didn't choose to have this happen to you. It came out of nowhere. You don't get a say in it. It's happening at you and to you.

Choice, same thing, because it's someone else doing it to you and you don't know how they're going to respond and what they're going to do. You have little choice in the matter. Context, you're not really sure how many lies, how many years is this going to go on? How much money? Can you ever trust the person again? So you have no context, grabbing at the dark, and connection. There's a loss of connection. I used to be maybe a stable, emotionally stable person who just thought rationally and moved through life in a predictable way.

And now nothing about my life is predictable. I feel very disconnected with my body. I don't have control of my outbursts, my emotions, my fears. So I've lost connection with myself. And then also there's a loss of connection with your— obviously the partner that's betrayed you, but because of the nature of the extreme level of betrayal, you've also lost connection with everybody else. You're not willing to even trust another person with your story. You might not even know what the story is because there's so much lying and manipulation and gaslighting going on.

You're not even connected. with others or the community or your body in this situation. There's just so much unknown. And so I use these concepts of the 4 C's, the loss of the 4 C's, as a foundation for when every day, if you can make a behavior or a choice that is re-engaging these 4 C's, where you have choice, where you can strengthen a connection with your, either your body, your emotions, your mind, your thoughts. Or with another person, or reengage some level of control, right?

I don't have control of him or her and their recovery process, but this is how I want to show up. This is what I want to do. Or context. Sometimes people need something that seems arbitrary, like an actual timeline. Okay, I don't need to sit in purgatory for 2 years. I will give this a year and a half. If I don't see X, Y, and Z, improve or substantial movement in these things. What that is, I think that's someone bringing context back to their life.

Then I'm going to move forward in this way, or I'm going to move towards financial stability or get a job or something like that. It's just the simple ways of saying, I feel lost. Everything feels so intangible, so uncertain. When you try to focus on the 4 C's, trying to reinvite a little piece of control back into your life where it's been robbed And taken from you.

Tara McCausland: Yeah. Thank you. And maybe we'll back up a little bit. Even though we have talked quite a lot about betrayal trauma and what betrayal trauma is and how it impacts the body and the brain, I think it's always good to remind people really what that looks and feels like for the betrayed partner. So I wondered if you could just give us a little bit of an overview. what is this really looking like for a betrayed partner?

Why are they behaving in maybe ways that look and seem crazy to someone observing? Does that make sense?

Kristin Snowden: Yeah, no, let's start with the basics, which is betrayal trauma is the traumatic wiring that occurs in your brain. So you're, you don't forget, we are highly adaptive, highly learning species. And so we're constantly looking at the environment for really basic things. What do I need to do to eat, to stay alive, reproduce? Connect with my tribe. I'm not alone. I'm with a group to keep me safe, safety in numbers. But the other big thing, our autonomic nervous system is constantly running in the background saying, what's my level of threat?

How do I need to protect myself? What do I need to do? And so betrayal trauma is the traumatic wiring inside our brain every time in our brain, our body too, when we are betrayed by a trusted loved one. When we were originally told the story is that this is who we think we've married. Let's go back to what secure attachment and safety is. Our body loves predictability and consistency. Our brain is happy and content and not throwing the red flags and fire bells off if our day runs in a predictable, consistent way.

Anything veering outside of that level of predictability, um, will heighten our autonomic nervous system and get us alert and say, okay, what do I need to do here? What feels unsafe? How do I need to adjust? So this idea that someone I've exposed myself to, I've made myself very vulnerable to so much of my life, my wellbeing, my family, finances, everything, my health, my physical proximity is what is tied into the fact that there's this person and I think I know who they are and I think I know what they're doing and I think I know how to keep myself safe in their presence.

all of a sudden they knock me sideways and blindside me when I uncover information that they've been leading this double life that I had no idea that they were capable of that. So it's not just the uncovering of the leading a double life, that they were going out and, um, acting out sexually in some kind of way, whether it's, um, pornography use, having affairs, paid sex, substance abuse, abusing substances. spending a ton of money in this process.

Those are the, some of the ways that we uncover betrayal. But it's also this idea that they came home every day while leading this double life and lied to my face every day. And it, your body wires that as, oh my gosh, are you a murderer? Mm-hmm. Because your autonomic nervous system is very general in order to be efficient. It makes really fast millisecond calls just based on generalized information. So it's, oh, you're capable of lying to me.

You're also capable of stabbing me in the back when I'm not looking. So really what happens is you're— the betrayed partners are thrust into a full traumatic wiring experience where their body is constantly launched into a state of fear, hypervigilance, questioning everything, questioning themselves. Do I know how to keep myself safe? Is anything my partner's saying true? Have they ever said anything true? Is this entire relationship a facade? Is everybody lying? Is the— do I— am I suddenly in a parallel dimension where no one values the sanctity of marriage, where everybody's cheating, everyone's diabolical, everyone gaslights, everyone manipulates?

These are all the things that are running through betrayed partners' head while they're trying to wake up every day and do the usual behaviors— take the kids to school, eat, show up to work, figure out how to move forward now that we've figured out this lie that my partner has been doing behind my back. And so that puts them in a post-traumatic stress disorder state. And by the way, post-traumatic— you have to be past the traumatic event in order to be— Mm-hmm.

PTSD. But one thing people don't realize is very seldom is betrayal disclosed and, oh, this is the terrible, horrible secret I've been keeping from you for years, decades, whatever. I've come fully clean, and I'm ready to do everything I can to repair and help you feel safe. So I will now show up consistently and predictability— predictably, whereas many years I did not. That would be post-traumatic. But what happens to these betrayed partners is they get trickle truths.

Oh, I swear, that's all. That's all I did. It never, never happened beyond that. This is as bad as it got. And then they find out more information, then they uncover more. I wouldn't even say it's like a post-traumatic. It's just this constantly traumatic, uncertain, unpredictable state that these betrayed partners live in. And their autonomic nervous system just gets wrecked. And they're unable to— a little education is your autonomic nervous system is an involuntary system in your body.

And when it's not busy keeping you alive from threats, it's running all the other involuntary systems in your body too, which when you think about what do you not need to think about in your body and it just happens— breathing, heart rate, digestion, some sexual responses, some sleeping responses. So when you think about it, That is what is constantly dysregulated because your autonomic nervous system is constantly feeling threatened by the uncertainty and lack of predictability. So there's a lot of people who have immunity issues, digestion issues, constant migraines from their nervous system being completely wrecked, breathing, heart rate issues.

I have clients that have IBS or pancreatitis, or they have the fibromyalgia. And these can all— some— I'm not a doctor, but I feel like they can be chalked up to just being in a constant state of trauma.

Tara McCausland: Yeah. Thank you so much. And I don't know why I felt like I needed to ask that, but I know that sometimes we have to be reminded really of what it is that the betrayed partner is experiencing as support individuals and as a betrayer. Because I know that hearing from the side of a sex addict, sometimes they're like, why is my partner behaving this way? And they need to be reminded. what it is that they've put their partner through, and to be very compassionate and sensitive to this very hard reality, which is very often, as you described, the danger hasn't passed.

The way you put that, this is present, clear and present danger. And it's— they're living in a landmine of triggers. And so no wonder our betrayed partners are feeling crazy sometimes, hypervigilant. Anyway, so Thank you for giving us that overview. Let's go back now to these, this concept of the 4 Cs so that we can hopefully get some safety and stability and feel like we have choice, a way to move forward.

Kristin Snowden: Yeah. Choice, control, context, and connection are just, they're very generalized, but they're an invitation that when life feels out of control, we often feel stuck because again, let's just sum it up to basic. Life is not predictable. There's no consistency here. We are exposed to the whims and the risks of our partner's poor choices and, um, impulse behavior. And we never know if they're gonna get recovery. We never know if they're gonna go see that therapist, go to those groups, stay consistent in their recovery, if they're gonna become diabolical liars again.

So we're constantly dealing with daily levels of vulnerability and exposure to risk. All day, every day. And that alone can shut down our entire nervous system. But that's not an option. We're still parents. We're still employees or run our own businesses. We still have to function in life. And so the 4 Cs are our daily invitations to break them into tiny moments that when you feel paralyzed, when you feel stuck, you ask, can I bring back any of the 4 Cs in any small dose?

Right? choices. I do have choices on how I respond. And by the way, while I completely understand why betrayed partners in their states of trauma and crisis will scream and throw things and say things that later they are, whoa, that wasn't me, they have choices to go back, to make amends, to repair, to try to use some healthy coping skills to better manage their understandably dysregulated emotional states. So don't ever hear blaming and shaming. That's not what I'm saying.

But you have choices that now that you're in that traumatic crisis state, um, for a long period of time to really work hard to develop healthy coping skills, maybe going to a group and talking it out with some other betrayed partners who understand, maybe that's going to help. That's re-engaging choice. Connection and control, and honestly context too. There's people maybe who might be further down the road in the recovery path who might be able to offer you a little bit more context.

There's options, right? Choice and control. Maybe I don't understand what our finances were because my partner was entirely control in control of our finances, and so I have the option to educate myself legally, financially with professionals. To find out what are my legal options? What is the state of my finances? How might I be able to protect myself? There's just little— the returning the 4 C's to your life are just little invitations that I've been thrown into crisis, into uncertainty.

How can I daily invite them back? There's parts of trauma where towards the end of the traumatic healing process, where you have to be able to write a story of empowerment despite what's happened to you. And so creating these daily practices of how can I reinvite voice back into my day? How can I reinvite context, connection with myself, with others, control? How can I invite little pieces like of that back into my day, even though I don't know if I'm going to stay married or not, even though I don't know if my partner is going to stay in recovery, even though today I might feel hopeful, tomorrow— I might be like fantasizing about my partner's death.

It's— these are all going to vary, but inviting these 4 things back into your life, I think, develops empowerment.

Tara McCausland: Thank you. So I'm curious about the control word, and maybe we can bring this up because you're a 12-step girl, and we were having a little convo about that before we started. And sometimes in, in the context of 12-step, we're seeking to Surrender control, because a part of the betrayed partner's challenge often has been trying to fix or police their addicted spouse into change. And that adds to the crazy-making and the unmanageability. So I get where you're coming from on the control word, but could you put it in maybe a different term for those who are 12-steppers and might be like, but I thought I was supposed to surrender control?

Does that make sense?

Kristin Snowden: No, thank you. Because you're right, it does get into the semantics, and you get confused. Like, one minute I'm like, you have choice, you have control, and then no, you're powerless, and everything's unmanageable. Right. So yeah, it is. It's almost in that, like, when you accept how powerless you are to control what your partner's recovery might look like, you cannot make him or her go to his sessions. And even if you can make him or her go to therapy or 12-step meetings or groups or whatever, you can't make them make soulful changes.

It might just be for consequence avoidance. They're checking something off their box, you don't kick them out of the house. You don't have control of that part. You don't have control of their desire to change or have they hit rock bottom and will they humble and surrender themselves to this recovery process. So it's almost like you— we know the sentences that you only have control of yourself, how you choose to show up. And so that's really what I'm trying to say when there's words like use choice and control.

In these environments or in these daily practices, it's like you, you can't control the situation by threatening or giving ultimatums to your partner. You might feel like you can, but really you never know what their real intentions are. So it would be the process of accepting what you definitely don't have control of and figure out little tiny things like tonight, I'm just going to make sure I get enough sleep. Or tonight I'm going to plan that trip with some friends that I've needed to, but I've made every excuse in the book not to, mainly because I wanted to watch over my partner to make sure he or she wasn't acting out again.

And I don't want to leave his or her side because I don't trust his or her choices. So there's just things like that, that it's almost like you release control in what you have no control of, which is anything outside of your choices and your responses to things. Yeah.

Tara McCausland: Yeah, okay, that makes sense. Something that we also talk a lot about in SA Lifeline, SAL 12-step, is the idea and the importance of boundaries. And I know that boundaries might cover all 4 of these C's. What do boundaries look like in the context of re-engaging the 4 C's?

Kristin Snowden: I think boundaries are found in this concept that we are all extremely vulnerable to the whims of this imperfect world, right? We're, we're stuck between this really tough biology where we're biologically driven to connect with other humans, the wiring to love and be loved, to share our story with others, to hear other stories. So we are wired to connect with other people. However, at the same time, every human is extremely flawed. We can't control how long they'll live, if they're telling the truth or they're lying.

So we're expected to have a multitude of relationships all over the place, all day long— teachers, employees, coworkers, our significant others, family, friends— but we're all incredibly imperfect and also selfish, right? We just all operate from this autonomic nervous system of like, do I keep myself safe? Is that person a threat? What role can I play in managing this relationship or keeping myself looking better? And then there's the whole shame component. That's a whole other podcast in and of itself.

So I feel like boundaries is the answer to that quandary. We are wired to connect with people. We're supposed to be connecting with others, but I need to be really certain of where my responsibilities begin and end and where someone else's responsibilities begin and end. Brené Brown always sums up boundaries really well, and just boundaries are anything that establishes just what's okay and what's not okay. And we also use this metaphor more about— we use maybe a home, your home, as a boundary.

There's some people that you only see on the front yard as they're passing by. There's some people that you let into your home because they've established levels of trust and predictability and safety that you're like, okay, this person can hold space. And then there's people that you're allowed in your backyard for your backyard gatherings. You could have a giant wall up at your home, right? So everything's not okay. You're not allowed to enter. But then that stops people from coming to see you and know you, and it cuts off.

Yeah. The connective piece that you need in life—the experience of loving others, being loved, and sharing life experiences. But you also don't want to have zero boundaries. You don't want a home with no doors, no windows, no fences, no rules. And so it's finding a happy medium. That's what boundaries are. It's—I think it's a fluid experience. I bet a lot of these betrayed partners who are listening to me now have way more boundaries and what's okay and what's not okay.

Than before they discovered all this stuff. So the identifying and use of boundaries or just maintaining boundaries is a constantly fluid experience. And you usually need to be connected with your body and what's okay and what's not okay in yourself to help navigate. Ooh, yeah, yuck. That doesn't feel good. I'm going to have a boundary around that. So this is so hard for betrayed partners too, by the way. And I have some videos on that, why identifying and maintaining boundaries is so hard for betrayed partners because they've been lied to and manipulated so much that they are completely disconnected with their body.

They've been told through gaslighting and manipulation at the hands of their lying, betraying partner that, like, the sun isn't out when it's shining in broad daylight, that up is not— up is not up and down is not down. So they don't trust the ability to know what feels safe and what doesn't feel safe. And that, by the way, only is magnified if you come from any kind of childhood trauma where you didn't get to say no, you didn't get— you didn't get to protect your body or have a choice in the matter or get to exert your own, that feels yucky and I don't like this.

And right, you, you didn't get to strengthen the ability to identify that in your life. So betray— that's another reason why I feel like betrayed partners really have to do group. Because they need to learn how to play off, this feels okay, this doesn't feel okay. Is it reasonable for me to ask this? I say that because I can't tell you how many times I've been in a betrayed partners group, running a betrayed partners group, and they'll say, yeah, I just found a bunch of pornography on my partner's phone, or my partner was having an affair.

Do you think it's reasonable to know his or her location? Do you think it's reasonable to check his or her phone? Mm-hmm. Because he tells me I'm crazy and no one would want to be with anybody like that. And that's despicable what I'm asking. In our world of sex addiction recovery, it's— we're all about structure and accountability. And let's just own fact number one, your partner is a liar. He or she has a lying problem. So of course there has to be a strong level of accountability and structure.

And if you need to know where he or she is to feel safe, we process that and explore that, then yeah, that's a boundary and it's okay.

Tara McCausland: Thank you for that added explanation. I, I know just listening to betrayed partners, you're absolutely right. I think that there's a lot of value in having group support, 12-step support, so that you're with peers who are walking the same journey, because it can be really hard when you're so dysregulated, when you're so disconnected from self. to know when can I make a boundary? Is this appropriate? Is this—

Kristin Snowden: I feel bad all the time. How do I know when something is actually like dangerous or bad? Right. Which I want to normalize, which is why I beg betrayed partners, even though I always say it's so counterintuitive. You've just been destroyed and your heart's been broken by someone you've made yourself vulnerable to. So then this lady, Kristen, the therapist, walks in and says, so guess what you need to do? You now need to go into a group of other betrayed partners and expose yourself further and share more vulnerable information.

And I swear that's going to help you. So I completely respect how counterintuitive, like, asking someone to go into group after they've had— they've just been destroyed due to their willingness to be vulnerable and open themselves up to other people. But that's precisely why it's the way through it, why it is the remedy from betrayal trauma.

Tara McCausland: Yeah. So maybe just for my own personal clarity, as we To wrap up this idea of boundaries, I see boundaries really re-engaging this idea of choice and control. And my mom, Rilke Rosha, always says, you always have a choice. And I think for a lot of betrayed partners, they may feel like, no, do I? But when we consider that we have the power to say what's okay, what's not okay, and hold the line, we do have choice.

And then this concept of control, again, What is within my control? But let's talk a little bit more about context because I think this one might be a little bit more confusing for people. Give us an example of what re-engaging context might look like on the day-to-day when you feel like you're spiraling or stuck.

Kristin Snowden: The context goes back to this idea of what makes something traumatizing for someone. So your body will wire something as you've been traumatized, big T or little t, big trauma or small traumas. Based on how much you feel blindsided and powerless to the event. And so context is about this idea that you don't even know what to sink your teeth into. You're not even really sure what your partner did. You know they betrayed you. They know they've been lying to you.

They know, you know that they are not who you thought they were. But that's such a vague sentence. You don't know, was anything ever real? Yeah. How long, how many days of my life am I going to cry? Are my children safe? Will this entire crisis break us financially? So there's so many additional questions that come up when you've been traumatized. If it's a physical ailment, let's say you've been diagnosed with a serious physical ailment, but the part of the traumatic experience besides losing choice and control and connection Is like, will this kill me?

How long do I have to live? What kind of treatments do I need to do to help me get healthy or not? Can I afford these treatments? So there's all these question marks that pop up that throw us into uncertainty. And remember, our brain likes consistency and predictability. It does not like uncertainty in any way whatsoever. And so anytime you can Bring back some semblance of context that can help you calm your nervous system, calm your traumatic response.

Not surprisingly, most people find me because they're trying to return context to their life. They just found out their partners had maybe multiple affairs or doing paid sex, any, any kind of betrayal behavior, drinks too much, and they are In front of the computer searching, what is sex addiction? What is pornography addiction? What's the treatment process? That is them trying to return context to their life. What is this problem here? What are the treatment processes for them?

So that's a really great example of context. I think I touched upon too, some people are like, I can't live in this crisis and uncertainty for forever. I will give it 2 years. And then if there's not substantial improvement in 2 years, I'm filing for divorce, or once I earn this much money to have this kind of financial support, or some people will wait and say, yeah, I've decided I don't want to be in this relationship anymore. That's the context, but we have young kids, so I'm going to wait till they leave the home and then I'm going to leave.

Those are all fine because those are all you trying to return context back into your life. Some kind of more concrete information that you can sink your teeth into. Yes, life will always be uncertain. You don't have control of everything, but breaking down into just the tiniest bites of returning these things can really help you with the empowerment piece.

Tara McCausland: So I had been listening to another interview that you did and sharing some of these concepts. And one thing that I appreciated you saying was, is that when we are getting education and we're listening to podcasts or reading about betrayal trauma, that helps reengage the, the sea of context because we're then being reminded of why we might be feeling or behaving in the ways that we are or responding to our environment the way we are or to our partner.

And I just really appreciated that because we talk about in 12-step, it works when you work it, right? Nobody wants to constantly be reminded of the fact that they are a betrayed partner. I get that. But when we're educating ourselves and really understanding the problem, we then are able to find better solutions. At SA Lifeline, we're always talking about quality education, understanding your problems so you can find solutions, and doing the daily 12-step work, going to meetings, sinking your teeth into the experience, giving context, providing information and practical solutions.

So I just wanted to share that because that resonated with me.

Kristin Snowden: Yeah, that parallel's great. Yeah, Step 4 is context, right? Yeah. Step 4 is this inventory of your good, bad, light, dark, all the stuff you've done because it's your aha moment. Oh my gosh, these are the— and then 5, 6, 7, they're about understanding your character defects. I'm not a fan of that particular term that 12 steps use, but your wounded child parts, let's call that. I like that one better, that come up and sometimes drive these unhealthy patterns or not so ideal coping skills or really, again, provide context for This is why it's been this way.

We, we never, we can never change something we haven't identified as a problem. And so understanding the context of what's not working, where it came from, what supports it or hurts that process, that's all helpful in the healing process.

Tara McCausland: Yeah. So let's talk a little bit more about connection because we know, I know that I, we don't heal well in isolation. We may try, But I, as I've heard Dr. Kevin Skinner say, if we're going to try and heal in isolation, it's going to take a heck of a lot longer. So connection is really critical. We've, we've lost that critical connection with our spouse. Of course, we don't feel safe. But I also liked that you acknowledged that for some betrayed partners, this idea of putting themselves in this very vulnerable space with a bunch of other betrayed partners sounds terrifying and maybe counterintuitive.

Mm-hmm. So maybe talk to us a little bit more about the power of re-engaging the sea of connection and why that really is so critical to getting unstuck.

Kristin Snowden: There's just so much research that shows that we crave to be around safe people who can empathize with us and understand. And as, as again, Brené Brown mentioned about shame. Um, it can't live in an environment where someone else says, me too. I completely get it. You are not alone. You are not some unlovable, excluded, living on the outskirts person. I had a similar reaction. I'm struggling in a similar way. And so I find group to be so efficient in checking off so many parts of the trauma healing experience, if that makes sense.

Yeah. Again, there's a neurobiological experience that happens when you're in close proximity with someone, when you're making eye contact with someone, when someone hugs you, when someone tells you, me too. There's also a really great experience. There's a reason why all sports include some kind of coach on the outside of the— it's not just you going out and being the best athlete you can be. It's always someone looking from the outside. Yeah. Saying, oh, have you observed that you do this particular thing?

Or have you noticed every time this happens, this also happens? Is we always are on a better growth trajectory when we are with boundaries and a filter accepting influence. As one of my clients says, and they say in the 12-step world, um, living in consultation, uh, I will always be a better person when I humble myself to live in consultation with other people, because maybe I'm viewing the problem from a different space. Maybe I'm viewing it from a filter of shame and judgment, and someone else invites me to see it in a different way.

So I could go on and on about group, but yes, connection with others in the healing process is, is a huge thing. And by the way, I'm going to also say this doesn't always need to be in a recovery type environment. Some people are recovered out. I run— again, I run betrayed partner groups all the time. By the time they're in the 3rd, 4th, 5th group with me, they're like, Kristen, I'm so tired of talking about this.

I don't want to do recovery. I'm like, great, join a book club, read a book, chat about it with other people. That's healing too. Or find a hobby, but do it with some other people because all of those things can be healing. Yes. Is there a level of risk that you are taking because all humans are flawed and you don't know? Sometimes they're having a bad day and they might bring you down with them or judge you or say something snarky or non-empathetic or not very compassionate.

Absolutely. That's a risk you take every day when we try to do human things as a human. But I think the rewards are so much more than the risk.

Tara McCausland: So I know we're running short on time, but I did want to address the betrayer, the person that's Dealing with the sexually acting out behavior. And in the best case scenario, we've got 2 partners that are working toward recovery and healing in the coupleship. And we know sometimes our determination and desire kind of ebbs and flows in that for both partners. But let's say we have a betrayer listening and they can see that their partner is feeling stuck.

Yeah. They're doing their work, but their partner is feeling stuck. We can't row somebody else's boat, but what is something that this partner can do to help not push toward, but support their partner in engaging these, these 4 C's?

Kristin Snowden: The simplest answer is our nervous system craves predictability and consistency. You want your partner to start getting unstuck. And viewing you as someone who's changing and in recovery, do everything in your power to become predictable and consistent. Say what you mean, mean what you say. When they say they need to check your phone or know what your location is, or they want you to check in, or you say you're going to be home by 6 o'clock, or you're going to help with X, Y, and Z, you do it.

You follow through with your promises. Your commitments, and because you're human and you're going to do it imperfectly, so you will screw up. When you screw up, you own it. You don't blame somebody else. You say it and you make the repairs. That will be the most effective way. And the reverse of that, the opposite of that, would be be highly defensive about everything. So I will say so many people, betrayed partners, will say, yeah, I asked him or her if He could do this thing to help me feel safe and help me feel safe.

And just even the fact that when his response was like, yeah, absolutely. Here's my phone. Yeah, absolutely. You can make that phone call or you can talk with my therapist. The act of just saying, sure, I'm open to that, lowers their nervous system and they feel safer. You live so many years of your life not being transparent and hiding who you are and what you are. The jig is up. We found out that you are indeed imperfect and have made mistakes.

Lean into that and just be open about it and willing to share, because you have a lot of rebuilding to do.

Tara McCausland: Yeah, I really like that. We, we like to say at SA Lifeline, how do you know an addict is in recovery? They're humble, honest, accountable, seeking to connect with God and others. And I really like this, like, You, you cannot determine the timeline of when your partner is going to trust you again, but you can, as the person that betrayed, you can work toward this predictability and this humility and not being defensive. And for my mom, who was betrayed over a period of 30 years, when they first went to their therapist after the third disclosure, the therapist said, Can you stay with him if he's in recovery?

And she was like, how would I even know? This man has lied to me for so long. How would I even know? He hid so well. And he said, you'll know. And what she came to find out is, I know when he is humble, honest, and accountable. But I like that, that addition of predictability.

Kristin Snowden: I think those words are just really helpful. Like, it's really basic. Even when I think of parenting, I'm like, my job is to be consistent and predictable. Anytime I fall short of being consistent and predictable, i.e., I lose my temper and start yelling at my children because they're not getting ready for school fast enough, then it therefore becomes my job to repair my lack or inability of being consistent and predictable. It's a basic formula, much harder to execute than it is for me to explain it.

But it's a really great roadmap to recovery and helping your partner heal from the betrayal.

Tara McCausland: Love it. Before I ask you the final question, so just for our listeners, again, I love these 4 Cs: choice, control, context, and connection. To seek to reengage these 4 Cs if you're feeling stuck, but look at those things and how you can activate them in your life to hopefully feel more movement, more progress. So I've loved this conversation, Kristen. If people want to find you, Where's the best place?

Kristin Snowden: I have a YouTube channel under my name, Kristen Snowden, and I also have a website, kristensnowden.com. I offer every other month free webinars through sexandrelationshiphealing.com. I have a book, Life Anonymous. You can find that on, on Amazon. Really am passionate about helping people that find themselves in this crisis. So I try to offer a lot of free and low-cost resources. Groups, information, all of the above. Great.

Tara McCausland: We'll share a lot of that in the show notes. And our last question, our bookend, is if we have newcomers listening to this episode, and on the flip side, if we've got people listening that have been doing this work for a while, what would you tell them?

Kristin Snowden: The new people, you are not alone. You are not crazy. I am so glad that you have found the help that you needed and the information that you needed, because I've just met so many people that went decades and decades with misinformation and myth and misconceptions. And it's really been further traumatizing for them. Keep getting the resources. I would get professional assessments for your partner to make sure that— know that this is not just a marital issue.

This isn't because you weren't having enough sex with him or her, or you lost your temper too many times. Your partner had lots and lots of choices, and he or she continuously chose to step outside his or her value system and lie and sneak around and gaslight and manipulate during that whole process. So just keep asking for help, and you're not alone. So do not try to heal and recover alone. I will say, I think I do believe in that 12-step concept too, that you will continue to grow as you take your knowledge and your guidance and understanding And apply to people who've just gone through this.

If you feel stuck and you feel like you have the emotional bandwidth to do it, I, I'd keep going to those meetings and share your story and help people feel less alone and help give them some context back to their life about what might be going on, what the recovery process looks like, what are healthy boundaries, what are not healthy boundaries, how you've survived this. And I really think it helps you. with your healing process as well.

This has been so great.

Tara McCausland: Thank you again, Kristen, for sharing your wisdom, your insight, and take care.

Kristin Snowden: Glad to have you on.

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