The SAL Recovery Puzzle – Seeking Spiritual Connection w/ Amber P

Narrator: This is Pathway to Recovery, an SA Lifeline Foundation podcast featuring hosts Tara McCausland, who is the SA Lifeline Executive Director, and Justin B., a sex addict living in long-term recovery. We have conversations with experts and individuals who understand the pathway to healing from sexual addiction and betrayal trauma because we believe that recovering individuals leads to the healing of families. Hello and welcome to the Pathway to Recovery Podcast.

Jonathan L: My name is Jonathan L, and I am a son of God and recovering addict to sex and lust. Today I'll be hosting. Uh, most folks are typically used to Justin B hosting, but today I'll be filling in as, uh, as an interim host. Justin B, like most people, has seasons in his life where he's a little bit busy, and so I've been asked to step in and help out. We have a couple of events coming up in the year 2025 that I want to highlight.

In Mapleton, Utah, on the 5th of September to the 6th of September, we'll have the SA Lifeline Women's Workshop. On November 7th and November 8th of 2025, we will have the SA Lifeline Virtual Conference. For more information about our events, please go to salifeline.org and head to the dropdown under events. Today joining me, I have Amber. Amber, we're glad to have you today. We have a big topic that we're going to discuss, and you are qualified in a unique way to talk about it from what I hear.

So I'm excited to learn from you. Would you be willing to maybe give me a little bit of background about how you came into these programs and just a little bit about yourself?

Amber P: Yeah, sure. First off, I'm just really thankful to be on here and just Practice my Step 12 and being able to give back. So I have been a part of SAL 12-step for about a year and a half now. This was my second discovery in late, um, December of, of 2023. And when I had a first discovery, it was, gosh, about 10 years prior to that. And I did not have any of the support that I had this time around.

So when I found SAL 12 Step, it was such a gift, honestly, from God that I couldn't be more grateful for. And I have learned so much through this program. The people that I've met have been amazing, and I just, I couldn't be more thankful to be where I'm at today. And that is all, a lot of it can be attributed to this program.

Jonathan L: That's awesome to hear your experience and your hope in all of this. It's not uncommon to run into people who have experienced that big change. And today, hopefully in this topic, as we go through it, we're able to share a bit of that hope with others that they're seeking it. And I mean, I'm not the only one, but there are a lot of individuals who, as they come into this program, one of the big questions they have, because it comes up in the first 3 steps, is about creating a connection with a higher power, with God.

So that's kind of what we're exploring today in the recovery puzzle. We are looking at a portion here about forming a connection to a higher power. So this spiritual connection that it emphasizes in here, I kind of wanted to dig in and get your thoughts on these, a couple of questions, and we'll see where we go. But in your experience, from where you've come from and the things you've, you've run into, What do you think it means to seek spiritual connection in the context of healing from deep relational betrayal?

Amber P: Yeah. So it's so interesting because I have grown up in some form of a church since I was very little. I was baptized when I was a baby. Uh, my, my family didn't go, um, very regularly. Um, but I went With friends growing up, I probably went to 5 different churches growing up, and I don't remember there ever really being a time where I wasn't connected to a higher power of some kind. But what I can say is that when you have experienced betrayal, it gives you a different lens in which you're viewing your higher power.

And when I was growing up, I had betrayal Um, in my childhood as well. And so this wasn't just something that altered my viewpoint later on in life. This was throughout my entire life. And so I feel that while I went through these 12 steps, I was able to reform. Honestly, I, I feel like I went through like a deconstruction process where I had to not completely let go of everything I knew about my higher power, but I had to really question, is this, is this what I truly believe?

I wasn't just going off of what I was taught my entire life. I was going off of what I truly knew in my heart, uh, my higher power was to me.

Jonathan L: I love that. The, what that immediately makes me kind of wonder is that transition that you went through seems like something that can be difficult for a lot of people of going from organized and almost, uh, a social connection, which is I'm connected to these people and these people are connected to God versus my personal journey or your personal journey. Right. How did that kind of come about that you found the pathway off of group versus my individual connection?

Amber P: So what was so funny is when I first started the 12 steps, you know, I got to step 1 and it was like, admit you're powerless. Yep. Okay. Got that check. I didn't find that super hard. Got to step 2, admit that there's a power greater than yourself. Yeah. Okay. I feel like I've known that my entire life. When I got to step 3, I was like, wait a minute, what do you mean I have to like open up my hands?

These, instead of having clenched fists with my life, I have to like open up my hands to that higher power. I think some, I had heard, I can't remember if it was on this podcast or somewhere else, but it broke down the steps very simply and it said step 1. I can't. Step 2, God can. And step 3, I will let him. And I thought, gosh, that's a big ask to have someone that's gone through betrayal trauma. And it's hard in our human brains to conceptualize a God when we, we so often use he.

And if you're a female, you've likely been betrayed by a male. Yeah. And so to try to come to terms with this greater power that you're supposed to hand your life over to, that is, you know, in our brains, the only way that we can think of our higher power is likely of a man or, you know, pieces of what we understand a man to be. That's hard when we've been portrayed so deeply. by someone close to us and that we trusted that is a male.

And so I feel like that was one of the barriers that I needed to wrap my head around and really sit with that in order to be able to heal that part of my relationship with my higher power.

Jonathan L: Wow, that's really insightful. And I really loved the aspect you went into of actually opening up the hands, letting him habit. Can you, and I'm gonna dig just a little more at this because you're getting to places that I think are so awesome here, but, uh, the moment, 'cause you said this is hard, this was an obstacle, but what did it look like when you did, or how, how did you get to a point that you overcame that, that obstacle that you discussed?

Amber P: Yeah. So in my first, my very first SAL meeting, I had actually, it was on New Year's Day and I'll never forget it because I had, um, the only contact I had, I, I had randomly Google searched, um, because I had heard on some podcast that, okay, this is betrayal trauma. I didn't have a name for it at the time. I knew what it was. And then, oh, by the way, there's 12-step groups for this. And I was like, oh, that's fascinating.

And so I look it up, I find SA Lifeline, I look up their meeting times and find that they had one on New Year's Day. And so I find Tara's email. I can't even believe that she emailed me back on New Year's Day. But she did. And, um, there was 2 individuals, uh, on that meeting that day, and it was just, they were just doing shares. Um, and so I was able to meet my now sponsor in that meeting and another woman that, um, I reach out to all the time and they just share their stories.

And what was so crazy is cuz I remember her saying, you know, early on in recovery, it's really easy to just Be like a fire hydrant and you're just trying to take in all of this information. And that's what I was doing. I was drowning in trying to take in all this information and understand what is betrayal trauma? What is, what is my husband going through? What do I need to do? What are my, where are my kids at?

And I'm trying to take in all this information and I was doing nothing really for myself. I was trying to control the situation with information and education. And her response to that was, can you just sit with that? Can you sit with the grief? Can you sit with the lack of control? And in that first meeting, I was able to understand step 1. I was able to, I didn't fully grasp what it meant to sit in the grief, but I think when I was able to really sit with the emotions.

That I was feeling and take them to my higher power. I didn't mask it. I didn't filter it. I was raw. I was vulnerable. And this was over months that I was able to go through the process of what I later learned as lament. And when I was able to do that, I understood that. God is not just there in the times where I am doing well. He's in the, he's there sitting next to me with his arm wrapped around me in my deepest grief, hurt, and pain.

And he's feeling all of those emotions, probably more so than I am. And so when I was able to be able to see that picture, Rather than feeling like I was isolated and alone and only going to him to speak of the good things and what's going well and, hey, can you help me with this? But when I was raw and unfiltered, that's where I started to see some of that change and I started to build the trust.

Yeah.

Jonathan L: The way that you said that, it almost felt like you were talking as if you were building a relationship with a person who's sitting next to you, the way that you described that. I'm just fascinated by this idea that in this journey that you went through, to me, it sounds like you came to know a God in a more personal way. Is that a good assessment?

Amber P: Yeah. So there's, um, I did this shout out to the online program. If you are not part of that, it is well worth doing it. I think this comes up in step 2 or 3. I can't remember which one for the online program. And there was this meditation that it walks you through and I don't wanna give a lot away in case you wanna go and do it, but— No spoilers. No spoilers. The meditation was life-changing for me in that it had you visualize your higher power to where that was really the jumping off point for me to be able to say I was not alone.

I looked back and did a lot of childhood healing too in my times where I was betrayed. I was not alone and he was in that room with me and he was grieving as I was hurting and in this pain. So that to me, it wasn't, it was like, we're not on the same level. It's nothing like that. But when he is able to share emotions with me, wow. Whereas I think growing up it was more like this.

sitting over me in judgment or just this, I feel like almost sense of shame is what I had felt before with a higher power. And that's not it at all. It is so far from that. And so you're right. It was, it was learning how can I have this personal connection, much like I would with a friend, a deep relationship. That is what that relationship is with a higher power.

Jonathan L: Yeah. And you did, you specifically actually talked about some barriers that you had just now, but I want to, let's dig in here a little bit now because, uh, there are a lot of people who are listening to this who might feel stuck or feel like they're unable to overcome these barriers to connect with a higher power, to get that personal relationship. Let's look at this idea of false or fear-based connections, uh, that can, that can smother our connection with God.

Can you share what, and you've shared a little bit already, but what that's looked like for you or people that you've worked with?

Amber P: I think this goes back to that, that lamenting that I had brought up before. And if that's not a familiar word, um, a lot of times when you look at, uh, if you utilize the Bible at all, that there are these Psalms and you, as you're going through them, there's a lot that are joyous. Right. But there's also a lot that are taking pain and wounds and frustration and anger and writing them pen to page and laying it all out.

So I, I, I think going through that process really can help you understand how a higher power can sit with you, uh, because a lot of times I think having a higher power and understanding that in our human brain and This person or this, this, you know, spiritual being that sits over us, which is true, like I said, but I think that it takes away that personal relationship when we're, when we look at a higher power as, as this deity that we are so separated from.

So the process of lamenting is number one, you turn towards God because a turning towards, right? I am a, I will hands down admit I am an avoidant attachment. Okay. It's good self-awareness. And so, yeah, I, that came up in step 4. I am very much aware of that. It is something I'm working on, but whenever I am in a place of anger or sadness, I isolate. And so by turning towards, I'm maintaining that relationship. I'm not going into myself.

The next step is, um, expressing your complaint, uh, which complaint is mainly just your, your hurt, your anger, your Justice, right? And there's so many things that I'm like, this isn't fair. And so then express just being raw, like I said, raw and vulnerable in your emotion, asking for help in that, which is so hard. Again, that's our way of opening up our hands, like I had said before, and not having this tight clenched fist, like I can figure it out myself and I wanna control this situation.

Opening up your hands and asking for help. This is out of my control. I am powerless. Help me. And then that next step is choosing to trust. Now, a lot of those things are connected very much to our, uh, our steps in being able to go through, you know, admitting to God, talking to another person in recovery, right? And being able to admit that we're powerless, being able to go through that process. But I think that when we add in that vulnerability with our emotion to our higher power and asking him for help and choosing to trust, man, when we go through that process, I, that's where I saw the biggest amount of growth and understanding that a lot of the ideas that I had of my higher power were not true, especially when it came to that shame and some of the teachings that I had growing up.

Jonathan L: Yeah. What I think is fascinating too is you talked about A lot of good stuff, but specifically about finally, after you have turned to him, opened up your hand and given it over to him, trust is something you talked about trusting in him to do something. Right. But did you have any preconceived notions of how long it would take or any of that you had to overcome?

Amber P: Yeah. Waiting is hard. I'm still stuck in this stage. I'm still stuck in the waiting. That's what I continue to hear God telling me right now in a lot, in a lot of ways. So many aspects of my life. It's really frustrating because when you say, okay, well, there's no time, there's no time on this for healing. And likely this is going to be a lifelong recovery journey. This is nothing to where, oh, I've hit the 12th step.

I'm 3 years in. Okay. We can just wash our hands and walk away. I was just talking about this in my meeting yesterday. I don't think that we can ever get to our 12th step and say, I have arrived. It is, you go right back into, okay, well, do I need to go back into 4? I feel like I'll go, I take one step forward and I'm like 2 steps back, right? I'm in 4 and then, oh shoot, I need to go back to 1 and now I'm in 12.

I feel like I'm ping-ponging all over the place, but that's life and being able to give up the control and going where God would have you.

Jonathan L: I love that. There's so much in that that is just so powerful and people need to hear it is that it's a tool belt that you get. The 12 steps are not a one-and-done program. It's a Well, here's what you could use every day. Right. I love your perspective on that. And as we talk about this, your experience with, and maybe you can highlight this because I have a follow-up after this, but if you were to summarize, how would you say that this journey you've been on has ultimately impacted your connection with a higher power?

And if you hadn't gone on it, would it be different?

Amber P: When I look back a year and a half since I started this program, I am a completely different person now because I feel that going through these 12 steps and being able to connect with my higher power, allowing him to lead, has one, allowed me to be the person that I was truly meant to be. And two, I hands down can tell you the things that I'm involved with now and where the trajectory of my life is going specifically in my career is not at all where I would've been a year and a half ago.

And I wouldn't have been able to do any of that if I wouldn't have gone through this process of recovery. Yeah. I will be able to much better sit with others where I need to because of what I've been able to do. With myself and my higher power.

Jonathan L: That's incredible. Thank you for answering that. And given your unique experience in helping others and obviously working your 12-step frequently the way that you do, in your experience, you may have watched it. I, obviously with your experience with betrayal trauma, this has led to the outcomes you are seeing. For those who are experiencing maybe something a little bit different right now or trying to seek out that higher power, How do you feel like a betrayal typically would impact someone's connection with God or with a higher power?

And what can they do about it if it's a negative experience?

Amber P: Yeah. So I feel like a lot of times you're, it's gonna be like the 2 common outcomes is going to be this anger towards God. Like, how could you? Why me? And just going to this place of just deep sadness and regret, but still turning toward God. I think another outcome of going through betrayal is completely turning away. There might be some in between, but I mean, to me, that is what I, that is typically what I've seen in those that are within the groups of SA Lifeline and, um, and betrayal trauma.

So. I guess what I would say to that is that's valid. The deep hurt is painful as it is, is something that needs to be sat with. It doesn't have to be all at once, and it certainly is not supposed to be alone. That is why these groups exist, because I, I think a lot of times you may not be ready to go to that higher power. You may not even be ready to go to step 1, and that's okay.

But gosh, there is something to be said with sitting with other people. You don't even have to say a word, but sitting with other people that have gone through these same hurts. Yeah. I've sat in it alone and it is incredibly hard to do that solo. And I would not wish that upon anyone. So even if you are one of those that have said, I have to turn my back on God, I would just encourage you to be able to sit in the rooms, even if that's something that you are not okay with talking about.

That's not somewhere you want to go, but being around people. Yeah. that have been through deep hurts and are willing to sit with you in it and are also willing for you to share why you're not ready to connect with a higher power. These rooms are probably the most nonjudgmental rooms I've ever sat in. I would just encourage you to find that connection with another person, even if you can't with a higher power right now.

Jonathan L: Yeah, that's beautiful. And highlighting the fact that Just because someone's struggling with step 3 or whatever step, keep going, keep coming back, keep attempting to make these connections where you can. Because as you mentioned, alone is, is no way to go, right? That seems to be the case. And I know a lot of people are looking for experiences or, or connections, something that may have happened that they can tangibly feel with a higher power. I kind of want to dig in here too with you.

Are there any specific moments or memories that you have in your journey? where you felt the presence of your higher power of God in a way that surprised or changed you? I know we've talked about changing a little bit, but what experiences have you had?

Amber P: Yeah. So I was reflecting on this question and the reason why I'm here is because of my higher power speaking to me in such, not an audible voice, but it was like the biggest nudge that I've ever experienced. So I had my second discovery in December of 2023. And it was, I wanna say it was probably around September that I felt this huge push from God saying, you need to find a counselor. Prior to this, I had been involved in a church upon the first discovery where I was not sat with in the way that I would want anyone to sit with others.

I, there was a lot of shame in how the church approached this subject with me and my husband. And so, and I experienced that on multiple occasions in a couple of different churches as well. So I knew that going back to a church for something like biblical counseling was probably nothing that I was going to be able to, um, be vulnerable in because there was so much hurt there. So when I had this nudge towards you, I think you need to get counseling, I was thinking, oh, this is for me, for my childhood trauma I had been through that I need to that I need to work on and heal.

And in one counseling session, I probably actually need to back up a little bit because I, I went to, um, a website where we could search counselors in our area and I, I put on very minimal filters. I just wanted a female that dealt with certain, uh, issues. And so when I got my list, I probably messaged 20 counselors. Wow. I had one person call me back. Wow. And that is the therapist I'm working with now. And my one session, my first session with her, I had the validation I needed to approach my husband.

I hadn't had that for 10 years. So when I was able to approach my husband and realized this is still a problem, I then went on this journey of recovery. I don't know if I wouldn't have listened to that voice of God. I don't think I would be here because I wouldn't have had the people there to support me saying, you're not crazy. What you're experiencing right now is your body telling you that something is not right and you need to follow that gut feeling.

And I was able to get the courage I needed from my higher power to start the journey on recovery. Wow.

Jonathan L: That's a powerful story. And The thing that I love about that, and this is now off-the-cuff question for you, do you record these things that happen to you? Do you have journals? Like, one thing I noticed is people seem to— they lose track or forget about God guiding them through things. They go, well, that's great, that worked out, right? Like, yeah, because you clearly have drawn the line here and been like, he did that, right? How do you recognize that?

Amber P: I don't necessarily like record that. But there was that. And then another time I just felt this just deep sense of this is the way that the Lord is pushing me. Um, another one was, uh, in my future career, I decided to go back and go to school. You know what, why not? 3 kids and a full-time job and whatever. But I, you know, God was just like, this is what you're supposed to be doing. And so I just, I feel like when you have that deep connection, It's so apparent when you know, like, this is God pushing you.

This isn't like just a thought you might be having or something like that. I mean, I think that the more connection that you have with your higher power, the more that, you know, this isn't just me and a gut feeling I might have. This is, this is my higher power telling me where I need to be.

Jonathan L: Yeah. Might I submit to you that potentially this is a skill you have that other people do not. And I hope some people can learn from you. That's— this is why— so I want to ask you, because you mentioned this, this is the opening up your hand and trusting that God's going to do the thing and that, you know, it's him, right? It's the higher power that you trust in. For someone who's struggling to trust again, and I mean, like, really, you talked about this earlier where you had that barrier of it's a male, he— this is a difficulty for you.

Yeah. For someone who's struggling to trust again, and not just people, even trust in God, what would you say to them? Also highlighting even recognizing him along with trusting him, right?

Amber P: I can only speak from my personal experience. And so with that, I know that with myself and the way that I deal with being in trauma, that I dissociate. And so with that, typically your mind is going to be very detached from your body. So I didn't know a gut feeling. I didn't even know what that meant. I was so detached from those emotions that are going on in my body. So when I talked about, you know, lamenting, that was a huge process for me because for me to actually feel my feeling was not, it was not there.

And so it was a long process for me to be able to get to that point. Yeah. Because I needed to go through the process of what does it feel like in my body when I'm angry? What does it feel like in my body when I'm sad, scared? And when I was able to go through that process and work on being able to actually bring my head and my body back in sync with one another and understand what is that gut feeling, then I could start to differentiate.

There is a difference between Holy Spirit leading me and gut feeling. Those are different. Can they be connected? Sure. But oftentimes there's gonna be a difference between this is something that I feel like I should be doing versus God saying, this is my intention for you. And like, this is my great plan for you. So yeah, I think that being able to go through That part in my recovery and really having some of that deep somatic work was key in being able for me to be able to sit better with, this is me versus God speaking.

And I don't, and let me also be clear, I don't feel like that is something that I, I can point out on my hands, like 1, 2, 3 times that's happened in my life. So it's not like I feel like I have like an audible voice from God speaking to me constantly. Um, that would be awesome if I could just be led every day, every minute, right? This is what you need to be doing. But that is where our ability to have, be able to have agency as well.

So yeah, I think that's what really was key.

Jonathan L: Yeah. I want to go back to something really quickly that you had mentioned earlier, especially with your experience of going back to school. A higher power, especially when he has an intention for your life and where you want to go, it doesn't sound like that was very convenient for you to go back to school. And I imagine a lot of people will be asked to do inconvenient things when they start trusting in a higher power. Where do you, from whence do you pull your willingness or your desire to do it, even if it's inconvenient?

Amber P: Yeah. And that is our culture, right? We are a culture of convenience. That's why we have drive-thrus and online ordering. I have learned how to be, how to be patient. I would've loved to be able to stay in the industry I was, um, and just keep on keeping on. But I remember my counselor saying, uh, to me, God does not waste your pain. And when he started to reveal to me that what that looked like in my life was being able to go back to school to help others, I am going to school to become a counselor.

And So when he revealed to me, this is the plan I have for you, I realized I went through this recovery process and also saw what it was like when you were not met with the people that were going to be able to help me heal. When I was not met in that way earlier on, I now know what other people maybe have experienced, not just in you know, betrayal from, from a relationship, close relationship with, you know, another person, but within an organization, especially in a place that, gosh, that should be your safest place, right?

Church should be your, your another home for you. And so when I was able to see how I went through those things so that I could better sit with other people, if I hadn't have gone through that, I would be so uncomfortable being able to sit next to someone and Feeling like I need to be the one to fix it. But when I was able to see, oh my gosh, I now have the ability to sit with someone else and say, I can't fix it.

And I am so sorry. This is not the way it was supposed to be and be able to sit with them and help them work through their grief. And I wouldn't be able to do that if I hadn't gone through it myself. Wow.

Jonathan L: God doesn't waste our pain. Is that, is that right? Yeah. Yeah. What a profound insight that it's not come into the program, get healed and leave. It's come into the program, be healed, be changed, and then help others. Right? Incredible. I love that. I might frame it on my wall. So lots of people are listening to this podcast. Lots of people have questions or concerns about working their steps to seek that spiritual connection. From your perspective and from your experience, 'cause that's where we asked you to speak from.

Yeah. What can those who are recovering do each day to find traction in developing a spiritual connection with that higher power?

Amber P: Like I said before, the learning to trust your gut again, gosh, going back and doing some of that deep work and understanding how to get back into your body, if that is something that you've struggled with, like I said, was just really, really healing to me. When you're living in your head because your body isn't safe, and that typically is going to be pretty common within betrayal trauma. then we aren't able to fully connect to God.

Yeah. So I would say that, that is, that is a huge key. I hope if you have heard me speak at all, um, being able to sit in the hard emotions and not trying to rush past those. That was me every single time. I would get sad for a second and then, okay, let's brush it off. Let's move on. If you read through those Psalms, you can see that Jesus wept too, right? I mean, throughout the Bible, it wasn't that he just, okay, I'm gonna shed a tear and then move along.

Like he, how many scriptures show that he sat with someone and grieved with them? So being able to sit with them, and you might not be able to do that for a long period of time. You might need to take a break from it. But knowing also that you don't need to do it alone.

Jonathan L: And that's the very nature of the spiritual connection, knowing you don't have to do it alone. Right. I, I love that. This has been awesome. Uh, I have just like 2 last questions for you. Uh, these are ones that are typically asked of every guest who comes onto the podcast, but say you just entered a room with a handful of newcomers. They've never done this before, feeling a little anxious, first meeting. What would you say to some of these folks?

Because this may be their first interaction with SA Lifeline and the recovery process. What would you say to these folks?

Amber P: So for the person that's new, I am so sorry you're here. And I hope you know that these rooms are where you will find healing. I don't want to minimize any of the hurt that is there. I will say God will not waste your pain. There is something on the other side of this that God will use you for. That is a way that we'll be able to sit with others that you cannot do now. You can do it alone.

I can tell you it is harder and more painful. So I would encourage you, even if that means for the first several meetings, you're just sitting and listening, but to keep going. It does get better. Do not give up. The recovery process is so worth it.

Jonathan L: I love that. And then for folks who have been in the rooms for a long time, especially those who are actually having a difficult time getting traction on the step or, you know, whatever it may be, not just the newcomers, but those who have been around for quite some time, are there any words you'd like to share for them?

Amber P: I feel like over time it can be really easy to settle in and grow stagnant. And that's where I'd say, where are you leaning in to that step 12? Because when I start to lean into that step 12, God points out, hey, maybe we need to go back to step 4. Maybe we need to, you know, go back into step 8. And as frustrating as that can be, to continue to work on yourself is where I just, I don't know.

I love the growth process because I love what that means for my relationships with other people and what that means for my relationship with my higher power.

Jonathan L: Amber, thank you so much for being a guest on the Pathway to Recovery podcast. Uh, your insights have been awesome. This discussion has been so deep in the concept of seeking spiritual connection. Uh, I'll totally be honest, and this is coming from me, no script here. I rarely get to have this kind of discussion about spiritual connection, so this has just been a treat for me, and hopefully a treat for everyone else who listens today. Thank you.

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