The SAL Recovery Puzzle – Time w/ Kaylene T.

Narrator: This is Pathway to Recovery, an SA Lifeline Foundation podcast featuring hosts Tara McCausland, who is the SA Lifeline Executive Director, and Justin B., a sex addict living in long-term recovery. We have conversations with experts and individuals who understand the pathway to healing from sexual addiction and betrayal trauma because we believe that recovering individuals leads to the healing of families. Welcome to the Pathway to Recovery Podcast.

Jonathan L.: My name is Jonathan L. I am an addict living in recovery who has been in the rooms of recovery for nearly 5 years, and I'll be your host for today's episode. I'm filling in for our beloved Justin B while he attends to some other aspects in his life. I'm grateful to be here with you and share in this journey of learning and healing. Before we dive in, I want to tell you about an upcoming opportunity that you don't want to miss.

On November 7th and 8th, SA Lifeline will host their virtual conference, From Surviving to Thriving: Turning Pain into Purpose, featuring presentations on betrayal trauma, addiction recovery, and healing couples and families. The cost is $59 per individual, and discounts are available for couples and groups. And scholarships are available as well. To register, please visit salifeline.org. So I'm really excited today because we're going to be talking again about the recovery puzzle, but I have a guest with me, Kayleen.

Kayleen, so thrilled to be talking with you about the concept of time. And before we get really into the questions and the meat of the discussion, I'd like to get a little bit more of just your story, where you come from. How you got here. Tell us about you, Kayleen.

Kaylene T.: I came to the Rooms of Recovery about 3 and a half years ago, but my journey started long before then. My first discovery was actually closer to 20 years ago, and back then there were not options to help people that had these kinds of discoveries. I was on my own and time was pretty much all I had to heal wounds back then. But coming to the Rooms of Recovery has made a huge difference. I started coming and I literally cried from the beginning of the meeting to the end of the meeting for nearly a year because everything touched my heart.

It gave words where I didn't have them. It named feelings that I thought I was alone in, and it brought me hope when I had none. So I am so grateful To be here to share my journey, to explore time as it relates to our way of healing.

Jonathan L.: I love that. Thank you for sharing that, Kayleen. Really, it's an incredible resource now that we have. As time has gone on, I see only improvements in these resources. And a lot of that comes from individuals like you who have worked the process and are coming on this podcast to do your Step 12. give hope to people who are looking for it. So thank you so much for doing this. So let's kind of turn to the text really quick, because I— you've got a rich experience here.

And I want to draw out as much as we can for the people listening. The SAL book describes recovery as a marathon, not a sprint. And it acknowledges that healing does not happen overnight, which I think a lot of us are coming to be familiar with. If you're just starting, if you've been here for a while, It becomes pretty evident. When you first began this journey, what was your relationship with that concept of time? Did you kind of like the member share in there feel, I don't have time for this, or you wanted a more immediate fix?

I mean, tell me about where that started and what your expectations were.

Kaylene T.: When I first came to SAL, I was deep in pain and I wanted it to go away and go away now. I, I was not actually functioning very well in my Daily life, everything was triggering. Everything. Kids' cartoons, walking down the street, cell phones with kids, everything. Everything was triggering for me. And so I was trying to put my hands on as many resources as possible to try to see if I could figure this out this time and fix it and fix it now.

But what I learned is it was more like drinking from a fire hose. I couldn't take it in at the rate that I was trying to. I had to give it time or I couldn't remember what I needed to remember. I couldn't practice what I needed to practice. But yes, I wanted it over and I wanted it over now.

Jonathan L.: And that's difficult to keep that level of patience in the very beginning. And we'll get more into it, but in that initial phase, I mean, what kept you going? to want to continue looking into this?

Kaylene T.: What kept me going was this was new. This was not what I had done 20 years ago or 15 years ago or 5 years ago. Roughly 5 years before this discovery, I had tried working through my church's addiction recovery program and did their classes for family members. But due to my husband not wanting anyone to know what was going on, I did them by myself at home without the support of a group. And I actually found that their program for partners was pretty much not helping me at all.

But when I tried to do the 12 steps that was in their addiction recovery program, those were actually more helpful to me at that point. But I had worked through them on my own from 1 to 12 and turned it over to my husband and said, okay. Let's do this. But he wasn't actually working the steps. He had tried, he'd started, but again, he didn't have any support or any program, and it didn't work without support or program. It just didn't.

And so we found ourselves where we were 3 and a half years ago, needing more. And with groups to attend, with therapy, because I'd never done therapy before, because again, that had meant admitting to somebody what was going on. Telling.

Jonathan L.: Yeah. Getting it out there. I, and that is a difficult process that you just said that we're talking to you now retrospectively looking at 3 and a half years ago. I mean, before that even, how much time had passed and how long had you been working on it to get to this point?

Kaylene T.: 20 years ago was my first discovery. And at that point, um, my husband went to his ecclesiastical leader and he said he was working on it and the problem was fixed. And I believed him. I didn't have any reason not to. As things continued, as, you know, my kids would get into things because as they grew, kids do, they get into things and they're exploring things at school. I would get triggered and then I would go to my husband and say, wait a minute, I need some reassurance.

And it would be a, well, actually, I can't give you the reassurance you need. I've had a relapse. And so that was my history, my story. And every time it was me coming to him saying something feels off, something feels wrong. And I was the one that was having to bring things to the surface. And so by the time it was 20 years in, the trauma compounded with each discovery. And so I couldn't, I couldn't volunteer at my programs.

I couldn't balance a checkbook. I couldn't pay my bills. I mean, I was nonfunctional.

Jonathan L.: This aspect of time, interestingly enough, I know that the book very much focuses on this idea of it takes time to recover, but also the pain accrues over time. So it's interesting to me, logically, it would make sense that recovery would take time if mounting pain took time. Right. I think that's interesting. Now you're, you know, working 3 and a half years now in this program, which is just phenomenal, by the way. That is something that a lot should aspire to.

The more you work it, the more it works in your life. The book is also talking about how, and I think it ties into this, we're well served when we choose to be patient and trust the process. For many people, that's a difficult shift. And so in this last 3 and a half years, you've now invested yourself into this process. Can you walk me through your personal journey of grappling with the requirements for the time of recovery?

How have you moved from accepting a more patient cadence for your healing?

Kaylene T.: Oh, I remember about 6 months in, I was meeting with my therapist feeling very frustrated that I wasn't seeing any changes. I wasn't seeing any changes in my husband. I wasn't seeing any changes in my marriage. I was frustrated. And she said, look, you've got to give it time. You're just early in this process. And I wanted to yell at her, early? I've been working at it for 6 months. And she gave me some resources to read and essentially walked me through the fact that the first year you're pretty much in shock.

You can't make wise decisions during that period of time. Your nervous system needs that much time at a minimum just to kind of deal with it. At first discovery, I kind of equated it to grieving the loss of a loved one because I remembered how much time it took me to grieve when my grandma died. And that took time. It took me a full year to grieve that death, to be able to kind of put it in any kind of perspective.

And that's true here with this kind of betrayal trauma and the grieving process and the healing and recovery that goes with it. That first year is just trying to make sense of what's going on. You can make changes, you can learn things, but you can't rush the time. Wow.

Jonathan L.: That's amazing because you talk about the experience with your therapist who emphasized the fact that 6 months was early and you have this shocked response that that wasn't my expectation. So where does your expectation sit now? Like, how do you interpret the course of healing? What does it look like as a journey?

Kaylene T.: I'm hoping I get to the point that my ups and downs, my triggered points are fewer in between, because I know that I was triggered all the time. The first 3 months, 6 months, 9 months, and now I'm not. Do I get triggered? Absolutely. Do I have to use all the tools at my disposal? Yes. But a lot of that has been recovery plus time, because without time, I don't have enough history to trust the recovery.

Jonathan L.: I love that. You talked about tooling and resources, and I'm going off the script a little bit here, but I, I frankly am very curious. When you have that intrusion, that something that comes along that says, I just wish this were done now. I wish that things were fixed now. I mean, do you have mantras? Do you have thought processes, cycles you go through? Like, what are some of these tools you use?

Kaylene T.: One of the tools I use is surrender and having to surrender time because I have no control over how much time this is going to take. I want control, but I don't have control. When I Very early in recovery here in the program, I attended one of the women's workshops and they gave me a surrender box. It was, it was engraved. It said surrender. And then it was a prayer that we could use to pattern our surrenders after.

And it closed with, God, do for me what I cannot do for myself. And time is one of those things that I cannot do for myself.

Jonathan L.: Such an incredible insight to look at this and say, have we surrendered our need to control the time? That is required. Just such a great thought. I'd probably need to write it down for myself, actually. But with that, I want to talk about emotional processing sometimes. And this is something I've talked to addicts about this, where as you get further along, right, it feels like climbing a mountain. Like the further along we get in this maturity and this growth, and over time, it feels like we're more in danger of falling.

The more time, the more effort we put into recovery, the more precarious things start to feel. How have you approached that tsunami of emotions that's associated with betrayal trauma? How do you learn to allow yourself time needed with pain processing rather than rushing through and pushing it down? Surrender, you mentioned, but like, that's a lot of feelings. I mean, what's it look like for you?

Kaylene T.: It is a lot of feelings. And one of the things that I have to remind myself, I really do, there has to be given time. But one of the things I've come to learn is when I'm in that triggered space, especially The 2 things that I usually need are time and space. Space to feel safe and time to feel safe. Because without that, my nervous system doesn't calm down. I can't be present and in the moment. And for me, taking that time out to say, I can't do this right now, was really hard because I wanted it fixed and I wanted it now and I wanted the changes.

So to actually call for a timeout for me, Felt almost like giving up, but it was what I needed. To give it up to God. To give it the time it needed. That's interesting. To give it the time to feel. To give it the time to sit in pain and know that that's just what happens. We all have pain and we have to sit in it. You can't rush it or the pain is still there and it's going to come back and bite you.

Jonathan L.: I love that. And not to talk too much, but it just reminds me of this metaphor I had heard early in my own recovery about the hot coal, where all of our emotions are like these hot coals that get handed to us. And you can do a few things with a hot coal, and most people would just panic and throw it somewhere, which is not the ideal thing to do with a coal. Other folks will stuff it somewhere and hope it goes out and it just catches things on fire.

But what you're talking about is this idea of setting it somewhere safe and letting it cool down before approaching it. Yeah. I love that. There's something magic about time. Not magic, but powerful about time. Maybe.

Kaylene T.: I would give it both because there are days and moments that last forever. You'd never feel like you're gonna be out of the moment. And then in a blink, your child has grown. I mean, time is both magical and powerful in that way. I mean, I know the clock ticks at 1 second every second, But it doesn't feel that way when you're experiencing things.

Jonathan L.: And, and I don't know, my, I myself have only experienced it personally through the lens of a recovering addict, but tell me a little bit about this and coming from someone who's a betrayal partner, how can those who are experiencing the addiction, people who are the betraying partner, what can that individual do to help give the partner that space and time? What, what are some things they should recognize, or you'd like them to know generally?

Kaylene T.: First of all, I'd like them to know that the time is the time it's going to take, whether it's 3 months that I need. That was my first request and ask. I need nothing sexual for 3 months. And we came back after that, and I'm like, it's not enough time. To be respectful of the fact that I don't know how much time it's gonna take. It's gonna take as much time as it takes. And I'm not trying to do this as a punishment or anything else.

It's just what it is. It takes the time it takes.

Jonathan L.: So important to, to recognize. And I loved how you emphasized this idea of not a punishment, but it's a need. It's, and so it's so easy for someone who comes from the space of, I did something wrong and I'm so sorry for it. to internalize that and take that victim stance. But wow, to look at it from the lens of, of the betrayed and say, it's for my own sake, for what I need, right? Oh, I love that.

Kaylene T.: It was absolutely what I need. And, you know, I have a tendency to try to rush it and say, no, no, I'm good. I'm fine. Come back into the picture when I'm not, because I don't even remember what it feels like to be good and fine. And I feel better. But I'm still not good or fine. And so it's not me saying, ah, you've done something wrong when I'm saying I need more space and time. It's me saying I was wrong.

I thought I had taken the space and time I needed, but now I know that this isn't healthy yet either, and I still need more time for that growth and development.

Jonathan L.: You're talking about a really tough balance, and I'm going to dig in and you don't have to have the answer, but I would love to know it if you did. That feeling, 'cause, 'cause we talked about the idea of, okay, well, here's enough time, right? And you knew that you hadn't had enough. What came about in your recovery? What was the feeling? What was the context where you finally understood this was enough time? I mean, talk a little bit about that and how you came to that realization.

Kaylene T.: So for me, I'm still 3 and a half years in. I don't know that we're done, so I don't know how much time is enough time. But for me, I had to learn to listen to my body, to really look inside and say, you know, if I feel like my shoulders are up on my— up at my ears and I'm walking on eggshells and I can't turn around, I probably don't have the time I needed to reset my body to where it needed to be.

And I found that it's almost a moment of serenity, and serenity and time have an interaction here where If I, I actually pulled up a waterfall for one of our serenity prayers, and it's what I've got on my visual there, because when you sit next to a waterfall, you see the beauty and the majesty and the glory and the serenity of being there. But when you are the waterfall and you're falling off the cliff and plunging into the river below, it doesn't feel very serene.

And so time gives you that. Yeah. moment to step back, to be not falling off the waterfall, but observing it from a distance.

Jonathan L.: Wow. What a fantastic metaphor. The stepping back and the looking on it, right? I also had someone tell me a similar metaphor of this idea. He put a fleck on the floor, this therapist I talked to, and said, get real close, hands and knees on the floor and take a look at that fleck. And I put my face and he said, how big is that fleck? And I said, it's huge. He said, okay, now stand up on this chair and see if you can find the flecks still in this patterned carpet.

And I said, oh, I can't. And that was the idea is that take a step back, give it time, and it will look different. You talked about specifically looking at like physical reactions, which is also a powerful tool. Did you have some sort of journal or some sort of check-in program? How did that work?

Kaylene T.: There is a wheel or a body check-in list that you can find online that'll help you through If you're feeling like you've got a dagger in your chest, you might be feeling. If you've got tension in your shoulders, you might be feeling. And I found that helpful. And for me, naming my feelings was more than half the problem because there were so many I couldn't just name one. I mean, it was this whole ball of emotion.

And I was grateful for a sponsor who said, well, can you name what you're not feeling? Let's eliminate. Let's do the process of elimination with these feelings. So that I could then try to map feelings to what I was feeling in my body.

Jonathan L.: I love that. And it's something fascinating I was just thinking about as you were talking was this idea that there are byproducts that come with time that you don't have when you don't have enough time. So early in your recovery, you know, you started off feeling very overwhelmed. Given time, then what would you say were the critical resources you gained that changed the game for you? And it's not a game, but it's like changed the nature of your recovery for you.

What were some of those byproducts?

Kaylene T.: Um, some of the byproducts that came with time was, um, I didn't feel empowered at all. And when I started this process to advocate for myself, to make changes for myself, and as you know, I've tried to learn to make boundaries and hold them. Let me tell you, the first boundaries I tried to make and hold were more about someone else than me, and they didn't work. I've learned that's not how boundaries work. But when I finally got down to This is what I need, and that's why I hold this boundary.

I could hold the boundaries and hold them, not slip and change. You know, when I realized I'm not sleeping, I have to be able to sleep, therefore I need the space and time to sleep and heal. I could hold that boundary. Now, my, my partner was not happy with that at all, but if I wasn't sleeping, I wasn't functioning, I wasn't anything. And then eventually I got to the point that we could share a bed again, but it took lots of time because my body just reacted like there was a lion in the bed with me and it didn't sleep.

Jonathan L.: Yeah. Time really did make a huge impact as you gave it the amount of time it needed. I keep going over this thing you said, this idea of surrendering time. Because ultimately a lot of people will say that's their most valuable resource. That patience, that time giving on the side of the addict, especially giving of time, right? I just see how much more valuable that is as we're having this discussion, even in my own recovery, which is so cool.

Uh, I love this discussion. Thank you so much for highlighting that. This is incredible. It takes time to heal damaged relationships, as we've kind of highlighted. In the member share that's in the book, they specifically talk about earning and giving trust, which is a whole other episode we could do about trust. But they talk about doing that one day at a time through small, consistent behaviors seems to be the most effective way to do it. I want to look at your experience and talk about this because you, you've talked about how you needed time and space and we've gone through this.

That time and those small things that have happened It seems like it's contributing positively to your recovery. I, and we even talked about this where you said, oh, I don't know that I'm done because, and who knows, right? Life is long, but I guess given what you've had, what, what do you anticipate or what do you hope for comes as time continues to progress?

Kaylene T.: I'm going to address one of your other things first and then do it. Go ahead. You had talked about the time it takes to build trust. And that is so true. I mean, I remember early on when we first started trying to do some couples recovery work, I had made a request that, you know, my husband do the dishes every day. And I remember him looking at me and saying, will it make a difference? And the answer is yes.

If he could show up and do the dishes every day, I could learn to trust that he was going to do the dishes. It was like the first building point for dishes. And it wasn't the first day he did the dishes or the second day he did the dishes, but it was the, he was tired and the dishes still got done. And he was stressed and the dishes still got done. Made the difference in building that trust.

And that could only happen over time. And then once I could trust this, then we could move on to building other elements of trust. But it did, it took time and it took a lot of time and took consistency and That fear you had of falling off the mountain, it's a real fear because what happens the first time the dishes aren't done? Do I get triggered? Absolutely. But what I found is with time, even when he fell, the fall wasn't as far because it was like, ah, you fell to a plateau, not all the way down the mountain.

Jonathan L.: That exercise is amazing. And, and I wanna highlight it because What a gift. And I'm gonna say this and people are gonna be confused, but I'm gonna say it. What a gift to be given small opportunities to earn trust. I have had in my experience with sponsees, but also in my own recovery where, uh, there would be nights where my wife would be, would want to go out with friends, right? That meant I would be left alone.

And I would tell myself in the beginning, oh no, I'm so scared to be alone. This is a, an opportunity for me to fail. And one very incredible sponsor told me, no, no, no, this is your opportunity to prove success and earn trust. Each time you do it, you earn a little bit of trust, just a little bit, right? What a powerful thing to give your husband that opportunity to earn incremental trust over time. And yes, I love what you said about don't be so scared.

Like it obviously does have an issue. Like it is scary that when you make a mistake again, it's, oh, you didn't quite follow through, but there's a chance to earn it. Right. I love that. I'm just like absorbing this idea that you've handed me, which is so good. So the process continues, right? Because each day he continues to do the dishes and he moves forward and time goes on. What is the ultimate outcome? Where is this heading, Kayleen?

Like as we look at it and trust does build over time.

Kaylene T.: The goal is to build trust over time. And for me, you know, 3 and a half years ago, the relationship burned to the ground. I mean, we were at ground zero. So it has been, what is the relationship going to be now? And what are we going to build? We can't count on what was in the past. I don't trust any of that. So I can only trust what's here and now and what I've seen in recovery.

And it took me From my perspective, I mean, my husband was working his recovery, but I didn't see it for at least a year. And so that didn't mean he wasn't working his recovery. It meant I couldn't see it. You know, it's kind of like when you plant a seed, you know, it's underground and it's got to grow a root system and it's got to get heated. And it takes a lot of time before anything shows that you've got a plant that's growing.

And I had to have that amount of time to be able to see any of his recovery as well. And so hopefully now that the plant has begun to bloom, now that we've given it some time, we can work together to build something new.

Jonathan L.: That's awesome. And it's cool because of this idea that with time and 2 people who are willing to say, let's build something new, something new can be built. Something better, something actually worth trusting. I love that. Such an incredible introspection here on time and how it works in recovery. This is going to be something that I hope you can guide us home on this idea too, because I'm going to pull from the book, but there's a betrayed partner share.

And she has this initial shock at learning from another member that there's, and I quote, no end to recovery and that it required a lifelong effort. Do you view recovery as a lifelong journey? How has your view of recovery expanded as time has grown and you learn? Give me some more introspection in how you might help us, you know, a recovering sister who has this issue or brother, right?

Kaylene T.: I would say there is both the checkbox that says I have enough recovery to do things I couldn't do before and the checkbox that says I'm not done yet. Both can be true. With time, because like I said, I was triggered by everything at the beginning. One of the worst was trying to sit down with the kids and watch a cartoon about superheroes who kept their identity secret. I couldn't process secrets of any kind. And now I can actually go to a theater and watch live performances.

And sometimes there's deep, hard things that get covered, and sometimes I've got to call a sponsor afterwards, but— That's a far cry from kids' superhero cartoon. Time and healing really did change things, but I'm still not done yet. Recovery is a healthy way of living, and I want to live healthy, and so I don't want to give it up.

Jonathan L.: Yeah, don't give it up because it's worth it, right? So far you've worked it and it's— you feel like it's worth it, right?

Kaylene T.: I absolutely feel like it's worth it, and I happen to be fortunate enough to have a husband who's working recovery, but what I've gained from myself by working this program would be worth it even if he wasn't working recovery, because I have been empowered to— in the beginning, I was feeling responsible for all of my husband's feelings, and that didn't let him be responsible for them. And now I can be responsible for my feelings and let him be responsible for his.

And that I wouldn't have chosen this path to learn that, but I wouldn't give it up either.

Jonathan L.: You highlight something I've heard other members say before, and when you first start, this sounds crazy, but people say, I didn't wish for this, but I would never give it up. There's a healing that comes with it. I think about this in the men's program. They have this statement before they do step study. I, I don't know about the women's, maybe they have something similar. I'm not as Familiar, but it says that the 12 steps are a foundation to our personal growth and recovery.

And when practiced as a way of life, these spiritual principles help us meet and rise above all difficulties in our lives, not just those associated with the addiction. And you made a good point here. You'll check the box. You'll say we're at a stable operating point, but is there not more to do?

Kaylene T.: Is there not more of my life I want to live healthy? That I want to live in balance because for me, the SAL 12-step program has helped me learn about balance. And when I'm at step 1, I am so outta balance. I mean, my life is in chaos. But as I work the program, I begin to understand how to balance my life, how to turn things over to God, how to not take responsibility for things that aren't on my side of the street, and to take responsibility for the ones that are.

And all of that brings balance, and balance is a part of that serenity.

Jonathan L.: And I can hear the balance as you discuss these things where you want to build with your spouse. You want to make this work, right? And while that's not always the same outcome for everyone, I think the one thing that we do share is building a life that works for us, right? After the fact. Incredible. And your experience is just so helpful with this idea of time. I really appreciate it. I wanted to also ask you, and this is just a me question.

But with your children and your other relationships, how have you seen giving time to your recovery has impacted those as well?

Kaylene T.: That one's an interesting question. We had a conversation with our oldest son who was saying things have gotten worse for all of us kids in the last 3 years. And of course they, they can't target that and say, ah, there's D-Day. But the truth is, Mom wasn't showing up how she used to. Dad still wasn't showing up because he was dealing with his own recovery, and they were absolutely affected. And so we are now 3 years out at the point that we can now say we've got to deal with the ruptures, the pain, the shrapnel of the other relationships that have been injured in the course of us trying to find our healing.

Yeah.

Jonathan L.: It's going to take more investment of time.

Kaylene T.: It's going to take more time.

Jonathan L.: But your perspective on time, is it more hopeful now?

Kaylene T.: It is more hopeful. And I would say my perspective on time was what got me through this because I hadn't had depression to this level with any of my previous discoveries. And it was knowing that I did eventually get to the point that I could feel again, that I wasn't grieving every moment of every day. Helped me get through this one, even though it was much worse. Without that perspective, I don't know that I would've given SAL the time to work.

Jonathan L.: If anyone has followed us thus far into the podcast, I mean, share this with someone else because these are golden. Some of the statements we're hearing, this experience that Kayleen's had. Kayleen, I'm gonna ask you 2 more questions. If you had the chance, and you might have the chance actually to talk to a lot of them, but to tell every newcomer to the program something, What would you want to tell them?

Kaylene T.: I would want them to understand what self-care was and self-care wasn't. And for me, the biggest piece of self-care was that compassion with yourself. Validate your own anger. You have a right to be angry. Validate your own needs for time and space and safety and own them. It's okay. You have a right to space. You have a right to time, and it's okay to own them. And I would tell them that all of the emotions that well up and overwhelm, you're not alone.

All of us that have stepped onto this path have felt how isolating and alone it is to feel being right there at the beginning, feeling like nobody else has been in your shoes and nobody else has felt this pain. But you're not alone when you join us in group. Come, even if you cry from the beginning of the meeting till the end for a year, come, come be with us.

Jonathan L.: Kayleen will be there. She's got that arm to hold on to you. So then the next group of people I'd ask you to give a message to is those folks who have been around for a long time, who are still trying to work the program, who are still trying to find that hope. And, uh, it might seem a little sparse. What would you say to them? They're listening.

Kaylene T.: Well, the first thing I would say to them is we need you. We need your experience and your strength. Because if I hadn't had those people there when I showed up, I wouldn't be here. I needed the people who had walked the path before. So help build this community. But for those who've been working the path and are still feeling the pain, I would let them know they're not alone. That the pain is real, but that with time, with perspective, you can function again.

You can— whether your relationship heals by ending or heals by building something new, it heals. Both are valid options, but only with time will you know which one is right for you.

Jonathan L.: Kayleen, I just thank you on behalf of everyone who's a listener to the Pathway to Recovery podcast, but From me personally, thank you for all the insights you've given me, for the things that you've said today, and just this general aura of love and compassion that you carry with you. Uh, it's a delight to be talking with you today and have gotten your hope and experience. Thank you for sharing with us. We thank everyone who's listened to the podcast today, and we hope that you find your own path to recovery and healing as you trudge this road of happy destiny with us.

Narrator: Thanks for joining us. We invite you to subscribe to this podcast so that you don't miss new episodes. And while you're at it, will you please leave us a 5-star rating and review to help us spread the good news that healing from sexual addiction and betrayal trauma is possible? We invite individuals who are struggling to join our virtual or in-person trauma-sensitive 12-step meetings. Meeting times and locations can be found at SAL12.org. You can find quality education at salifeline.org, and we hope that you will follow us on Instagram and Facebook.

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