Keys to Positive Sobriety & Long-Term Sex Addiction Recovery w/ Steven Croshaw

Narrator: This is Pathway to Recovery, an SA Lifeline Foundation podcast featuring hosts Tara McCausland, who is the SA Lifeline Executive Director, and Justin B., a sex addict living in long-term recovery. We have conversations with experts and individuals who understand the pathway to healing from sexual addiction and betrayal trauma because we believe that recovering individuals leads to the healing of families. Welcome to the Pathway to Recovery podcast.

Tara McCausland: I am your host, Tara McCausland, and I'm so pleased to have here with me Stephen Croshaw, President and Co-Founder of SA Lifeline Foundation. And as many of you know, Stephen is my dad, and so it's a unique opportunity for me to interview him as a daughter, as well as the executive director of this organization that's done so much good in the last, oh, going on 18 years. And Stephen, you've courageously shared your story over the last 18 years and given a great deal of hope to many people.

And so I thank you as a daughter, as your daughter, for being willing to work your recovery so that you can be here today and share. from a space of experience, your own experience, as well as working with hundreds and hundreds, maybe going on into the thousands now, of people that you have worked with, helping them understand what long-term recovery requires.

Steven Croshaw: Tara, thank you for inviting me to be part of this podcast. I'm grateful for the invitation, and I'm also Hopeful that the things that we talk about will be helpful for those that tune in and listen. Thank you to all those who are listening live right now. It's a pleasure for me to be here. So thank you, Tara.

Tara McCausland: So can you kind of go back to the beginning? I'm going to call you Stephen since it feels a little weird to call you dad throughout all this, but let's start back at the beginning. Will you just share some of the key points of your story to give our listeners context?

Steven Croshaw: My story, to briefly just hit some important points, I think it's important for me to, when I talk about my own story, to recognize that my story with exposure to pornography, which really started me down a pathway of pursuing lust, was really early in my life. I was 6 years old, innocent in every way, really, from the concept of understanding sexuality. So when I found the magazine, I looked at it and it had an effect on me.

I was drawn to it. And interestingly, I gave the magazine to my mother after I had looked at the whole thing. And I don't recall her saying anything to me about it. So early on, I was drawn to pornography as a young person, as a child, and then as I grew older. I was able to discover and find more pornographic images in various places, then I would indulge in looking at pornography in any way that I could find it.

In my very early teens, I discovered masturbation. It may have even been prior to being a teen. I don't remember exactly where I was or how old I was, but I was prompted by a friend to discover masturbation. That's how I discovered it. That is an important part of my story. Important also is that I hid the behavior, didn't ever talk to anyone about it until in my later teens. In fact, when I felt like my behavior was keeping me from being worthy of some of the things that I wanted to do, in fact, find the right person to marry.

Um, so I confessed my behaviors. As a late teen, thinking that would resolve my challenges of going back to pornography and masturbation, also inappropriate relationships in high school on occasion. I confessed, thought that would take care of my desire to act out. And shortly thereafter, I found the girl that I wanted to marry, and I was excited about that. We met when I was 20. She was near 20. She was 19. And shortly thereafter, we were married. I was 21 and she was 20.

I didn't tell her anything about my activities with sexually acting out. That's an important part of my story. So she didn't know anything of my behaviors before we were married. And I thought that I had properly taken care of them. I thought marriage certainly would resolve any of the problems I had with acting out with pornography and masturbation. It didn't. Shortly after we were married, I found myself going back to pornography on occasion, masturbation on occasion.

My business took me on the road, so I was away from home. And sometime after we were married, I'll give it about a year, year and a half. On a traveling trip, I discovered an adult establishment, and that sent me down a pathway of going into adult establishments. And I proceeded in that behavior, hiding the behavior for many years until I was in my mid-thirties, actually. No one knew of my behaviors acting out with pornography or masturbation.

Or going into adult establishments, including my wife, my family, and others who should know about my worthiness to participate in religious responsibilities. In my mid-thirties, I had discovered acting out with prostitutes, and that's a natural progression from being involved in adult establishments. At about age 35, a difficult part of my story is what brought me forward. And this part really bothers me. And that is, I came forward not because I just came to myself, it's because I thought I had a venereal disease.

So I think about what that really means for me and my own selfish behaviors and the lack of humility and pride. It took an incentive for me to come forward. Yeah. And that was the incentive. I truly wanted to stop the behavior because I had tried many, many, many times to stop. So all of this time, the time that I was married, I was acting out on occasion, but I would always say that was the last time, which it wasn't.

So I came forward for the first time in my mid-30s. Then I told her first. And then told church leaders. I did not understand anything about what I was dealing with. And one of the most important things I didn't understand is the trauma that experienced in that first acknowledgement, disclosure, confession. She didn't know anything about it. I didn't know anything about what I was dealing with as far as addiction or trauma. And certainly she didn't understand anything that she was going through trauma.

That's another important part of my story. I'll move quickly to, I confessed all appropriately. I didn't hold anything back, and I thought, I'm never going to go back to this behavior again. I was sober for 3 years, but I didn't understand I was dealing with an addiction. No one told me anything about the possibilities of addiction. because in the mid-'80s, there was almost no understanding of sexual addiction, zero understanding of trauma. Neither of us got any help other than the direction to not look back.

Don't talk about this anymore. That was what we were told to do. I went 3 years sober, and then I lapsed and then relapsed. I'll call it a relapse because I didn't disclose that and hid the behavior for 7 more years. And so it progressed again to the same level that it had previously. I came forward again 10 years later for the same reason. I went through the same process again. This time the consequences were more challenging. Neither real nor I understood anything about trauma.

The idea of addiction was introduced to me. I'll say a very important part of my story to note is in that 10-year period, I actually tried to resolve my problem by moving our family and running away from the problem. That's a critical part of the story. It does not solve anything to try to run away from the problem. I thought the changes that I made, including moving my family, changing my job, getting off the road, all of those things would help, but I was never willing to acknowledge and be completely honest with what was going on.

So at that point on the second disclosure, the idea of addiction was introduced to me, but I rejected it. I went to 4 12-step meetings, felt like I wasn't an addict, didn't belong there. Frankly, was judgmental of those that were in attendance. I had some therapy from a therapist who really was not incredibly qualified. He tried, and I think he was honest in his effort, but was not qualified. So again, the story goes, 3 years later, I go back to behavior, hid the behavior.

So I relapsed. And this time, incredible shame, like I am really a flawed person. So that's what I felt about myself. But along with that shame was incredible pride. And that pride held me into that position of dishonesty. 2005, I was arrested for picking up a prostitute. That was life-changing. The experience changed me, but it took me literally 2 and a half weeks to finally come to myself and acknowledge that I had been arrested. With that arrest, I challenged myself whether or not I was a believer on the night of September 11th, and I decided that I was a believer, that I couldn't live this double life any longer.

I would take the consequences no matter what they were. I fully expected to lose my marriage, church membership. I understood that that would be a consequence. I chose to come forward anyway because the pain was beyond my ability to bear it. Came forward and went through the consequences. Real chose to stay with me. Still, we knew nothing of trauma. Over a period of time, she chose to stay with me. It was not an immediate decision. In fact, the initial decision was divorce, or the pathway seemed more logical divorce.

But fortunately, I quickly found a qualified therapist, involved myself in the work of recovery to the best of my ability. From that point, I began to truly understand that I was dealing with an addiction. I accepted that and I moved forward in recovery. Rill and I both received some qualified therapy. I worked my recovery and still did not understand anything about trauma. Thereafter, I think the story just goes on that I worked recovery to the best of my ability, qualified therapy, working the 12 steps, totally honest.

My effort was to surrender my will to God, which I learned. And over a period of many years, I came to understand what recovery looks like, what addiction looks like. And the biggest part of my recovery story really is my opportunity The opportunity that I found in helping other people, and Ril the same. Sometime later, we discovered what trauma really is. When I was counseled on trauma, I began to understand it. And over a period of many years, I have come to have a great appreciation for the trauma side of the equation.

So we can talk some about that. But, uh, for the last 20 years, I'm grateful to be in recovery and sober. Sobriety is not recovery, but it is the first step that I needed to make in order to live in recovery. And I learned that over a period of time. So gratefully, my sobriety date is August 25th, 2005. That's the date I was arrested. The date that I came forward was September 11th, 2005. That was a profound experience that God gave me as a gift.

I see that now for what it was. And I'm grateful to be living in recovery one day at a time.

Tara McCausland: Thank you. Many of you may have heard that story or parts of that story before. And it's worth taking the time to relate that because if you know SA Lifeline Foundation, and as you hear Stephen's story, you understand that so much of what we as an organization promote as far as what long-term recovery requires, it is found in the experiences of Stephen Croshaw and Will Croshaw. And so thank you for relating that, Stephen. And I will say, as the daughter viewing this from a, you know, pretty close perspective, I recognize the pain through those years of addiction and hiding.

I felt the neglect, the emotional distance. And now, as you are 20 years sober and you've had that time to make amends, it's made all the difference for our family. I'm getting ahead of myself, but what I want to share with you who are listening is that recovery works. There's hope even for those who battled this addiction for 30-plus years. There's always hope if we're willing to have the willing heart to be rigorously honest, and we'll get there.

But there are some points of your story that I feel like we need to highlight because the, the point of this interview is to first talk about sobriety being really key in recovery and what are the keys of long-term recovery. Because I think we want to underline the fact that you could be sober for 3 years at a time. We'll call that white-knuckle sober. You hadn't made dramatic changes to your lifestyle. But you could be, and that is something worth pointing out.

But let's talk a little bit, because sometimes this is a point of controversy. You have made the case in the last 20 years that identifying this problem as an addiction and self-identifying as an addict have been really key to your recovery, your long-term healing. Can you speak to that more?

Steven Croshaw: Well, in the brief, and, and as I went through some of the key points of my work of recovery, it's important to note the first time that I actually disclosed, uh, this was before I was married. There was no understanding of addiction. Then the first time that I came forward after I was married, there was no understanding of addiction. And so the thought wasn't there. Right. to work on it from that perspective. The second time that I came forward, the concept of addiction was introduced to me.

I rejected it. Then because of that rejection, I was essentially denying myself of opportunities to work my recovery from the perspective of an addiction. And then so finally, when I came forward for the third time, accepting the concept that I'm dealing with an addiction, which is toxicity to lust, That's the way I define sexual addiction is toxicity to lust. Then I began to have a perspective on, oh, you know, it's not this idea of willpower or that I am just a weak person.

It actually helped me to understand that if I'm dealing with an addiction, that gives me an opportunity to understand on how I can work towards living in recovery. Yeah. Because from that perspective, it changes and gives me bottom lines and boundaries that I can respect because of addiction, toxicity to lust. And so dealing with, in my own recovery, it helped me a lot to finally come to the conclusion that I am dealing with an addiction. I will accept that.

And then the great thing was I was willing to put myself into an environment where I could work with other men who were dealing with the same thing that I was dealing with. with, and I could see their example, their strength, their hope. My first sponsor had 6 years of sobriety when I met him, and that amazed me. And his story was very much like mine. So I was willing to follow his lead. He had experiences like mine.

He was acknowledging addiction. He helped me understand that as I was willing to accept that I was dealing with an addiction, that would help me to know what to do in order to live in recovery. It was critical for me.

Tara McCausland: Thank you. And I think it's worth recognizing that we have— and we've talked about this a lot on this podcast— that there are degrees, right? Not everyone that's looked at pornography once or twice is an addict. But to be able to embrace this idea that pornography is addictive in nature, and that we see a trajectory of addiction for those who are frequent users of pornography, and that the brain doesn't want just more, it needs different. And we see that in your story, Stephen, where as a young man you dealt with issues of pornography and masturbation, and in order to feed the addiction, to get the high, you had to go into deeper, darker places to get the hit.

And so it's a very dangerous thing to say, pornography is a non-issue, or you can use it occasionally without consequence because it is addictive. It's created to be addictive.

Steven Croshaw: Science is bearing out the fact that using pornography and then combining that with masturbation changes brain chemistry. It does. And there are those who want to deny that and make every effort to sell the idea that it is not addictive. And there's reasons why that is. A lot of people make a lot of money off of pornography. Um, and so the production and dissemination of pornography is very profitable. Those profit motives, certainly people are going to deny that this is an addictive behavior.

That's going to put liability in their lap. And so There's a lot of people who want to deny that pornography use, and especially combining that then with masturbation, changes brain chemistry. It does. But beyond that, it changes a person's view of themselves from an emotional and spiritual standpoint as well. So if we're looking at the chemistry of the body and the brain and the emotional challenges that come along with a person wanting to live a life of integrity, and then If you start to mix all of that together, people who recognize that or have in their perspective of what it means to live an honest life, if pornography is not a part of that honesty, then they will feel shame and they'll want to withdraw.

So I think that the idea of minimizing the impact of pornography on how it affects our life is what To a large degree is holding us back from making progress. So young people exposed early, and most of the men that I work with in recovery, they are exposed early, all begin the process of developing an addiction innocently. It's not like they're planning on that. It's a very innocent progression towards addiction. But using pornography over a period of time.

combining that with masturbation does become an addiction. And I think the science is bearing that out completely.

Tara McCausland: Thank you. So the next thought that I would love to point out, and by the way, for those who are listening live and those who will be listening to this after the fact, I'll go ahead and post an article that Stephen wrote a few years ago where I'm taking some of these ideas from. But in that article, you make the interesting statement that You— well, maybe I'll say first that many like to argue that shame is the primary driver in the addiction.

And we know that shame plays a very strong role. But you have shared that you actually feel that lust is the primary driver in sex addiction. And I think that we need to make that distinction. Will you expound on this idea and perhaps help us understand how— Sure. This perspective changes how you approach daily recovery efforts.

Steven Croshaw: The pursuit of lust has a reward, and it's the reward that we're looking for when, and part of that reward is relief from feelings of shame. It really is that with lust is going to give me a reward when I pursue it. If I pursue acting out on lust, it will give me a reward. Even the reward of the idea that objectification and lust associated with objectifying another person, it does have a physical reward. So that physical reward is dopamine that's released into the brain.

And so the pursuit of lust is, I believe, the reward that we're looking for to relieve boredom, to relieve maybe resentment or anger or fear or shame, any of these emotional experiences that we have in life that are part of life, then we'll look for some way to relieve ourselves of that emotional distress. The biggest thing I see in young people is they'll go to pornography not because of shame, but because of boredom, looking for a reward.

What shame does is it isolates us, and so the isolation then it contributes to more behavior because we're not seeking help to get away to which we need in order to break free of the behavior. We're not going to break free on our own. I'm sure there are some people who literally cold turkey and stay free from behavior. I don't know those people because they're not the ones that come into the rooms of recovery or that seek recovery or seek counsel from me.

The ones I see are the ones that absolutely have isolated and finally come forward. So shame is isolating. Shame will then, with that isolation, deny us the opportunity, or we deny ourselves the opportunity of help. That way it's a contributor. Other people shaming us is a driver. And that's one thing we have to be very careful of. And that is, if someone tells me, hey, you are a loser and you're a bad person, I can't believe that you would do this.

That contributes to a person's feeling negative self-worth. So we have to be very careful not to shame another person. If a person is in recovery, those negative comments will potentially still come, but they can be, instead of creating a feeling of anger or fear or resentment, It creates a feeling of empathy for the person who's being challenged for the feelings that they may have as a result of your behavior, of my behavior. So if my wife said to me in the second time that I came forward, you're a sex addict, I felt like that was shaming.

And the reason I felt like it was shaming is because I was not in recovery. She was trying to explain to me, you have a problem, will you accept it? And I would not. And so there's a fine line between the idea of, does shame cause the problem, or is it something other than that? The reward is what I'm looking for if I act out, and to escape the feelings that I have of anger, fear, resentment.

Alcoholics say that resentment kills more alcoholics than anything else. And that's true. And I think that applies a lot to sexual addiction as well. So if you look at the side of a person that's in behavior and continues in behavior, they're going to add to that problem of their behavior by isolating or by pushing back. And those are— that's prideful. That's shame-driven. It's selfishness. It's fear-driven. But still, what we're looking for, or what I was looking for, was a reward, and I could find that reward in the behavior.

Tara McCausland: That is a really interesting distinction because very often you will hear from people that shame is the primary driver. And I think what I'm hearing from you is it plays a strong role, but lust cannot be ignored. And that really brings us to this next question. If you're familiar with SAL 12-step, You might be familiar with our definition of sobriety. And we know that sobriety is the first step to healing. It's not the endgame, it's the beginning of recovery.

But SAL has a tighter definition of sobriety than other fellowships. It discusses lust in this definition. I would love for you, Stephen, to share what is the SAL definition of sobriety? And why do you believe That a clear, hardline definition actually supports recovery rather than impeding it.

Steven Croshaw: The SAL 12-step definition of recovery is sexual sobriety means having no form of sex with self, not pursuing actions of lust such as using pornography, and having no form of sex with anyone other than the spouse. Our goal is to live in recovery. to practice positive sobriety, and to choose to actively surrender lust in all its forms to the God of our understanding. That's an expanded definition over the definition of sobriety for Sexaholics Anonymous. The Sexaholics Anonymous definition is actually very strong.

And if you read in the White Book, starting on page 191, One, it gives a long definition, not just a short definition, but a long understanding of what their definition is. And frankly, a good part of the expanded definition within SAL and SA Lifeline is taking into account the concept of pornography. I would see people say, well, I'm not acting out with pornography, but I am masturbating. Or they would say, I'm not masturbating, but I'm acting out with pornography.

In other words, they're trying to slice and dice the definition in order to fit what they really want it to fit. And a person is responsible to, to, if they want to accept the definition and then strive in their own work of recovery to meet that definition, I feel like That's their choice and their opportunity. If a person wants to be part of the SAL 12-step program, that definition is there to help them understand that pornography is pursuing lust.

So it's in the definition. And that positive sobriety, in other words, working recovery on a daily basis, surrendering our will to God, that has become part of the definition. And so that We're not relying upon trying to do a long definition to give us some key points of pornography is a problem, it's pursuing lust, and also that positive sobriety is really what we're looking for, not just stopping behavior.

Tara McCausland: Thank you. Yeah, and there, there's kind of a growing, uh, group of individuals that might push back on those hard lines that are in that sobriety definition. saying that perhaps it's more shaming, or they feel like if I relapse, then I'm a failure. And so taking a softer approach to sobriety is maybe more helpful in the long term. I don't know if I'm explaining that well, but what would you say to someone who says sobriety isn't really that important, especially in the offset, for long-term recovery?

Steven Croshaw: Well, sobriety is step zero. Without sobriety, there is no recovery. And I would maintain that in any conversation about what recovery takes. It doesn't mean that there won't be situations where there are lapses. And it's important to understand that recovery is a process. It's not an event. There are events that go along in a person's effort to live in recovery and positive sobriety. And there are episodes where A person slips back and breaks the definition. Accepting that then is an opportunity to understand where I can improve and why did I choose to act out?

How can I improve based upon what I learned from that experience? And so we have 3 different words that we define really closely in SAL. We talk about a slip, a lapse, and a relapse. And relapse is choosing to act out and then lie about it. There can be no recovery in that circumstance. So living in recovery requires rigorous honesty, and that would be acknowledging a lapse. A lapse is choosing to act out and then being honest about it, learning from that experience, then working with a sponsor, working potentially with a therapist, working with other people that can share their experience, strength, and hope.

We learn from our lapses. We don't learn how to live in recovery from a relapse. That is hiding the behavior, representing ourselves as being in recovery. You know, but a person that truly wants to feel positive about themselves has to be very careful about gaslighting themselves. In other words, I'm going to be accepting of the idea that I can occasionally do pornography and I'm okay. In reality, I've never seen someone that I have worked with That can say, I will be okay if I'm an occasional user.

It just does not work well.

Tara McCausland: So in sharing your story, you described multiple attempts. In the article that you wrote, you described 4 distinct attempts to stop the behavior, and they were all sincere attempts. Even though this may be rehashing a little bit, we are talking about keys to long-term recovery. In looking back, What was missing? What pieces were missing in your 3 earlier attempts to recover? Whereas the 4th attempt, you were able to sustain sobriety and recovery.

Steven Croshaw: Well, um, I'm just going to use some keywords here. The first one was understanding what I was dealing with. Another one was a willingness to accept that I was dealing with an addiction that was critical. Another one was a willingness to set aside pride and have enough humility to be rigorously honest. And then it's really important to recognize, as I said, that recovery is not an event, it's a process. And so dedicated to the work of recovery.

It's not a short-term deal. People will look at it and say, I just need to stop the behavior. Remember, stopping the behavior is step zero. Then learning how to live a healthy life sexually and healthy life in relationships requires a lot more than stopping behavior. And so what we would look at is how important it is that I recognize what my bottom lines and what my boundaries are if I'm dealing with an addiction. And What do I need to recognize as far as my top lines if I'm dealing with an addiction?

Top lines are things that I will do, the things that I do every single day to stay safe. Get out of bed, say a prayer, surrender my will to Heavenly Father in that prayer, asking for strength and direction during that day to stay sober. Acknowledge it right up front that I'm dealing with something on a one-day-at-a-time basis. Instead of looking back or saying, oh, what was me? All that stuff in the past is making me, you know, I can never recover from that.

Or looking forward to saying with fear, I can never do this. Well, we can't look at it that way. It's a one day at a time deal. And so if we're willing to acknowledge addiction, it helped. It was critical for me. That then set aside the pride associated with that. So we're talking about humble, honest, and accountable. In that, we combine that with a daily effort of recovery. And it's, we truly don't skip a day. We shouldn't skip a day of, of willingness to surrender to God all of the challenges that we have.

A willingness to pray for strength. Yeah. If we look at 12-step, it's God-centered. It's a willingness to yield or to surrender our will to Heavenly Father. God, the God of our understanding, whoever that God of our understanding is, we need to surrender our will. So long-term recovery for me progressed from, yes, I stopped behavior. I got involved in the work of recovery. That included all of the elements of the 12 steps, which was acknowledging unmanageability, acknowledging that there is a power greater than myself.

I will surrender that. power to that power. And then if you look at steps 4 and 5, really looking at character weaknesses and pride really enters right at the top of that, or fear or shame. So I've got to learn how to deal with those, be honest about that with other people, and then look all the way through. If you look at step 10 as an example, well, steps 8 and 9, make amends and so that we're right with people, the people that need to know that we are.

Taking responsibility for the harm that we've caused. Look at Step 10, when I'm wrong, promptly admit it. Look at Step 11, a conscious contact with God, a prayer in my heart. But for me, the critical part of my own recovery is helping other people as a sponsor and in other ways. It helps other people. I believe when I attend a meeting, I'm another person there to share my experience, strength, and hope. When I have an opportunity to share my experience with others, Who might be looking for help.

Step 12 in my work of recovery today is absolutely critical, and it's an unbelievable opportunity. Step 12, having had a spiritual awakening, I desire to help other people. That is what the alcoholics discovered really made all the difference in, in really living in recovery.

Tara McCausland: Thank you. If you're again familiar with SA Lifeline Foundation, you are aware of our recovery puzzle. And I think Steven hit on all of those pieces without mentioning the recovery puzzle. And in fact, Ellie, my assistant, she's here with us. Do you mind just putting a link in the chat for the recovery puzzle? Sure. And that recovery puzzle really encompasses all of those pieces that you just described. Stephen. And what I love about the recovery puzzle is you'll get bits and pieces of these concepts here and there, but at SA Lifeline, we really try and bring together all of those essential pieces, the heart and mind pieces at the center and the action pieces on the outside that really are at the heart of long-term healing.

And I have witnessed both Stephen and Ril incorporating all of these pieces. So their 20 years of healing, that's what it took for them. And in viewing other people's journeys, as they incorporated that willing heart, the rigorous honesty, the accountability, the humility, et cetera, it really does work. It's simple, but you gotta get all of those pieces together in order to sustain the healing. And so thank you again, Stephen, for explaining. Yeah. what was different the 4th time around.

But I know that we have some betrayed partners here with us in our live audience and those who will be listening. And you spoke to the fact that for many, many years, both you and Rill didn't understand trauma, uh, the impact of trauma, both for you yourself in your addiction and for Rill as a betrayed partner. And your addiction did deeply affect not just my mother, your wife, but the whole family system, even while it remained hidden.

So I'm curious if you can speak to betrayed partners and maybe children as well. What signs ought they to be looking for to discern real change versus empty promises?

Steven Croshaw: You know, that's such a great question, and it is so, so, so important. That is, in all of my work of recovery the last 20 years, now that I look back on the previous time of my life, understanding the harm that I was causing first to my wife and then to my children and to others around me, not recognizing what was really happening. That's a very selfish way of— that's a very selfish part of addiction, of a person that's dealing with an addiction.

There's always this concentrated effort on myself. Woe is me. I've got a problem. Why can't people understand me? Why can't people give me a little bit of slack here? Don't they understand I'm trying? You know, all of these feelings that exist. From the perspective of an addict, which really relate to being a victim, and being a victim is extremely selfish. It's not a part of recovery in any way, and those that have been traumatized are looking for the ability to be safe in their life.

Just trying to to how can I be safe in a relationship where I've been hurt, traumatized, betrayed so many times? That is that's a serious serious issue, and that's why. A woman who's been betrayed really needs to work her own recovery. Sounds like, wow, I'm not the person that is responsible for this, but yet I have to work my own recovery. Sadly, that is the case. If a person has been harmed, they, in order for them to heal, they've got to work on their own recovery.

That isn't fair. That's exactly right. But I'm going to just go to the SAL book. actually on page 83. And I'm just going to read this. This is under the heading of Our Experience with Recovering Addicts, Recognizing Betrayal Trauma. It says, as we recover, each time our partner's trauma resurfaces becomes an opportunity to humble ourselves, be accountable for our part, And listen without defensiveness. How we respond to our partner's trauma is one of the most accurate indicators of where we are in our own recovery.

That is really interesting, but true. Because when a person has a trauma trigger and the person that's responsible to a large degree of that that betrayal is right there, suddenly that person may not feel safe to be around anymore. Even though that person may not have done anything to suggest that that trauma response would come. But I think it comes without invitation. It just is there. And I think the important thing for me to understand is if my wife has an experience of Of having a moment where the betrayal and the trauma comes back.

How, how do I deal with that? Do I go to victim? Do I go to defensiveness? If I do, then I'm not representing recovery at all. So what I need to do is understand that, don't make this about me, Stephen. See what I can do to support my wife in her pain by accepting the responsibility for my stuff. The things that I had done in the past that created this in the first place. And then on from there, an assurance of love and commitment to the relationship.

I recognize the trauma. I take responsibility for my part in creating that environment. I want to do right. I will continue to work my recovery. And then what can I do for you to help you in this moment? And sometimes that may be rejected. Sometimes it might be accepted. But whatever the response is back from my wife, I need to be willing to say, I'll support her in her recovery. So if you want to measure how well a person is doing in recovery, you can look at their dedicated effort to their own personal work of recovery and how they respond in difficult situations.

And one of them is trauma response. Hopefully that's helpful, Tara.

Tara McCausland: Yes. And actually that rings true to what Tammy Gustafson and I spoke about. And so if you'd like to hear more about that, I would I encourage you to go to Tammy Gustafson's episode. I don't know what number it is, but it was just recently posted. And as we like to say at SA Lifeline, how do you know if someone's in recovery? They're honest, humble, accountable, seeking to connect with God and others. And sometimes it's hard to know if someone's being honest, but it's hard to fake humility and accountability.

So thank you, Stephen, for speaking to that, because I know that that's a real challenge. Yeah. For women who have been gaslit and deceived for sometimes decades, they may not be able to tell, but humble, honest, accountable, connecting with God and others, those are hallmarks. So as we're wrapping up, in this same article that I've referenced, you describe recovery as simple but not easy, requiring lifelong effort and humility. And And we'll kind of use this as our bookend question before we get to the questions of others.

But if you were to say, you know, you're talking to someone who's just starting this path of recovery and they feel overwhelmed by the work that's ahead, how would you counsel them?

Steven Croshaw: Well, recovery— honest, humble, and accountable. How difficult is it to be honest, to set aside pride, to set aside the natural man? That, I mean, we're now talking about the very, very, very difficult parts of life. So to understand the importance of rigorous honesty, Anna Lembke in her book Dopamine Nation, which I highly, highly, highly recommend, every person should read that book. It's general about addiction, but it has a lot of focus on sexual addiction. She talks about the importance of rigorous honesty.

We can talk about that, but to really truly live that is not easy because pride gets in the way. How difficult is it to be humble? And when it comes to accountability, how difficult is it to pick up the phone on your way home and say to your wife, I left the office 5 minutes later than I should have. I apologize. In fact, I should have called you 10 minutes before when I wasn't quite out the door to take accountability for my actions.

I think accountability is something that we recognize we must do in a relationship. I believe my wife needs to know where I am all the time. Any given moment, she needs to know where I am. I owe that to her. In any way that I would want to hide that, would potentially be a trauma trigger. Is that hard? It can be, but it's critically important. And so it's simple to understand how important that really is. I think if we study that, how important is it actually to do that?

Humble, honest, and accountable. I think we are taught as little children actually to defend ourselves in situations. And part of that means learning how to lie. And even the simplest and tiniest of lies actually breaks down the confidence in a relationship. Is that something that's difficult to understand? Maybe. But it's critical that in every instance, this idea of honest, humble, and accountable is what recovery is in order to build trust again in a relationship with— that is fundamental.

Without it, we're not gonna have recovery. So if you read the 12 steps, you know, we'll have people come to meeting for the first time and they'll say, well, you know, 12 meetings, 12 steps, I'm good to go. You know, they sound simple enough when you read them. Think about step 4. How easy is it to acknowledge the character flaws that I have? Think about the idea of when I'm wrong, promptly admit it, step 10. Yeah, that sounds simple enough. You can read that step in about 5 seconds or less.

So the ideas associated with recovery, and especially as they're outlined in the 12 steps, are simple. And that's the great thing about them. To actually do them, live them, practice them, that's a lifetime endeavor because we're human. The weaknesses, the selfishness that comes along with that, that's what we're here to overcome. That's why we're on this planet. To learn how to meet the challenges of selfishness, the natural man, and then give ourselves to God. And is that easy?

It's extraordinarily difficult. Life is built that way so that we can learn. And, um, it's an opportunity and a blessing to really feel God's love through the processes of change, living in recovery, and recognizing God's love and the love of others is profound. It's a lifetime endeavor.

Tara McCausland: So not easy, very challenging in fact. However, you describe it as this is the doorway to peace and to freedom. So perhaps I'll be the one to say, but worth it, as the recipient of someone who has been blessed by The recovery of 2 individuals. It's worth it to me. And whatever it takes to find your motivation to do the work, know that there is a path and it's worth it. There is healing ahead. So before we close up, we have again some great folks that have stuck with us through this interview.

Thank you so much. And so if you want to throw a question in the chat, I'm going to just start looking at these, and I'll just go to Duke first. And you, you did actually kind of address this, Stephen. What is the role of resentment in addiction? Do you want to speak to that a little bit more?

Steven Croshaw: I'll just speak to my own experience because I felt resentment in spades the second time that I came forward. Really, she went with me to my To my therapist, she sat in those meetings with me, and when we got out of the meeting, she would say to me, "What did you learn there?" And I felt like that she was wanting to know my dedicated effort to recovery and judging on whether or not I was listening, wanted to work recovery.

So I resented that effort on her part. In a general term, when the second time that I came forward. Ril was very active in leading the way on my recovery. I resented it. How sad is that? But I felt like, okay, if she's going to take the lead, read the books, find the therapist, go to the therapy meetings with me, I felt like I was not the guy in charge, like she was the person in charge.

And I resented that. I didn't know at that point how wrong I was in that. and how limiting that was going to become in my own recovery. But I think we resent the judgment of others or the help of others if we are not accepting of that. So resentment, according to the Alcoholics, kills more alcoholics than anything else. And I think if we really start to look at ourselves, we discover that we're living a lot in a situation where we want to be judgmental of others, judgmental of where we fit into a relationship, and oftentimes that will lead to resentment.

So surrendering resentment in all of its forms is critical, and even recognizing that we are resenting is sometimes a challenge. So the Serenity Prayer comes into play. God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, and courage to change the things I can and the wisdom to know the difference. We can't change other people. We might think we want to. We might resent. Did I resent Rill for the fact that she was struggling in her own recovery and having experiences with betrayal trauma years after I had begun working my recovery?

Oh, I'm sober. When are you going to be able to forgive me and Not bring this up again. That's a problem that I would call resentment, judgmental of her and her recovery. That harms recovery. That's not taking responsibility for my own stuff.

Tara McCausland: Thank you. Drew asks, in what ways have you developed recovery resilience when hearing shaming comments from others, meaning not allowing? that shame to drive you into self-shaming?

Steven Croshaw: Well, I think in recovery, a person can deal with the negative comments. I did a podcast 6 months ago or so. I don't recall. It was one that's listened to by a lot of people, I discovered. I really didn't know a lot about it. And, um, there were a lot of comments on that podcast. Most of them were quite positive, but some of them were like, This guy's still a liar. How could his wife ever forgive him?

I would never stay with a man that had a story like that. I mean, stuff like that. And, you know, in recovery and knowing who I am and what I'm about, do I recognize God's love for me? Yes, I do. I'll go down a religious standpoint here. Do I recognize that God himself hung on the cross for me? I do. And so I know where I am and what others may think about that. Frankly, I think it's for them an opportunity to learn more.

And I don't want to be judgmental of them at all. I think they just need to learn more. And so my heart goes out to those that make negative comments. about anyone who's suffering from addiction or trauma. I think the key to that is simply knowing myself that I am living in recovery and God knows where I am. And those are the most important things. And what others think of me, I have to essentially say they just need more information.

Tara McCausland: Thank you. Uh, next question. You talked about bottom lines. In the SAL program, this fellow is interested in what are bottom lines specifically.

Steven Croshaw: Bottom lines are things that you will not do in order to stay safe. So I do not go, for instance, to a movie by myself. I don't watch television by myself. I don't take my phone into the bathroom. I never do a mindless search on the internet. I don't use any social media. The list goes on, all of these things that I choose that I will not do as bottom lines in order to stay safe. So I can make a list of things that I know are potentially triggering for me, and I can give myself a level of protection from lust triggers by choice.

Not doing social media is critical for me. Okay. That's a bottom line. So compare that with a top line. We need to talk about top lines and bottom lines together, along with boundaries. Boundaries are an if-then. If I break a bottom line, then what is the consequence of that? So a top line are things that I will do. Say a prayer in the morning for strength. Live one day at a time. I will attend a 12-step meeting at least once a week.

I will go through the surrender process whenever I am triggered or feel inadequate or have an emotional feeling that I need to actually let go and ask God for help. Those are top lines. So then I look at the boundary side of it. It's an if-then thing. There's a great explanation of top lines, bottom lines, and boundaries in the SAL book. And I invite all of you to study top lines, bottom lines, and boundaries in the SAL book.

They're a critical part of working recovery.

Tara McCausland: Thank you so much for those of you who have been here with us for our first ever live recording of the Pathway to Recovery Podcast. And thank you, Stephen, for sharing your strength, hope, and experience with us today. As many times as I've heard your story, I am grateful that you have chosen recovery. And I am again recipient of the work that you have done, that my mom has done, and encourage those of you who are here, if you're still very much in the messy middle, please go to SA Lifeline, look at additional resources, go to a meeting, and believe that as you put one step in front of the other, there is hope.

There is a path forward. But thank you again, Stephen, for your time today, and thank you all for being here.

Steven Croshaw: Thank you, Tara. Thank you for the invitation to be part of this. Thank you for your, for your efforts as a daughter to live in recovery as well and to meet the challenges of being a betrayed daughter. And so thank you for your support in my own recovery.

Tara McCausland: Grateful to support recovery. All right. Take care, everyone. Thank you so much for being here. We'll hope to see you again.

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