Trauma 101: What It Is and How It Affects Both the Betrayed and Betrayer w/ Scott Stolarick

Narrator: This is Pathway to Recovery, an SA Lifeline Foundation podcast featuring hosts Tara McCausland, who is the SA Lifeline Executive Director, and Justin B., a sex addict living in long-term recovery. We have conversations with experts and individuals who understand the pathway to healing from sexual addiction and betrayal trauma because we believe that recovering individuals leads to the healing of families.

Tara McCausland: Hey, we're so pleased that you're here with us. And before we get rolling, I wanted to remind you of the upcoming SAL 12-Step in-person conference, which will be Saturday, April 18th at Utah Valley University. Please come join us. This would be a great opportunity to get into the steps, to understand what they are, how to actually work them. Come share your strength, hope, and experience with those who are new to the SAL 12-step community. There's so much to be said for the power of connection and gathering.

And of course, you won't want to miss guest speakers, therapists Amanda Christensen and Josh Walpole, both experts in the fields of sexual addiction and betrayal trauma. You'll also hear from founders of SA Lifeline, Stephen and Ril Croshaw, and many others who are serving in our SAL 12-step program. So join us. work your 12th step, and get some momentum in your healing. Please go to sal12step.org to register. Tickets are just $15, and we hope to see you there.

Now to the show. Welcome to the Pathway to Recovery Podcast. I am your host, Tara McCausland, and I'm so pleased to have here with me guest Scott Stolarik. Welcome, Scott.

Scott Stolarick: Thank you for having me.

Tara McCausland: Can you give us a snapshot of what it is that we're going to be talking about today?

Scott Stolarick: A lot of the work that I get exposed to on a daily basis is trauma and cultivating a path through trauma and to recovery. Trauma presents itself in various ways. People come to me on one side of it that they've felt betrayed by another person for whatever reason and are very traumatized by that. And others who are you know, acting out maladaptively in their lives to try to repress trauma or keep it at bay. So a lot of my work is woven into those various areas clinically.

And I see that pretty consistently in the work that I do.

Tara McCausland: Wonderful. And so for our listeners, Scott will be speaking to trauma when it comes to those dealing with sexual addiction, as well as those dealing with betrayal trauma. And you're kind of a, if I might say, kind of a general practitioner of helping people heal from trauma. Would you say that that's true? We're talking about all types of trauma.

Scott Stolarick: It comes in all shapes and sizes and packages and origins. So, you know, I think it can present in any, any given way.

Tara McCausland: Well, before we get ahead of our skis, I just wanted to briefly officially introduce you, Scott. So Scott is a licensed trauma-informed psychotherapist who has been practicing in the state of Illinois for 33 years. He is an experienced administrator and clinical supervisor as well as a seasoned clinician. Scott has management and leadership certifications from the University of Notre Dame and Cornell University. Scott is currently the owner of Mosaic Pathway Counseling, in Gurnee, Illinois. So again, welcome. And so let's start off with, can you walk us through how you first became interested in treating trauma, particularly drawing from your experience working as a counselor in both corrections settings and apparently outpatient work with sex offenders?

Scott Stolarick: My earliest work, late '80s, early '90s, was adolescent psychiatric And then after that, I came back to Lake County, Illinois, and started working in corrections in our, in our local jail. And that was a part-time job I did for 8 years while I was looking for full-time work. And that full-time work in an unplanned way transitioned to working with sex offenders who were court-ordered into therapy, either court-ordered into evaluation and/or therapy. And through those populations, both the correctional facility and the outpatient specialized program for sex offenders, I started to see, you know, how trauma, how it plays a role in driving behavior that is not adaptive.

And that piqued my interest in it. And helped me to shape my point of view in terms of dealing with people who perhaps have come to the attention of providers for doing something that was certainly less than desirable, not considered socially acceptable, and tried to put a frame around them of not just a person who did what they did, but maybe a person who had a various amount of life experiences leading up to that, some positive and some negative, to really try to understand the person as a whole in the interest of developing relapse prevention planning.

A lot of people in the area at the time did not want to touch sex offender work with a 10-foot pole. So we were one of the providers in the area that at the time, hit the ground running and developing program as we went on the guideline of best practice standards in the country and just tried to create a program based on both accountability and support. Not everyone at the time was supportive of reinforcing the existence of trauma.

in working with sex offenders because they didn't want to give excuses or make them think like it wasn't their fault. So it was kind of a slippery slope, but both were important to incorporate. Earlier work in that population was more kind of browbeating. You know, people thought that if you got this population, your job was to, you know, really shame them into submission and It didn't really take long to figure out through looking at the literature and the practice that that didn't really work.

It didn't really prevent victimizations in the future. So I think you had to really take steps back and look at the larger, if you will, the larger mosaic and recognize that each person has a variety of pieces to who they are.

Tara McCausland: I appreciate that you were willing to To go to the place that people didn't wanna go, to be with what, in my view, are people who are very broken. When we get to a point where we're sex offending, not that we ever use our trauma or the abuse that we may have experienced as a justification or a minimization of what we've done, but I think when we can recognize that typically people that are acting out in these ways, they've experienced significant trauma themselves.

And I'm curious, before we leave this, Did you see a common thread or commonalities amongst sex offenders that you were working with from what they had been dealing with as children, et cetera? Can you tell me a little bit about that?

Scott Stolarick: Yeah, there's, I think, statistics floating around that talk about, you know, like 80% of people who commit sexual offenses or higher have been sexually abused themselves. I don't think that's an accurate statistic. I think it's smaller than 80%. However, having said that, I will say that trauma existed probably in 80%, if not more, of these cases coming from various sources: abuse, neglect, sexual abuse, you know, all kinds of different avenues. So when I think you got to understand who was in front of you and what you were responsible for treating, you could better apply a program and the various facets within the program to the person as an individual if you really took the time to know them and engage them so that you could indeed get those disclosures about who they are and the path that they traveled.

Tara McCausland: And I wanted to reiterate something that you had said. You've, you discovered that shame wasn't a productive way to try and help these people change. And I think across the board, we're coming to understand that shaming and criticism is never the way forward for people. So we've got to find a way to help people recognize the gravity of what they've done, but also know that they are valuable human beings, even in the depravity that they may see themselves in in the moment, right?

Sure. So I suspect that your early work, again, with sex offenders kind of shaped some of your beliefs and perspectives around this issue. What are some of the biggest myths or misconceptions about trauma that you encounter either in like the general public or even within the mental health field?

Scott Stolarick: Yeah, a couple really big ones that float to the top for me, I think, is, are if you can't see it, it's not there. You know, I think A lot of people have worked under that belief that, well, you know, the person doesn't look sad, they're not crying, they're not reclusive, or so therefore they're totally okay and they're not traumatized. And so I think that's certainly, certainly one of them. And I think connected to that is if they have a capacity for positive emotion, if they can be happy, if they can engage in health-based activity that they're not really traumatized and something didn't really hurt them.

Or if they don't remember it, they're not traumatized by it or can't recall the specifics of it, they're not traumatized by it. I was always frustrated earlier in my work that if someone who was victimized couldn't recall exactly what happened or was not consistent in their report across interviews, that they somehow became not credible. And so that always was frustrating because, you know, obviously a byproduct of trauma is, is your capacity sometimes to recall the, the details because your, your innate defense mechanism is probably to dissociate or, or block or run from those things.

And, and, and especially if you're talking to a child, The capacity to recall that in articulate detail is not always going to be there, especially in the short, recent aftermath of the abusive act. So there's a lot of myths out there around this that I think drive the decisions and the behaviors of people of influence, attorneys, judges, probation officers, parole officers. So that's always a tough area and always in need of ongoing education.

Tara McCausland: I think that our betrayed partners who are listening can appreciate what you just said, because I think for betrayed partners, they very often feel after discovery or disclosure that they don't know up from down for a time. They may not even be able to tell you what their favorite color is. They just have lost themselves and their world has been shattered. And so to expect traumatized individuals, especially with fresh trauma, to be able to put together a coherent timeline and story and even a history would be really challenging.

And I think that that's really actually very affirming to our betrayed partners because sometimes I think their inability to express clearly what it is that they're feeling sometimes is held against them, either by the person that has betrayed them or even helping professionals or even, you know, faith leaders, or sometimes sadly even clinicians. I think there's a lot that we need to understand about when someone is dealing with very active, fresh trauma. And maybe we can go there for a second.

What's the difference between old trauma and new trauma and how that might be affecting people? But just wanted to let our betrayed partners know that there's a reason why maybe it's hard for you to articulate to others and even to yourself what's going on.

Scott Stolarick: I think, you know, if we were to call it like recent trauma, something that has occurred in the not distant past, I think you have more symptom manifestation that is part of the daily routine, more trigger activation, more physiology connected to the abusive act versus more historical trauma. Yeah. That may have been successfully shrouded in defense mechanisms and buried underneath things over the years that might be more inaccessible, but yet capable of being activated through triggers, certainly.

But it's all, it's all there. It just may vary in terms of the form with which it is there based on How old it is, but it's there.

Tara McCausland: Yeah. And maybe help me out for a second, because again, our audience, we're dealing with people who are dealing with pornography and sexual addiction, or we have a betrayed partner listening, right? That's our primary audience. And both camps are dealing with trauma. And so if you were to speak to the person that's dealing with an addictive behavior with old trauma, Which is very often a part of the driver, right, of the behavior. How is that different than when you're speaking to someone that's dealing with fresh trauma?

Sometimes it can feel a little bit confusing, and we don't want to water down the experience of the betrayed partner saying he has trauma too. So there you're on a level playing field, so to speak.

Scott Stolarick: Starting with the person who's acting out sexually in some way, shape, or form. And a driving force behind that is historical trauma. I think the goal and the objective, we want you to become an accountable individual. We want you to become a person who's empathic and recognizing what has happened here and how it has impacted people around you. And in order to do that, We may have to access stuff that is historical that maybe you've chosen to not think about for a while, or that you've sublimated or forgotten about in order to help us understand better what you're doing now and why that's happening.

Because knowledge is power, as they say. And if you're equipped with that, you can become more accountable to not only yourself, but to those that you've harmed. And those that you may harm in the future if you're not aware and personally responsible versus somebody who's on the receiving end of it, where collaboration and engagement and trust is important and validation, validation that this is real, that, you know, you're not making up your pain. Your pain is yours.

It's personal. It's real. It's linked to something that's not your responsibility. You didn't create it. Interestingly, kind of a side note, one of the important factors in healing for people who have been victimized is how they are responded to at the time of first disclosure. It makes a big difference in someone's healing journey if the person they choose to tell, if they ever choose to tell is receiving and warm and validating versus someone who's dismissive and blames them for making it up or misremembering or being inaccurate in their descriptions.

So, so that early stage of therapy is very important because it is about building trust and Letting it be known that you as a provider are a trusted person.

Tara McCausland: And I will say amen to that. We need people to see the betrayed partner and not blame them for causing this issue in their relationship, which sadly still happens too often in the office of a faith leader, or sometimes with clinicians and other support people around them. So thank you for speaking to that.

Scott Stolarick: Oh, Yeah, my pleasure.

Tara McCausland: So let's talk a little bit about childhood versus adult coping. And you had said that when we've had trauma, that we have developed maladaptive coping skills to deal with the trauma. How do coping strategies developed in childhood trauma carry into adulthood? And why do these same techniques often stop working or even become harmful later on.

Scott Stolarick: Growing up as a child, you, if you encounter trauma either in your family, outside of your family, there's, there isn't really a blueprint of how to deal with what happened. Especially in the generation that I came up in, it, you know, you didn't talk about it. It wasn't something you dealt with. If You know, you were harmed in any way, you just pulled yourself up and proceeded forward. For example, let's say there's a child whose family has a lot of volatility, verbal, physical, whatever, between parents.

And that child's method of coping is to hold up in his or her bedroom, put music or television on loud or headphones or whatever is geared to distract and lose themselves in whatever Activity that is available to them, hence isolating and compartmentalizing and cutting off. Now, theoretically, at the time, that's pretty darn helpful. You know, that's, that's something that makes it all kind of go away. They can't hear anything, they can't see anything, and they've effectively changed the subject, changed the channel in their mind, and it worked.

Now, lo and behold, that same person grows up and becomes an adult, and they do the same thing with conflict or discomfort. They don't face it, they avoid it, they shut down, they detach, and that becomes problematic in adult life and in adult relationships. So something that you have inadvertently Carried forward from childhood clearly doesn't work for you in adulthood. And honestly, even though it did work in childhood, it didn't work work. You know, it wasn't like effective from a genuine and meaningful standpoint.

That trauma was still there. You just found a hole, threw it in there and buried it. Hmm. So that's just an example of how someone could carry forward a A skill that they felt was effective back then into adulthood. I can't tell you how many times I have a couple on my couch in therapy, and one of them says about the other that they're shut down, they don't talk, they detach. Not to stereotype, but most of the time, if it's a male-female couple, it's the male who's doing that.

And you hear when you get into the weeds on that person's upbringing that the family didn't talk about stuff, that it was forbidden to discuss these things. There was always the elephant in the room that nobody referenced. So it was worked on from a very young age and it was brought into adulthood and clearly is not working in the context of a marriage or a relationship.

Tara McCausland: Yeah, that makes sense. And maybe this feels a little bit like backpedaling, but I think sometimes we, we use the term trauma so much that people may even wonder what can be counted as trauma. Like, I've— I'm sure you're familiar with ACEs, adverse childhood experiences. And sometimes I use the term big T trauma versus little t trauma. Can you maybe give us a short mini lesson on What counts as trauma so that we're not looking at somebody's experience and saying, that's not trauma.

What's wrong with you? I think we can be maybe a little bit flippant about some people's experiences, recognizing that even if it, that may not sound traumatic to you, that could have been in that environment and situation.

Scott Stolarick: Trauma is a very, very personal thing. I think generally speaking, you could say an experience that has adverse impact that remains a part of your consciousness and unconsciousness and is brought back to you in an impeding way through triggers or repeated behaviors. And so it's very interesting. I think it's a study on trauma, or it may be just Sort of an anecdotal type thing, but you have 2 identical twins walking on a beach, same age twins, identical, and a wave comes up from the water and covers both of them up, knocks them down.

You know, everything goes scattered in all different directions and they get up. And one of those twins was so excited about the experience and how fun it was and Can't wait for it to happen again. And the other one is devastated and never wants to be around water. And these are 2 people who came from the same womb, who have the same genes and experienced something the same way, same time, but differently. So I think that's the point for trauma being just a very personal thing.

And You know, the onlooker may say, well, gee, I mean, it's kind of weird that you're traumatized by that because it really wasn't that big of a deal. But that's also subjective. You know, what's not a big deal to one person may be a big deal to another. So it's not always universally agreed upon trauma, like sexual abuse or domestic violence. We can all say, oh yeah, I get that. I understand that. But trauma often also exists between the lines and is not visible to the onlooker.

So we have to be vigilant as therapists in our awareness of its manifestation and how it changes. It can change forms. What qualifies as an ACE for one person may not for another. And our agenda isn't to categorize that for the person. It's simply to understand their own personal categorization of it. So those, I guess, are some of the commonalities I would see, but also covering that or outlining that with the fact that it's very personal.

It's very different from one person to the next.

Tara McCausland: And I'm curious if you have any thoughts about this. Have you found that there is a common theme or trait in people that have been able to perhaps experience what some might consider traumatic, but they were able to process it in a way so that it wasn't processed as a traumatic event? Does that question make sense? Is there a trait that you've seen and maybe even one that we can cultivate in our children, in our youth that could be helpful to make them more trauma resilient?

Scott Stolarick: I think resiliency is something that exists whether it's known or not in all people. I do believe in the triumph of the human spirit. I think it amazes me every day. But I think those who have reached resolution are people who are, I think, eager and sensitive and empathic to help others that have been in that situation. I think they have an awareness of when to set boundaries and protective parameters in their life. Their vigilance to keeping themselves safe is there.

Their awareness of the traumatic event is also there, but it's more a memory in the past versus something that is an impediment in life. I'm not saying that it's recalled with fondness because it isn't and won't be, but it's not like a pothole in the road. It's maybe more like a bump or just a quick flash in the pan versus like pothole, flat tire, off the road, you know, that kind of thing. And I think what helps children become more trauma resilient Is caretaker awareness, willingness to discuss things that are potentially traumatic and validate them and maintain availability, openness, and awareness to revisit that issue when the child wants to.

Seeking out therapy if that is the need is always important. So that's kind of how I would look at that. I don't know if that specifically answers the question, but that's kind of how I would see it.

Tara McCausland: Yeah. I was thinking about actually a story that my husband told me about a group of youth being on a river that he was working with. And one of the young men fell out of the raft and it seemed to be very distressing to him while there were other young men that had fallen out of the raft and they were able to be more resilient and And it wasn't quite as emotionally, again, distressing. It was just kind of a memory, right?

Uncomfortable, but it, it wasn't something that they would've looked back on and gone, yeah, that was really awful. And again, Yeah. That's not to say that we wanna minimize anyone's experience, but I know as a parent raising children in what, you know, has sometimes been called the anxious generation, I'm just always looking for ways to help my kids be able to process things in a way that's going to help them be more buoyant and resilient so that not everything that's apparently negative is feeling overwhelming.

So trauma is a word that we're hearing more societally. But again, I think we often are finding that a lot of people may not quite understand what trauma is. They may not see it in themselves or understand it in others. Why is it especially important for people to understand trauma right now, given the current social climate, the challenges that we're facing on the kinds of stressors people are facing today?

Scott Stolarick: Yeah, I think first and foremost, for people to understand that it does exist. I think on going back to the myth thing we discussed, something wasn't visible or physical or something you could see, maybe it wasn't traumatic. But I think first and foremost, to know that, that trauma is a thing, it exists, it is real, you oftentimes cannot see it. And to know that it can manifest in various ways, shapes, and forms, and to not minimize or dismiss someone's description of trauma, regardless of whether you as a person would categorize it as such or not.

And I think as the receivers of information from people who are traumatized, and by receivers, I mean parents, teachers, coaches, therapists, doctors, nurses, it's our responsibility to hear that with seriousness and validation. And to teach that it does exist and what's nonexistent or small to one person doesn't mean it is that to another, and we have to take it seriously. So I think that's how we can send a message to the masses, is that we have to be good receivers of the information.

And not dismissive.

Tara McCausland: And like you said, I think that initial response to the person that's saying, this feels really hard to me, I'm drowning. And you can say, I hear you, I see you. This has been really hard for you. Instead of again, saying, what's wrong with you? And just moving on. I think that can make a world of difference for people. Sure. Yeah. So I think we've talked in a way that I think is really helpful just to give us a broad overview of trauma, how it might be manifesting, and how we can define it.

Now let's get a little bit more specific. So because our audience listening, these are individuals that are dealing with pornography, sexual addiction, and betrayal trauma. And I am curious because we've talked about historical trauma versus fresh trauma. Mm-hmm. How might the order of operations in healing look different for these 2 different audiences?

Scott Stolarick: I think the order of operation for someone who's dealing with recent trauma would be more akin to a crisis intervention, if you will, because you know what's going on. It's very present. It's very active. We're aware of it. We know how it's showing up. So it would be the creation of an environment where we can kind of hold that and begin to develop our understanding of it and how to develop soft pads around it before we see if it has any historical derivatives.

Kind of manage that fire, put it out. Reach a place of stability, create some desensitization so that we can move forward meaningfully. And that's all based on trust and engagement. And I think someone with historical trauma is definitely about trust and engagement. And as a clinician, you may not even know it's there when the person presents. They may come in and say, I'm having trouble sleeping. Gee, I've had a couple anxiety attacks lately and So your approach to that person might be in your astute history taking.

And I'm a big believer in history taking for all individuals because everyone has a story beyond what you see in the present day. Everyone was somewhere before they're here. And so that would be more my approach to kind of engage in a curious and non-threatening exploration of the past. Family of origin, any substance abuse in the family, any mental health issues, family relations, education, therapy history, military trauma history, personal victimization. All of that kind of comprises a good history.

And oftentimes when I ask that question very very consent-oriented and very non-threatening about past victimization. The way I frame it is something that the person would consider to be a personal victimization, anything like that, that they would consider to be that. And oftentimes I'll get the person to say, you know, I haven't thought about this in many years, but I guess when I was in college, you know, blah, blah, blah. And it's a, it's a reemergence of something that they themselves brought forth but haven't thought about in a while, but were just given a stage on which to bring it forward.

Hmm. So that's kind of how, you know, I go about it. The baseline in each situation is collaboration, engagement, trust, honoring the person for who they are and where they are in that moment. And then going in the direction you need to go from there.

Tara McCausland: I think it's helpful to understand, especially if we're looking at order of operations for a betrayed partner, if they're bleeding out, we're not going to have them on the table and asking them for a full family history, right? We need— it is crisis intervention, just as you said, and helping them find safety and stability, getting their nervous system regulated versus old trauma, which is very likely driving addictive behavior. that might— questions might come up early on in their recovery work, but there is still work that needs to be done to help them establish sobriety so that they're even in a mind of recovery, right?

And they are able to do the work associated with the deep digging that has to be done to figure out why was I even acting out in the first place. So that might feel a little convoluted, listeners, but I think we get the idea that there is a difference in the order of operations when we're dealing with fresh trauma versus historical. Sure. I know our time is short. Very quickly, I'm just curious, as a psychotherapist, what methods of healing would you recommend for people that are dealing with trauma?

EMDR, brain spotting, what's kind of your go-to that you see is really effective in handling trauma?

Scott Stolarick: I think, yeah, EMDR is very good for those who choose to take that path. I'm big on informed consent when using EMDR and in general, because it's not A traditional psychotherapeutic paradigm. But I think what is essential is giving back control, giving back validation, giving back ownership. And the way that you do that is you create, as a clinician, the environment for those things to occur. You engage, However, that person is engageable. You build trust, you present in a non-threatening way and allow them to create the picture with you versus you creating it for them.

And I think you can then choose a preferred modality from that point. I think if you jump in too quickly, you're probably putting the cart before the horse.

Tara McCausland: Wonderful. Thank you. Well, this has been so good and I'm so pleased to have met you, Scott, and I'm grateful for the excellent work you're doing. Before we close up, we have to ask our bookend question, which is what would you tell someone that's just stepping on to this path of recovery versus what would you tell someone that's been doing work for a while, but might feel a little stuck?

Scott Stolarick: Well, for those starting, I would offer encouragement and acknowledge that fear and hesitation and risk exists, but to provide support for the benefits that could potentially come from taking those steps and the accountability and the resolution potentially, and the strength that exists as a result and byproduct of that bravery and courage. And for those who are already on their journey, you know, and well into it, I say congratulations. I say I'm proud of you. I say don't, don't become too complacent and think that the issues you're dealing with are not worthy of attention, but don't let them define your entirety either.

So I would kind of say that.

Tara McCausland: Thank you again, Scott. Thank you for your time and carry on with your excellent work.

Scott Stolarick: Well, you as well, and I appreciate you having me on today. Thank you so much.

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