The Drama Triangle & Navigating Communication after Sexual Betrayal w/ Dorothy Maryon

Narrator: This is Pathway to Recovery, an SA Lifeline Foundation podcast featuring hosts Tara McCausland, who is the SA Lifeline Executive Director, and Justin B., a sex addict living in long-term recovery. We have conversations with experts and individuals who understand the pathway to healing from sexual addiction and betrayal trauma because we believe that recovering individuals leads to the healing of families.

Tara McCausland: Welcome to the Pathway to Recovery Podcast. I'm your host, Tara McCausland, and I have a special episode for you today. Last weekend, we had a great presentation at our men's workshop by a fantastic therapist named Dorothy Marion on communication post-sexual betrayal. And she talked specifically about the drama triangle and how we get out of these patterns, these communication patterns that often keep us stuck in our relationships, especially relationships that have been impacted by betrayal. So we wanted to share this with you today via the podcast, but if you're interested in watching the video and viewing the slides that she showed during the presentation, you can actually access this via our new digital recovery library at salifeline.org.

And as a part of that men's workshop, Justin B., who is our other host for this podcast. He actually gave a great presentation on sponsorship. So we'd love to invite you to check out these presentations at salifeline.org. Go to Donate, and there you can learn how you can donate to receive access to these presentations as well as our 2023 conference and other wonderful educational resources. So without further ado, I'll just introduce Dorothy. She has been a therapist for 25 years with LifeStar and Circles of Grace.

She's a seasoned presenter And she'll be presenting on, what can I say, Communication Post-Sexual Betrayal.

Dorothy Maryon: Alrighty. Just to get started, I, I just want to say what a privilege I feel it is to spend a little bit of time with y'all today. The older I get, the more I just have come to the conclusion that it's really difficult to be a person, that it's tough. that we struggle and that we struggle in all sorts of ways for a long time. And I have, I have a deep respect and love, truthfully, for people that are struggling with sexual compulsivity.

It is a tough and challenging problem and way of approaching life. And I just want you to know that I really respect the efforts and the trials and All that goes with that. So I was thinking today to talk through a little bit of ways to communicate with your partner, with other people that may help communication go better. Most of you know that if you're in a relationship and there's been some betrayal there, that things can get kind of dicey.

And it's sometimes really difficult to know, how do I talk to this person that I'm connected to? One of the things that we share in LifeStar is this whole idea around betrayal and why it becomes so difficult that you have to understand attachment in order to understand the trauma that comes often from betrayal. So just very briefly, we are wired for attachment. It's how we come into the world. We as a baby, if we don't bond and attach, we know that we, that babies don't do well if they don't have that experience.

Okay. And so they struggle. You've heard of reactive attachment disorder. Those are babies that were unable for some reason, generally because of their parents, to connect and bond. But the thing that we know now that we didn't always know is that we don't outgrow that need for connection and that need for attachment. And so generally, as we become adults and we get in a significant relationship, we attach to that person. So we connect there. And what the goal is with attachment is that I can feel like I know that you're there for me.

I know that you're a priority for me. I know that you'll come if I need you. You feel that you're a priority to me. You know that I have your back, so to speak. So we form this connection and it's not always perfect and that's— it doesn't always feel that way. But ideally, that's what we— Yeah. are looking toward in a secure attachment. So what happens— so this is why when I find out as a partner that my, my partner has gone outside the relationship to have a sexual experience, and that can be even, you know, that's virtually as well, it really does a number on that attachment system.

So the person— in other words, you are my safe person and you are the person I turn to. In order to feel that security and that safety. And now I find out that you've gone outside the relationship and you no longer feel safe to me. And so as a partner, it's very traumatizing to, to have that disruption, that attachment disruption, because I'm, I'm going to turn to you, but now you don't feel safe. And now I don't know what to do.

And then I keep turning to you and then you're not safe. And so it's as a, as someone in a relationship with someone that's betrayed, it can get kind of confusing and difficult. And you can feel that pull back and forth sometimes of like, well, I thought we were okay and suddenly we're not okay. And I don't know how to talk about this and I don't know what to do with this. So another example of that in any— and it's a little betrayal trauma is a little different than other traumas because Say I'm here with my husband and my house burns down and we manage to get outside and we stand on the curb and we watch our house burn down.

Well, we're going to turn toward each other. We're going to go, there goes all our house. This is the worst. We're, you know, well, maybe we can rebuild and maybe we can make a bigger closet, but we're going to turn towards each other. And that's generally we turn toward in the— in when we're in trauma. Yeah. But with betrayal trauma, that's what happens is the person that I normally turn to, like I said, no longer feels safe.

And so women experience— and it depends on circumstances, but they often will experience trauma. I no longer feel safe with the person that I'm in love with, person that's been there for me, the person that I'm connected to, the first person that I'm bonded to. And I don't know how to manage life without that. So it takes a lot of work and a lot of healing for the partner as well as those struggling with addiction do their own work.

So with that in mind, I wanted to talk a little bit about how to make repair of that the best that you can, knowing that everybody's circumstance is different and sometimes repair is not possible. Often it is. I mean, generally, This is something that can be repaired. So I wanted to talk and just describe to you something called the drama triangle. And many of you might be familiar with it, so it'll be a review, but some of you might not be.

And I've asked Josh if he would help me with the slides. Let me just explain the drama triangle. We often— it's something that it's a way of communicating, but it's a way of communicating. There it is. In a way that we don't Generally get our needs met, but I'm trying to get my needs met when I jump into drama with another person. Okay, so we'll often refer to the drama triangle as our kind of as our child self, and we call it that because it's manipulative.

When I am in drama, I am trying to connect, I am trying to attach, but I'm not doing it directly, so to speak. And an important thing to note about the drama triangle is it is generally unconscious. People don't say, oh, I'm going to go do the drama triangle right now. And some of us have communicated through the drama triangle most of our lives without realizing, oh, there's a different way to get my needs met. Okay.

So they call it a drama triangle, and you can see the drama play out at work. You can see it play out in relationships. No matter where you are, it's not just with your significant other, but generally it will show up with your significant other. So in the drama triangle, there are 3 angles, right? So the top one, we call that the victim. And again, this isn't— I can be a true victim. I can go outside and be mugged and I am a victim.

But when we talk about the victim in the drama, It's a role that I'm playing in order to try to get my needs met. Okay. And something to note about the drama triangle, that most of us will enter the drama typically in the same place. So, and I'll explain that a little bit better as we go on. But if you think about the victim, some of the characteristics of a victim, when I'm in the role of victim, Might be that I am blaming.

It's not my fault. This isn't. I didn't do anything. It can be a sense of powerlessness. I can't help it. This it's not. It's not my fault. Victims often feel helpless. So here are some characteristics to recognize that when I'm this is when I'm in my victim role. Okay, I. If you look at that, I feel picked on, I feel not good enough, I act naive or innocent. So this is just some of the characteristics. Now, the next angle down here, and it's hard to be in the drama triangle if you don't have— and you're playing the victim if you don't have a rescuer.

And it's hard to take the role of a rescuer if you don't have somebody to rescue. Okay, so people go back and forth in relationships with one playing the victim, One being the rescuer, one being the rescuer in order to rescue the victim. But an important thing to note about the drama triangle is we move generally through all of these roles. We can go back and forth, up and down. So I may start a conversation as a rescuer, then I can get frustrated that you're not being rescued, and then I can feel like a victim.

Nothing I do is ever good enough. I try really hard and you don't take my advice. Okay. So some of the characteristics of a rescuer, if you're in the rescue role, again, obviously we're going to try to fix. We're going to step in and do things for people even if they don't need it done or without asking if they'd like us to step in and help out. As a rescuer, typically we're drawn in because we want to be needed.

Okay. So I'm— think again. Don't forget, this is about attachment. So I might feel really close to you. I might feel more connected to you, to you, if I can rescue you. If I'm in the victim role, I might feel more connected to you because you're rescuing me. The problem is it's manipulative. Okay? So as a rescuer, I am trying to get my needs met, but I'm doing it in a way that isn't direct, so to speak.

So I'm putting other people's needs first. I feel guilty about saying no as a rescuer. Yeah. And I have this overdeveloped sense of responsibility to fix the world, to rescue people. And you've got that list on there. All right. So we've got victim, rescuer, and then to fill out the drama triangle, we have what they call the persecutor. And so you might think, well, how is a persecutor trying— looking for attachment? But as a persecutor, how I know to get my needs met is to try to control you or shame you or yell at you.

Okay, so I'm trying to have in this, as I'm in persecutor, I'm trying to be in control and I feel like I need power. Okay, so some of the characteristics that you might find when people are in that persecutor role, I'm demeaning. My favorite when I go to persecutor is I'm so sarcastic and people can't, 'cause with sarcasm you can't tell, like, are they? Yeah. Do they mean that? Is that funny? Is that right? So it can be very subtle.

And not everybody as a persecutor is screaming their head off. But as a persecutor, I can gaslight, I can tease. The silent treatment often shows up in the persecutor, but I can also use it as a victim. I can give up and say, well, I'm not even going to say anything ever again about this. Or as a persecutor, I can Really do a number on that attachment. If I don't speak to you, you're going to really hustle and try to make up.

I'm so sorry I did it. I won't do it again. Okay. And so we can just go around and around in this triangle trying to get our needs met, but it's super ineffective. And one of the problems of why it's ineffective is nothing ever really changes if you're in a drama triangle with A million years ago, I went to the University of Utah and I had an hour break every day. And so I ended up watching some soap opera in the union building with a whole bunch of other people, by the way.

And anyway, the next semester I had class and then the semester after I didn't. So I went back to the soap opera. Well, nothing had changed in that time that I was away. Nothing gets resolved. Right. In a good drama. We're just going back and forth and back and forth. And sometimes it feels— well, I call it pseudo-connection because I feel connected. We have intensity, we have this experience together, but in reality, we just go back and forth and back and forth and back and forth.

How can you tell when you're in drama? So one of the best ways to tell that you're in drama— there's a couple of ways. But generally is to pay attention to the language that you are using. Pay attention to the language the other person is using, because Drama, as we said, it's kind of your Child Part. It tends to be black and white or all or nothing language. Okay, you never, you never come home when you say you're coming home.

I always have to be the one that starts the conversation. I Gosh, live with kids. I don't have anything to wear. I never get to sit by the window. Okay, so you got the black and white language. That is always a good clue that you just stepped into drama when it gets that extreme. Another way to tell that you're in drama generally is if you pay attention to your body. Drama is activating and generally you can feel it.

And the roles that we play tend to show up in different parts of our body if you're playing, if you're paying a lot of attention. In fact, sometimes you can know you're in drama By the sensation in your body before you realize that your language is kind of following that. So I'll have people say, gosh, when I feel victim, I feel it in my stomach. When I'm a persecutor, I feel it in my jaw. When I'm a rescuer, it's across my shoulders.

I mean, you can be that specific with how drama plays out. Okay. And then there's something to be kind of aware of when we talk about the drama triangle, and that is we can go into drama and be in the drama Drama triangle without anyone else being in it, meaning I can do a drama triangle all by myself. And I know the first thing up there says every role needs another role to function, but all I have to do in order to do the drama triangle all by myself is is go through those angles.

For example. Say I have an addiction and I have a really tough day at work and I get into that victim space. I feel like my boss is overreacting. I don't feel understood. I feel like my presentation didn't go well. So if I have an addiction, so I'm in the victim, it's never fair. I never get a break. I always am the one that doesn't do well. Okay, see the language? Then I go to rescuer. And generally the way I'm gonna rescue myself in order to numb that pain and to feel better is I'm gonna act out.

And now momentarily I feel like I'm out of my victim. I rescue myself by acting out. And then immediately, of course, I move right over to— And I persecute myself because I cannot believe I just did that. And I know that's not what I wanted and that's not who I am. And I did it again. And I'm an idiot and what's wrong with me? And now I'm back in victim. So you can see how that can just go on all by oneself.

Another part of this is if you think about the role of shame and addiction, and hopefully you get that part. If not, maybe that's something that can be talked about in another mini conference, is to understand that if I'm living in shame, I'm kind of shame-based, then I am walking around in the victim role because that I feel like I'm not okay and I'm not enough. And if people really knew me, they would abandon me. And that lands me in that victim role.

So I am struggling a lot to not rescue myself a lot. And that's where I think addiction, some of the cycle of addiction ramps up because I haven't dealt with and become a little bit resilient to the shame that I feel. And so those 2 play a big role— shame and being a victim. And we say sometimes, more often than not, the victim is the gateway into the drama triangle, and victim is the gateway into acting out often.

Okay, so something to be aware of. So with all of this, Paying attention to the body, paying attention to the language, knowing that it's a bid for attachment. It's just not going to get you what you need. Often it's unconscious. And the key to being in the drama is you have to recognize, oh, I'm trying, I'm manipulating. I am like— and this is a mild example, but say I'm in the victim, like, oh, I'm so thirsty.

I wish I, I wish I had something to drink. Well, if I'm in relationship to a good rescuer, they're going to go, I'll get you something. And I'm not saying that you can't get somebody a drink of water, but I'm not coming out and saying, hey, I could use a drink of water. You're up. Would you mind bringing me a drink of water? So I want— I'm hoping this is making sense. If it's not, put it in the chat and I'm sure somebody will explain it to you.

Possibly Josh. Okay. Okay. Now I want to talk about— so you're Okay. It's really good to know that that's drama. And now what do you do about it? And one of the very first things, first off, you have to recognize if it's been operating in an unconscious way, well, the first thing is to make it conscious. Conscious. You got to be aware of it. But it's not something that just goes away because you're aware of it.

People, we have to practice getting out of the drama triangle. Yeah. We have to practice recognizing when we're in it, what role we're doing, how it feels in our bodies. Okay, so generally people, when they learn about the drama triangle and how to get out of it, they still get in it, but they recognize, oh, I think I just did drama. Oh, and then they recognize it. So they recognize it after the fact. Then you get better at it and you go, you know you're doing drama, but you haven't— it's really difficult.

Yeah. to get out of. And then you recognize you're doing drama, but you get out of it sooner. And so the goal is to work your way into a healthier relationship around drama. Okay, so I want to go through some ideas, some suggestions on, okay, I get it, I'm going to pay attention to it. I'm seeing it in my own life. Now, how do I get out of it? I mean, a partner And we tend to get into drama and she and I go back and forth and back and forth.

So one of the things, and I, the first thing, there's some steps that we throw out there. And if, again, this isn't a perfect formula because relationships are gonna vary, but obviously the very first thing in order to get out of the drama triangle is you have to recognize that you're in it. Josh, can you throw that up, the slide up for that? Okay. So recognizing the drama is one of the keys. And again, when we're in drama and if you've been used to being in drama, it feels very, very real.

It doesn't feel manipulative. And so that's why sometimes paying attention to the language and the feeling in the body, you start to recognize, I'm really ramped up about this and, and I'm actually coming at the situation in a somewhat victimy or Manipulative way. As you recognize the drama, what you're going to try to do is list out your options. So you have— meaning you're going to have to pause, okay? Because drama is— you're pretty ramped up, you're in a conversation, you're going to need to take a pause.

And you're going to try to get back into what we call your adult self. So if being in the drama is your child self, getting out of the drama is your adult self. So I'm going to take a pause and I'm just going to list What in the world are my options right now? What should I do? And you're going to list good and bad and all of them because you're trying to slow things down and get into your adult brain that says, let me think about this for a minute.

I've used an example before of being in a situation where one of my kids went crazy and got really angry with me. Over a dinner situation, I won't go into the details for her privacy or his privacy. Yeah, I'll try to make it vague. But in doing so, they got they went into a victim role and then came out as a persecutor. I can't believe you did this. I needed you to do that. You always do that.

You don't pay attention. So it got pretty big, and it sent me right into a victim role. And I knew I was doing. Drama. So as I took a break and went into my own room, I started to list out all of my options. And some of them had to do with, you know, I'm never gonna speak to that person again. I'm gonna never babysit for them. I don't know. Options that weren't realistic, but they were part of the drama.

So that third step, as you look at that, it says after you list out your options, you assess the congruency of each option. Meaning, are there some options here that are congruent with my value? What? How do I get into my values out of this manipulative, angry, controlling situation? So in the situation I had with one of my kids, one of my values was relationship. It was really important to me that I kept a good and a solid relationship with this with this.

Person in my life. And one of my values was that I was treated respectfully in my own home, which I wasn't in that situation. So I, I had to kind of decide, here are my options. I can talk to this person about what it was I needed. We could work it out rather than avoid or ignore or withdraw, because those were options that were going on in my head. But what I landed on was because of my values, I felt like I needed to step in and talk about what had happened the evening before.

So if you look at that 4th one down, it says to acknowledge the risks. And people always ask, well, why would there be a risk of getting out of the drama triangle? And one of the risks is when you're in drama, it's incredibly predictable. You're just going to go around and around and around. But when you take a step to get out, Of the drama triangle, it's very unpredictable. You just don't know the outcome. That person that you've been in drama with may— the drama, which is very common, because they don't like that you've gone out, so now they're going to make it bigger.

You're going to deal with that. They may no longer want to be in relationship with you. They may get more angry or more upset. I mean, you just don't know. And another reason you acknowledge Acknowledge the risks. Remember, we had a man who was in drama quite often with his boss. He listed out his options. He assessed the congruency of each option. But when it came down to the risks, he said, I cannot at this juncture in my life afford to lose this job.

And that will be one of the risks, knowing my boss and knowing the situation. And so he had to go back and look for a different option where he could feel like he could get out of the drama without confronting or talking it through with his boss. So acknowledging the risks is really a valuable and important step in this. And then you make a choice. You say, okay, here's how I'm going to handle this situation. But one of the pieces of this is that you're able to get into your adult self and you're not going around and around with a lot of emotion.

A lot of all-or-nothing talk, but you're able to step out. And sometimes stepping out means I'm really not going to engage in this right now. Sometimes stepping out means I'm going to acknowledge this person's frustration or whatever's going on, but I'm not going to jump in. So there again, there's tons of options. Another way of looking at getting out of the drama is to think of another triangle. So Josh, if you can pull up that other slide.

So rather than— if I am in my victim, one thing that I can do in order to get out of the drama triangle is down here at the bottom, is I try to go to accountability, responsibility, ownership. And I don't mean that I take responsibility for being in a conflict with someone or in this drama, but I do take ownership and accountability of What do I need to do right now in order to take care of myself, in order to address the situation?

What do I need to do to get out of the drama? Okay. Where's my ownership in this? I might need, instead of being a victim, I might need to recognize I need to talk to someone, or I may need to do some self-care. I mean, I need, I may need. So I'm taking ownership for that. Because victim, we just— it's not my fault. I can't do anything. So this is like, actually, I can do some things for myself.

But if I'm over here in rescuer, another way of getting out of or handling the situation is to take a look at your boundaries. Is this my job to fix this situation or this person? What boundaries do I need in order to take care of myself? What boundaries need to be Internal boundaries, what ones need to be external boundaries. And then as persecutor, rather than coming at people with control and anger, are what options do we have in this situation?

How do we need to negotiate this? And we may need to negotiate self-care. We may need to negotiate boundaries. So that's another way of looking at this is how I get out of the drama. And again, if you have been in drama with Us in a certain relationship a lot. Generally, when you step out of drama, it does— it's a new dance and it doesn't feel right to the partner that's used to you being in drama.

And 9 times out of 10, they're going to up the drama in order to get you to join back into this pattern that they're very familiar with and you're very familiar with. I remember, you know, getting out of— people get out of drama and it's And a partner will say, wow, you used to be a pretty caring person before you went to therapy. Now I don't even care. Like, come back in, join me in this. I don't know how to do this thing with you over there saying, I hope this— you can figure this out, or I hope that this works out for you, or I'm sorry I can't fix this for you, or I'm actually not mad at you and I'm not going to try to control you or yell at you.

So that's one way of taking a look at that drama triangle and trying— and the goal is to pay attention Kind of going forward right now, where you get into it, what it feels like in your body, and then trying to get yourself out of it. One of the rules, so to speak, around this, if there can be rules, is if you're in a relationship and you get in drama with that person, you— one of the rules is you're not allowed to point that out to the other person.

So I can be in drama with someone and I can say, wow, you're really You're really doing the victim thing right now. For me to say that to that person, I'm definitely in the drama triangle with them. So just something to be aware of. You're on your own. You don't get to point it out. What you can do with your partner, say, you know, that argument we just got into or that situation, I think I went into drama.

I think I was in the drama triangle and I've thought about that and here's how I wish I had handled that. Here's what I've been thinking. I think I went into victim because I already don't feel good about myself and I think your tone of voice Just, I thought, man, you're just so— I'm just such a loser or whatever. But you're talking about yourself on that. Okay. So hopefully that is making sense. I, I wanna— I know I don't have a ton of time, but I'm gonna take up a little bit of time here on also explaining that there is a difference between drama and trauma.

Let me just say this really briefly. With betrayal trauma, Often partners will get into drama. But another thing that's happening often is that they are activated. They are triggered by the past trauma of finding out that things weren't what they thought they were. And that is really important to note because that's not going to be necessarily the drama triangle. That's you trying to approach your partner who is now in trauma. And there's things that you can do with that to try to create safety Okay.

And one of the things often what happens when your partner is in trauma are the emotions sometimes are really big, or they respond by withdrawing, or they're angry and they're triggered. And you walk in and you're like, I'm not sure what's going on here. Well, this seems kind of crazy to me, but trauma does create that. Big energy. So if you can recognize what's going on and not get pulled into that, then you have a chance of restoring that relationship and creating safety.

And there's just briefly, here's the ways that sometimes someone with an addiction will respond to their wife's trauma that does not help. Okay. But it's really understandable because it's kind of what's coming at you. And if you haven't done enough work on your own shame and the drama triangle, you're going to get pulled in. Okay, so some of the ways to not respond is with defensiveness, by ignoring the situation. Man, she's upset. I'm just going to ignore it.

I'm just going to go upstairs and play with the kids because I don't know what to do with this. By trying to intellectualize it or fix it. Listen, I don't know why you're that upset. It's not what you think. And there's times where explaining is important, but not when your partner is triggered. That's not going to help at that time. Sometimes we'll say betrayal trauma is like handing your partner a rock of pain. You've been doing these things.

She finds out. Now she's got the rock of pain. And your goal is to help her put that down. We don't want you carrying it any more than she carrying it, but you have to acknowledge it. So if she comes at me with defensiveness, then— or she comes at me and I get defensive, it's like me taking that rock of pain and hitting her back over the head with it. I don't know why you're going— you're never going to get it.

Okay, it gets big. But if I ignore it, it's like I'm like, what rock of pain? I don't see a rock of pain. Or if I get fixing it. Yeah. Then I'm saying, well, I'm not sure it's really a rock of pain. Let me think about it and let's talk about it so I can show you how it's really not a rock of pain that you have right now. None of these are going to help create safety back into the relationship.

So I know we, we don't have a ton of time, but I'm going to give you a little script. Okay. And all this script is, is a way of trying to approach your partner's being triggered or their trauma. And it's a way of trying to create safety. And the key to this is it has to be authentic. If you're just going through a script to get her to calm down, she's going to feel that. So it has to be authentic.

So what you're coming at is it starts with— and again, we might have it. I don't know, Josh, if you've got that. Yeah. But it looks like this. It says, the fact that— so if I'm with— if I'm struggling with addiction, my partner is upset, triggered. I got home late. I can't do this. You need to tell me when you're coming. I can't believe we're doing this again. It's super activated. You say, basically, the fact that you're so upset that I came home late is evidence of how deeply I've hurt you.

Yeah. It's evidence of what I've— this relationship, what I've done in this relationship. No wife should ever have to worry when her husband is late. And I'm sorry for that. I am really sorry. And I want to reassure you that I'm in therapy and I'm working hard. Again, I'm sorry. What can I do for you right now? You know? And she's like, well, don't come home late. And you're like, I know. And here's what happened. I got stuck in a meeting.

Next time I will call you. Okay, so you can talk about it, but it's this script that says— because what you're doing is you're normalizing her trauma response. You're saying, you know what, I have a part in this. The fact that you're so dysregulated is because of what I've done. I'm owning that, and you shouldn't ever have to even go through that, and I'm so sorry. And here's what I'm doing to try to fix this. And I'm here.

What can I do for you? And that helps calm down that activation that your partners will have often when they have been triggered back into that original trauma of I am not safe. So the goal here is to create safety. And believe it or not, the goal with getting out of the drama triangle is to create safety as well. It's to learn a different, healthier way to communicate that isn't manipulative. And you don't go around and around and around.

So these 2 are quite different. One is I'm trying to get out of this unhealthy way we're communicating. The other one is I am trying to step into a role of providing safety where you have been wounded by my actions. So hopefully that helps. I know I wanted to have a chance if there's questions or maybe to go through the chat if we need to.

Justin B.: Yes, Dorothy, thank you. We do have a couple of questions that came in through the chat. One of them, let's start with the top. I love your reference to the pause when drama is present. Can you please give a general practice that nearly anyone could apply at nearly any time to initiate the pause when agitation slash drama arises?

Dorothy Maryon: That's such a great question or comment because it's so automatic when we get activated. So to be aware of your body and to breathe is probably my first go-to for people. Sometimes in a relationship where it gets pretty heated quickly, it's a very kind thing that says, I really want us to talk about this, and I want to keep this safe, so I need to take a 20-minute break, and I promise I'll be back, but I've got to calm down so we can talk about this.

And during that 20-minute break, you don't go in and just rehash the drama. You take the time you need to calm your system down. Your nervous system needs to calm. And so you can breathe, you can listen to music. There's a lot of techniques that you can find to calm your body down. We like to teach people how to voo. You just resonate your nervous system. Look up vooing. And then you come back. Most people are familiar with the Gottmans and the stuff that they've done on marriage.

And they said when your heartbeat gets over 100 beats a minute, nothing productive is going to happen in that conversation. And so they will teach people, you've got to take a break. You've got to calm down. Just recognize that and name it. Some people have a keyword they say to each other when they're like, we got to— Yeah. You gotta take a break. Those are some ideas.

Justin B.: Thank you. If you can't bring it up, how do you help them realize that what's going on so they can get out of the drama?

Dorothy Maryon: So the biggest thing you can do is bring up that you are in the drama. That's all, you know, just pointing out, hey, you're in rescuer, you're doing the victim thing, or I think you're in persecutor, just ups the drama. Hopefully what you can do after the fact is go to 'em and say, I I think I, I'm pretty sure that conversation we just had, I think I was in drama and I think I was responding this way and here's what came up for me.

And hopefully that creates enough space that your partner is able to go, well, let me think about what I just did because— That's good. And then if you're in a good place at another time and you're not in drama, that's a great time to sit down and say, Can we talk about what just happened? Because I think we did trauma, but I'm not sure. I want to know what you think. It's just not during— it's not going to go anywhere.

Okay?

Justin B.: Okay. Next question. We have 3 more questions. Hopefully we can get through those quickly. How can I keep from not going into rescuer mode with the script?

Dorothy Maryon: I think, I think in all honesty, there's going to be both. I think it's kind of an unrealistic expectation to think I'm— I want out of this discomfort. I want my partner to calm down. And so I'm going to use the script and I want to create safety and I want to be authentic. And I think those 2 can be together. Remember, when we're in the rescue role in the drama triangle, it's manipulative. So what you're checking out when you're doing the script is your motivation.

Am I trying to manipulate just so I'm not uncomfortable because my partner's so upset? Or am I trying to create safety? So the motivations are very different. Yeah, I think there's gonna be some, oh, let's rescue all of us in this situation.

Justin B.: Let's see. Can you explain options slash negotiation as a way out of the persecutor role?

Dorothy Maryon: Yeah. So if I'm persecuting, it's all or nothing. And I'm controlling, I'm after power, and I'm keeping this person in a role. But when I'm coming at it with options and negotiation, I'm actually trying to find a solution to the situation, to the problem. So when I was in drama with one of my kids and I'm mad and I'm thinking I'm not going to talk with them, that's kind of a persecutory thing. But Options and negotiation is, hey, I'm sorry for what happened the other night.

I do that again, I'd appreciate if you'd let me know without, and I'll make sure that I don't do what, what you said that I did, that I did. And here's my negotiation going forward. It's really hard for me to be yelled at like that. So I'm wondering if going forward, if you could Pull me aside and remind me that I'm doing that thing that I did rather than yell at me. So that's our negotiation. And so we're gonna— here's some options on the table on how to handle this.

Can we negotiate around it?

Justin B.: Okay, thank you. Last question. Are there ways to alter your attachment style? If I am anxious attached, are there things I can do to lean more toward a secure attachment Yes.

Dorothy Maryon: I think the lovely thing that we're finding about attachment style is that we can change our attachment style. So reading up on attachment styles helps. It helps to know that of all the styles, attach— anxious attachment, if you have an anxious attachment style, you're, you're going to feel a change in a person much more readily than any of the other attachment styles. Okay, you are going to be more sensitive to that, to the tone, to the mood, to the body language.

And that is part of that anxious part. What you also need to know in leaning into that is we read it really correctly, but we misjudge it more often than not. We start thinking, oh, that person's mad at me. We don't give it enough time to find out why there's a shift. So learning to regulate your nervous system And this is in any of the attachment categories, is going to be a key to having a more secure attachment style.

Okay. So if I'm super anxious, I have to learn to lean into that anxiety without fixing it. If you have an anxious attachment style, you know how to fix. You're like, I know how to get out of this. I just got to talk to this person. But if you can lean into that and you're calming yourself down, you're saying, wait, wait. I'm gonna go lay on my shoes in my closet for a little while cuz this is making me so anxious.

And I'm gonna talk to somebody else about what's going on for me right now. If I have an avoidant, I have to learn, here's, I've numbed out. I don't know how to step into this. I, so there's a lot that whatever attachment style you have, you can lean into that and get more. And then with some marriage therapy, that helps too.

Justin B.: Great. Thank you. That was our last question that we've got for Dorothy. We just want to say thank you to Dorothy for, for being with us today and for this great presentation. It's very helpful. I think we learned a lot. Everyone give Dorothy a round of applause, please. Thank you.

Dorothy Maryon: Thank you so much.

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