Step 0 – Willing to go to Any Lengths…Even Connect with Others w/ Bryan F

Narrator: This is Pathway to Recovery, an SA Lifeline Foundation podcast featuring hosts Tara McCausland, who is the SA Lifeline Executive Director, and Justin B., a sex addict living in long-term recovery. We have conversations with experts and individuals who understand the pathway to healing from sexual addiction and betrayal trauma because we believe that recovering individuals leads to the healing of families.

Justin B.: Pathway to Recovery podcast is coming up on our 1-year anniversary of recording and posting podcasts. And we are really excited about that. And we are really grateful to you, our listening audience, who has continued to increase the number of downloads we have every month. And one of the things that is really helpful for getting this word out there Is by getting ratings and reviews on Apple Podcasts. So if you listen on Apple Podcasts and you find value in the Pathway to Recovery podcast, please consider going and rating and reviewing it.

We have a goal for our one-year anniversary to have 100 ratings and reviews by May first. So we've got about a month and a half to do that. So please help us. If you're listening, just run over to Apple Podcasts, get in there, sign in, and rate and review the podcast. Thank you for your support. One more thing to be aware of is that SA Lifeline Foundation now has a digital recovery library that is available to anybody who wishes to subscribe to it.

In that library, there are a lot of resources that are very powerful that you can have access to for a small donation fee of $12 per month. Some of the resources that are there on that library include talks by Dr. Donald Tilton, Jay Stringer, Dr. Barbara Steffens, Dr. Kevin Skinner, Dr. Stephanie Carnes, Michelle Burkett, and some of the recordings from the recent men's workshop. So if you want to get in and have access to this amazing library of digital resources through SA Lifeline Foundation, go check out salifeline.org/donate, and you can subscribe to that digital recovery library there as well as donate to SA Lifeline Foundation.

Thank you for your support. Welcome to the Pathway to Recovery podcast. I'm Justin B. I am a son of an all-powerful, all-loving God and a sex addict, and I'm grateful to be living in the miracle of one day at a time recovery. I'm grateful to be the host of this podcast along with Tara McCausland. This Pathway to Recovery podcast is something that brings a lot of help to me and hopefully a lot of help to you out there in the listening audience.

You know, over the next several months, well, 12 or 13 months probably, the interviews and the conversations I'm going to have will be with recovering addicts as well as with betrayed partners on each of the 12 steps. Steps of recovery, but today we're going to start off with a 13th step—not the 13th step, but step zero—and step zero, I've got to be honest, is something that I never really thought about until just the last couple of weeks when I was asked to do this and start with step zero.

And as I reached out to a couple of groups in my network, I had Brian reach out to me and say, "Hey man, you still need to do step zero because I'd love to share on that." And so before we get started on step zero, Brian is here with me. Brian, why don't you introduce yourself? Share a little bit about yourself. Why you're in these rooms of, of SAL, and, and we'll get into the conversation.

Bryan Epp: Thank you, Justin. Yeah, I'm Brian Epp. I'm a, I'm a sex addict, and I have been dealing with pornography and masturbation my entire life since I've been 8 years old. Just turned 43, so it's been a long road to recovery. I came to SAL the first time because I wanted to save my marriage, and That was 2 and a half years ago, and it's been a struggle for me. I recently had another episode of being caught and discovered, and so brought me back to SAL.

This is a different round for me. I feel like it's going to be a little different this time, so I'm excited.

Justin B.: Thank you, Brian, for sharing that. I mentioned in the opening that I really hadn't heard much, learned much, knew much about a concept of Step Zero, or at least a formal concept of Step Zero, until the last little bit As I've been reading a little bit more about it and trying to, to dig in. And as I've read into it, I've realized, oh yeah, Step 0 is what got me into the rooms in the first place. Before I talk about what I've learned about it, Brian, why don't you share what your understanding of Step 0 is right now?

Bryan Epp: So my understanding right now of Step 0 is, is building the community, building a connection with, with the men in the groups. reaching out, finding members of the groups that I can connect with on a, on a deeper level than, than just a weekly meeting. And I really had no concept of Step Zero prior to about a month ago. And I started asking when I heard about Step Zero and people mentioning it in groups. And I had a few brothers give me that explanation.

And so I've kind of just ran with that.

Justin B.: And what does building a community mean to you? How does it look different this time around? Like you said, hey, this looks different this time around than the first time.

Bryan Epp: So for me, it, it's building relationships. I've spent so much time isolated in my life, especially around this addiction. I don't talk about it with anyone, you know. And so for me, building that community is, is building friendships. It's building relationships that people I care about, people that care about me, that we can connect on a On a level that's not surface. It's, it's sharing and listening and, and just that connection, that deep connection with one another through our experiences.

Justin B.: Yeah, I love that. And I love that perspective you're bringing in here. As I've done a little bit of study, one of the places that I went to was in the Big Book of Alcoholics Anonymous in Chapter 5. It's a chapter entitled How It Works. And I'm just going to read a little bit here. That that brings me into my my understanding currently of step zero. Our stories, and this is talking about those people who wrote this book, so the first 100 members of Alcoholics Anonymous who who found long-term recovery.

Our stories disclose in a general way what we used to be like, what happened, and what we are like now. And then the book turns and speaks to the person reading the book, the newcomer, and it says. If you have decided you want what we have and are willing to go to any length to get it, then you are ready to take certain steps. And I think what you talked about there, Brian, is creating a community so you can find people that have what you want, and then you become more willing to do what they do in order to get what they have.

Does that ring true to you? What are your thoughts on that?

Bryan Epp: Yeah, so a lot of the people that I've been reaching out to have a year or more sobriety in, in the rooms. And so it is their perspective that I gain. It's, it's going through, asking questions, and finding men that I look at and say, that's the life I want. I want to live in a healthy, positive recovery. And I see people that are doing that. And through questioning, through getting to know them, I can see the things that I need to Yeah.

Justin B.: So as you have made those connections and reach out to these people with, you know, a year-plus sobriety, what are some examples of questions you ask them, things that you want to know of what they do that you might be willing to go to any length to get it?

Bryan Epp: Something that really comes to mind is, is going to a CSAT therapist. And, and because I'm with my wife and there's that, I want to make this work in our marriage. It's those questions of who did they go to? What's their experience been like? You know, have they— did they go to couples counseling or did they go to individual therapists? Things like that so that I can get a better understanding of what I need to do to be more active in that process.

I know in the past I let my wife kind of control where we were going with our therapy and And I was very passive. I was very willing to do the work, but wasn't— I wasn't the one pushing and getting answers and finding therapists. So it's been really helpful on that side of it.

Justin B.: And that brings me back to the phrase willing to go to any length to get it. So what has changed now from a few years back that makes you more willing to go to any length to get it and maybe not be passive in this and not just let Well, you brought up your wife, let your wife lead the way, but you need to do things for yourself. What's changed?

Bryan Epp: I think one of the biggest changes for me is that as I was reading and doing some study in the books, that I had to admit that I wanted to stop this for a long time, and I'm completely powerless when I try and do it alone. And so I think my willingness comes to go to any length because in the past I've always thought I can do this on my own. I can take care of this.

I can stop this. And I think that that's been something I've had to accept is that I'm not able.

Justin B.: Brian, that's very powerful. And I think that's a place to be. I think that's one person's or many, maybe many people's definition of rock bottom. I can't do this. I've tried everything I can and I can't. And that brings me to one of the readings we do very often, either an opening or closing reading in SAL, and it comes from page 202 of the White Book of Sexaholics Anonymous in What Is a Sexaholic and What Is Sexual Sobriety.

And I'm just going to read a little bit of this. This is in the last paragraph of that reading. Until we really wanted to stop but could not, we did not give ourselves to this program of recovery. And then skipping on a little bit, this program is for those who know they have no other option but to stop. and their own enlightened self-interest must tell them this. No matter what my wife tells me, no matter what my, you know, my parents, no matter what anybody else, my ecclesiastical leaders, no matter what a judge tells me if I'm going to jail for this, until my own enlightened self-interest tells me this, I'm not going to stop.

So do you feel like you're at that place right now where your own enlightened self-interest is there?

Bryan Epp: Yeah, yeah, I really do. I feel like Something that has really been coming up for me is regardless of what happens, I've always been so focused on the outcome that I want my relationship to work. I want to be in recovery. I want to have no more problem. Letting go of that outcome and just saying, I'm powerless. I can't stop this on my own. I have to do whatever it takes. And regardless of outcome, I have to take each day and do what I have to do.

And yeah, it's been amazing to let go of the worry of that outcome and the thoughts.

Justin B.: No, that's good. So Brian, you mentioned to me as we got started here that you and your wife are in the process and in the middle of a 90-day physical separation from each other because of this addiction. During this time, yes, that's a very painful thing to do, but what are some of the lessons you're learning about yourself, about the powerlessness, the unmanageability, the, the things that need to change in your life?

Bryan Epp: So this 90-day separation at first brought up a lot of fear and anger in, in me. And I think through this 90-day separation, we're about halfway through, and I've really learned that it was needed for me to do this for me. And I, I've heard a lot of people talk about, you know, it's about doing it for yourself and not for anyone else. And, and I've even said that before and I've, I've believed it, but I've said that out loud, but in my mind I've always thought, I'll do this just so that I can get to the outcome of being together.

And part of that was my— the last time we tried to do a separation, me and my wife didn't commit fully to it. So we still had some contact, we still had some, and I, I let that give me like a false sense of hope. And I, and it really, I was really focused on the outcome. This separation's been a little different because there has been no contact. Yeah. And it's really given me the time that I needed to see that this is about me.

This is about my addiction, my role in, in the defects that I have. You know, it's given me time to turn my life to God and to really focus on those things, not so much on our marriage and where that goes from here. And I think that through doing that, it's given me a greater sense of my part in this. And not so much as a couple, but just as, what do I want? You know, what do I want if my wife and I don't make it?

Am I still going to be coming to these rooms? Am I still going to be doing the work to live a happier life? And I think that that question is being answered, you know, every day for me.

Justin B.: Thank you for sharing that, Brian. Now, you mentioned this is a no contact, and both of you have committed fully to this. In your current experience, what does no contact mean? Is that no phone, no text, no nothing, or is that just no physical interaction? What does no contact mean?

Bryan Epp: So yeah, so no, no physical contact. And we have kids, so there is some communication, but it's very limited to those things. It's very limited to, hey, the kids have this, or, you know, it's our planning, finances, things like that that have to be done. But other than that, there's no— if we get to a point where we talk, text too much, we'll shut it down and say, hey, that's past our boundary. And then we just shut the conversation down.

Justin B.: And in this process, you mentioned that you are spending time with your higher power, with God, trying to figure out, okay, what is it that really I need to learn here? What is it that I really want moving forward? How is this going to look? And really giving that over to God in that process. I mean, you're, you said you're about halfway into it. How has your relationship with your higher power, with God, changed in the last 45-ish days and halfway into this?

Bryan Epp: Trusting in his will. As I pray, as I go through my day, and as I journal about my prayers, I've really found that he will take care of the outcome. If I trust in His will and am honest, as long as I'm honest in everything I do, I've really got this sense of peace from the outcome. You know, I've just found so much peace from allowing Him to take over. And just the only thing I have to do is be honest.

And that brings such peace to me.

Justin B.: Yeah, and that honesty is such a key part. You know, in recovery, they talk of 3 essential pieces of recovery. Honesty is one of them. Willingness is another one. And open-mindedness is the other. So those 3 are key and essential to recovery. As you are learning and practicing rigorous honesty, radical honesty, how is that changing your perspective of, of how things are in life? How is that allowing you to see things maybe more clearly?

Bryan Epp: I think it's in little, little ways where I'm, I'm seeing positive outcomes as I'm being honest, as I'm, I'm Having validation from the way situations have turned out and the way that my life is going, the peace I feel through being honest, through connecting with other people and talking about my story. And it's almost as if God is just giving me little bits at a time of like, here you are, fear. You had this fear, you expressed it, you talked to somebody about it.

Yeah. And here's the peace that you get from that. And it's, it's almost just little, little bits of validation from God that as long as I do what he tells me or what I feel I need to do, he'll take care of the rest and the outcome will be positive. And I think through those situations, I'm gaining more trust. I'm gaining more faith and it's really helping me.

Justin B.: Yeah. And you mentioned the outcome will be positive. The outcome will be positive. What does that look like? I mean, have you already painted a picture of what a positive outcome will look like? Or are you throwing yourself at God and saying, whatever the outcome is, you've got a plan for it?

Bryan Epp: For positive, I guess I mean more just like a peaceful outcome for me. Like, I'm at peace regardless of what happens. I feel at peace. And I think that just comes from being honest. It's like, even if so with my wife, if the outcome is a divorce, I know that I will walk away with my head like, hey, I was honest. I can take that and move forward versus I tried to manipulate the situation by lying, by doing all these old ways that I had and it didn't work out.

I would still walk around with the guilt that I know I was manipulating. And so I think for me, it's just that positive, peaceful feeling to whatever the outcome is.

Justin B.: Man, that's powerful. Thank you for sharing that, Brian. I know that in my own situation, if, if that, if I were to be in your shoes right now, that would be a difficult place to come to. And I'm grateful that you are sharing that you were there and, and striving to remain there. How do you think that you'll be able to maintain that attitude and not get complacent or not get bitter if things don't go how you hope they do?

And how can you keep that perspective moving forward?

Bryan Epp: I think the stronger that I make my connection with God, the more that I put effort into that connection, I feel like that's what helps. That's what helps me not worry about that if things go bad, because I know that between me and him, nothing will. You know, I feel like as long as I put that honesty out there, and I've had that feeling Get like inside, like it's almost like he's speaking to me that way.

Like, this is what I want you to do. Just be honest and everything will— you'll be at peace. And it really has taken a lot of that worry of like, what, what if this doesn't work out? How am I going to handle it? How am I going to stay on the path that I'm on if things go sideways or if things go south? And that's the answer I always get is As long as you're honest, it'll be okay.

Justin B.: And Brian, thank you for sharing that. While this conversation that you and I are having are about you and your experience, I would also like to ask a little bit without you speaking for your wife about what she's doing in this process. Is she also working her recovery? Is she doing similar things in her life that's trying to put her connection with her higher power above everything and maybe growing together?

Bryan Epp: Yeah, it's hard because I'm not sure exactly what she's doing. I do know that she is working on her recovery. I know that she's in groups, that she is trying to do her part in understanding all of her own trauma with this and, and working through that. So I don't know details or specifics, but I know she has therapists and people that she leans on. Good.

Justin B.: And does that bring you peace knowing that she's also doing things on her end to try and heal?

Bryan Epp: It does now.

Justin B.: It does now. I'm going to dig there. Tell me, tell me what you mean by that. Yeah.

Bryan Epp: So for the longest time, I, it, that worried me that she was going to these rooms with people. And I felt like I was going to be like bashed in a way as the betrayer, that she was going to get this, like, it was almost like a hate group to me that she was going in and they were going to just start talking about all the bad things that the partners have done to them. And then she would start talking about the bad things that I've done and the ways that I've treated her.

And I felt like it would just, she would get so fed up and, and all that anger and negativity would spread into our relationship. That was before. I think now I have a sense that she is getting peace from that, that she's getting the fact that she's not alone. The same thing that I get out of groups and getting, get out of connection is that I'm not alone in this and that she doesn't have to be alone.

And so my thought now is that she's getting hope. And that she's getting peace. Yeah.

Justin B.: And I think that goes back to how you defined your understanding of step 0 in this and not speaking for her, not speaking for anybody else here. Maybe that's also something that is helpful in the betrayed side, that when a community is able to be found and connected with and willing to do, hey, this person looks like they're healing from the trauma they've experienced through betrayal of from their spouse. I want what they have, and I'm willing to do what they do.

And I think that's another, just one more way to unify or at least come closer together as, as couples. Do you have any other thoughts or maybe words of experience that you'd like to share with us?

Bryan Epp: I would just say that I think it's important for both parties to do work. From my experience, it was the first time I went to SAL, I, I felt like I was the only one that had to do work. Like, I'm the one that has the addiction. I'm the one with the problem. I didn't truly understand all of the hurt that she was going through and all of the trauma that she was going through, that she really needed help and a community to help with that.

And it wasn't until I started doing more research and learning more about the trauma that she has because of it and how important it is for her to get help and heal. Because it's really hard for me to be that person that she gets healing from at first. And so I think for her to get healing, it's, it's through community, the same way as it is for me.

Justin B.: No, that's powerful. Thank you. So, Brian, you've mentioned that some of the things you've been doing and working on, you've got qualified therapy, you've talked about radical honesty, you've talked about community. Are you, are you working the steps with a sponsor? What does that look like now in, in the rest of the areas of recovery?

Bryan Epp: Yeah, so I'm, I am, I do have a sponsor right now that I'm currently working step 0. I'm currently just getting phone call, phone list contacts. I'm making sure that I'm making daily phone calls and, and I'm having weekly calls with him. And then we are going to start working on step 1. And I think it's, for me, it's been so much better to have this slower process and to take time with each step. For me, last time I was in, I jumped straight to step 4.

I, and I, in a way, I really didn't, but in my mind, I was doing a disclosure to my wife with a therapist and I skipped getting a sponsor. I skipped Turning my will over to God. I skipped admitting that I had this problem that I couldn't control. And so for me, I'm excited to take my time. I'm excited to have this contact list of people that I can call when things aren't going well and know that I have a community behind me of people that care, people that want to help, that are willing to be there for me when I have questions.

Justin B.: Excellent. Love that. And as I was doing research on step zero, I came across something and I'm gonna, I'm gonna read a little bit of this that I think you referenced there a little bit and that I'd like to put out there as an invitation to others who are, you know, maybe in that place of step zero. This is from a guy who was an Alcoholics Anonymous, like, circuit speaker. His name was Joe. He carried a powerful message.

And he passed away several years ago, but he used to use the term step zero in his talks. And he said that, that this is when you have received the grace of God to stop acting out, but have not worked the steps yet. And then he goes on and he talks about how long can one stay sober without working the steps. And further, he says, I think relapse is when you are living at step zero and the grace period runs out and the addict acts out again.

So one of the things that I would like to encourage, and you're already doing this, Brian, but I'd like to put this out there. Just having that grace of God to say, oh, I've hit my bottom, I'm going to stop acting out, and I'm just going to recognize that. I don't think that that lasts very long until I get into the steps and build a relationship with God, continue to improve my conscious contact with God and understand God a little bit more.

And then that grace period continues to extend. Do you have any thoughts on that as I shared that with you?

Bryan Epp: Yeah, I was just thinking that if I was to be just saying, oh, I'm, I'm having that grace of God and, and not working and not being active in my recovery, I know from past experiences that that's, that leads me right back to my addiction. For me, it's being very passive and And it, it's not surrendering that. It's not taking that first step of accepting that I can't do this on my own, you know. And if I'm just admitting that I have a problem and not willing to do work to fix that problem, and not, like we said earlier, not being willing to go to any ends to fix the problem, I'm just willing to admit it, and that's it, then I'm going to relapse.

I'm going to live in that state of relapse.

Justin B.: Yeah. Brian, you mentioned when I, when we first connected about doing this, you sent me a little bit of a bio. And in that bio, you talked about your first time in the rooms in SAL, you mostly sat in the back, you know, stayed off camera, didn't really participate much. How is that changing today in this time around?

Bryan Epp: So I think the biggest change for me is, is getting a sponsor was, was the number one thing. And then I have found so much more joy and happiness of going to meetings as I meet the people in the meetings. outside of those meetings, if that makes sense. But by having contact and conversations on the phone with, with guys in the groups, when I'm in the meetings, I'm so much more comfortable to share. I'm so much more comfortable to give my opinion or my experience because I know the people on the other side of the Zoom call.

I know a little bit more about them, and the more that I know about them and the more that I talk to them, it's almost the more comfortable I feel. So the more open and vulnerable I can be in the meetings. And then when I walk away from those meetings, it wasn't just like, well, I got on the meeting for an hour, that box is checked. You know, it's, I really feel that I had connection. I feel that I learned something.

I feel that I shared with somebody something that I would never have shared in the past.

Justin B.: Beautiful. Beautiful. So before I get into a couple of closing questions, I've got one more question before I get into those closing questions. And that is, are there any other words of wisdom or any other things that, that you think we should touch on about step 0 that we have not yet talked about?

Bryan Epp: I just think that it's so important to realize that isolation, for me, kept me in my addiction. And that through connection, And through openness and gaining friendship, it makes the biggest difference for me.

Justin B.: Right. Love it. All right, 2 quick questions merged into one. What bits of advice from your own experience, strength, and hope would you give to the newcomer coming into an SAL meeting or any other 12-step meeting for the first time? And what bits of experience or maybe a request would you have to somebody who's been in the room a long time and maybe fizzling out?

Bryan Epp: I would stay in the parking lot. I have found that those parking lot meetings, whether, you know, the first time I went to a meeting this time through the SL program, I stayed in the parking lot. That's where I got my sponsor. That's where I learned through asking questions how to get a sponsor. I didn't know how to reach out and get a sponsor. And through that parking lot meeting, I found the answer. I've also seen that through those parking lot meetings, the newcomer that stays gets a lot more information from that part of it.

I think the groups do a great job of explaining it whenever there's a new member, but I think that if those new members stay into the parking lot, they will get so much more out of it. It's the place where you can ask questions and find answers. And for the people who may be fizzling out, it might just renew that, that spirit or that this is what it's about. Yeah. It's about connecting. It's about, you know, enjoying the groups and enjoying those friendships.

And so I think sometimes in groups we get, you know, a little bit checklist, I think sometimes. And I think those parking lots kind of break that up.

Justin B.: Love that advice. I love to stay in the parking lot. Good stuff. And for those who are like, hey, what the heck's a parking lot meeting? So after a meeting closes, people hang around, whether it be on Zoom, whether it be in person. Some people hang around and just talk, ask questions, answer others' questions that come to mind, and and just go deeper into things where it's a less formalized setting. There's crosstalk allowed. There's all sorts of stuff where you can just jump in and say, "Man, explain that deeper.

I'm I'm lost. I want to understand more." It's a good place. So great advice, great experience, strength, and hope, Brian. I really appreciate you being willing to share that with us. Like I said earlier, step zero was was a concept that I had never put my head around. Until recently, and Brian, you're helping me do that. I'd never thought of it this way, but you're you're talking about making connection, recognizing that I can't do this on my own, and that I can become willing to do what other people have done to get what I want is really powerful.

Thank you for your time and your willingness to share, and if you wouldn't mind joining with me, taking us out with the SAL twelve-step. Closing remarks here about work it, you're worth it. You good with doing that with me? Yep. Yep. All right, everybody. Keep coming back. It works when I work it. So work it. You are worth it. Work it. Work it.

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