Step 2 – Love, Hope, and Trust w/ Harvey E.

Narrator: This is Pathway to Recovery, an SA Lifeline Foundation podcast featuring hosts Tara McCausland, who is the SA Lifeline Executive Director, and Justin B., a sex addict living in long-term recovery. We have conversations with experts and individuals who understand the pathway to healing from sexual addiction and betrayal trauma because we believe that recovering individuals leads to the healing of families.

Justin B.: Welcome everybody to the Pathway of Pathway to Recovery podcast. I'm Justin B. I'm a son of an all-powerful, all-loving God and an addict and grateful to be one of the hosts of, of this project that we're doing at SA Lifeline. And right now, as, as you may be aware, we're starting to go through the steps and we're on step 2 here. And I'm really grateful to have as my guest here, one of my heroes in recovery and one of my heroes as it comes to step 2.

Harvey E. from Toronto. Harvey, why don't you take just a second, introduce yourself? Yeah.

Harvey E.: First of all, thank you, Justin, for inviting me to, to join you today. I am Harvey E. and I am a grateful recovering sexaholic, a good person worthy of recovery, and a child of God. And I am a 69-year-old Orthodox Jewish dentist in Toronto, married with 5 children, married and 20 grandchildren. I am same-sex attracted and my acting out behaviors were all about that for 35, more than 35 years of my marriage. And today I'm grateful to be 10 years and about 4 months sober at this point, and I'm grateful for every day.

Justin B.: Awesome. Thank you so much, Harvey. So grateful to have you here. You know, my personal story in recovery took a radical shift when you and I had a conversation about, I think it was about 4 years ago about Step 2 on a different podcast that I was doing at that time. Your experience with Step 2 really helped me open my eyes to a lot of different things that honestly has changed the trajectory of my recovery in a massive way.

And I'm so grateful for that. And we're going to talk a little bit about that today, or we'll talk about Step 2, whether we go back to what we discussed then. Or not is we'll, we'll let that conversation flow as it is. But what I wanna do before we get started is just read what step 2 is, and we'll talk a little bit about, you know, where that falls in the steps, how that works, and, and your experience, strength, and hope, Harvey, when it comes to step 2.

Step 2 reads, came to believe that a power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity. So Harvey, why don't you just take a second and riff a little bit on that, and then we'll dive into some of the specifics of step 2.

Harvey E.: All right. So yeah, I happen to be very big on looking at the words in a step and trying to actually define them and understand them and which words in that second step are the important words that I really need to concentrate on. And interestingly, the first word is not came or came to believe. Yeah. I came to believe is kind of an esoteric thought. I don't know sure what that even means, but, but the word that is, I think, the most important word in the whole, in the whole step.

Justin B.: Interesting. Such a small conjunctive word. Talk to us why.

Harvey E.: Yeah, because you kind of would've expected it to say, came to believe in, and yet it's not in, it's that. So if I come to believe that, that means that's kind of like saying I came to believe that Justin would show up today to do this interview, that the world was gonna unfold the way it should. It's a belief that something is going to happen. It's an event. It's a belief in, in, in something happening. Mm-hmm.

I, I don't care. I don't need to believe necessarily in God. I think I did that already. Most of us, even if we're atheists, we don't want to admit it, but we believe something. But to believe that, and then what is it that we want to believe? I want to believe that the God of my understanding, my Heavenly Father, my God and my Father in Heaven, Jesus, whoever that might be, Allah, is, you know, wants to restore me, could and wants to restore me to sanity.

That is what I want to believe. It's an actual coming to believe that something is going to happen, that, that God wants to restore this little child of God, Harvey, to sanity. You know, so I think that word, that is really, really important. And I think the other word, of course, that, that equally, at least as important, is the word sanity. And you notice that it doesn't appear in step 1. Which is kind of interesting. We only get to step 2 and then we realize, wait a minute, if God wants to restore me to sanity and is willing to do that and would restore me or could restore me to sanity, that means I must have somewhere along the line admitted I was insane.

Otherwise, I don't need to be restored. Like, if I'm being restored to sanity means I wasn't sane sometime before in the past. Something needs to change. I'm going from insane to sane. That's what he's restoring me to. So even though in the first step we talk about powerlessness and unmanageability, I think that again, as Bill W. often did, he changed words. He, he was a wordsmith. He liked to play games with words. Mm-hmm. You know, shortcomings become defects of character.

You know, do they really mean anything differently? I'm not sure. Maybe. But a lot of times he speaks about God and he calls him the creator or all kinds of different names for the same thing. And I think that here, powerlessness and unmanageability translates into insanity. Hmm. And I, and that can help me when I go to this step. I can, in step 1 and make sure that I'm in touch with how insane my life was so that I can appreciate what God wants to do for me in step 2.

Justin B.: Yeah. So, you know, a lot of people bristle at that term insanity or re— restore me to sanity and ensuing. That I was insane or am insane. How do you address that in a way that, you know, somebody who says, I'm not insane, my life is somewhat put together, you know, I keep a roof over my head, food on the table, I have what I think are healthy relationships, and I think I understand how the world works to some extent.

Talk to me a little bit about that, that insinuation of insanity in those situations.

Harvey E.: Right. So first of all, I think we are in a way at a disadvantage being a process addict to lust, to sex, to those things. If I was an alcoholic, the insanity of my life would probably have hit me in the face a lot sooner and a lot more, you know, profoundly because I would've had a near accident. I would've killed somebody in a car, God forbid. I would probably not be able to keep a job.

I may not have a roof over my head. All of the things you just discussed in a process, addictions like food or sex or gambling will get you eventually, I guess, more quickly because there's a financial ramification, of course. But often, I mean, I spent millions of dollars in my sex addiction. So again, I could have lost everything that way too. But many of us in the sex addiction world, like you say, seem to have our lives going okay.

And we would, and we bristle, like you say, at the thought of being insane. But so I try to focus in on things like, how do you feel about perfection? You know, most of us are perfectionists as part of our addiction. It's a piece of that addiction. And perfectionism is an insanity. Because nobody that I know of in this world is ever going to be perfect, ever has been perfect. You know, if you believe in a perfect God came to earth, maybe then, but not since.

And so we are not capable of ever getting to perfection, and yet we drive ourselves nuts thinking we're supposed to be and we have to work at it. And then we get into the toxic shame of not having achieved that. That's insanity. I mean, and that's just one piece of insanity. I think insanity, I certainly try and I think I succeed at showing my sponsees that man was meant to live on this world with agency. And not having agency in your life in whatever way that Manifests, and certainly it manifests in my lust template and falling into lust and relapsing.

That speaks to a lack of agency that I've lost my choice. And when I lose choice, I'm insane. I need to accept that. So that's a big piece of the insanity. Living with an inner critic that talks to me for days and days on end. Relentless beating me up. That's not normal. That's not sane. And most of us have these inner critics that drive us nuts. For free rent in my brain. And I, I've thrown him out.

You know, he gets to talk to me for a few seconds to tell me what I might have done wrong. I think there is a place for the inner critic. God wouldn't give me an inner critic if I didn't need one. So I do believe we need one the same way we need to feel the heat when our, as a little boy, we touch our finger to the hot burner when we get up on our, on a chair and our mommy is cooking and we are accidentally touch the burner because it's red and it's sweet and it looks cute.

And then we burn our finger and that's supposed to tell us something. It's an important lesson. We probably will never do that again. Hmm. You know, and I think the inner critic is meant to do that too. There's about 10 or 15 or 20, 30 seconds when the inner critic can tell me what I could have done better. You know, I lashed out at my wife for something I didn't need to do. And he wants to tell me that, but he doesn't have to sit there and whip me for the next 3 days.

for something I did. That's, that's abuse. And if the, my, if the Children's Protection Agency could hear my inner, inner critic talking to me, they would've, you know, taken him away a long time ago. Yeah.

Justin B.: Oh, that's powerful. Thank you for sharing that about the inner critic and, and the insanity of allowing that inner critic to whip me and beat me over hours and days. You know, sexual addiction, Affects, yes, us, the addict. It also affects those we love. And SAL, part of our program is that we invite the spouse of the addict to recover. And that's in pretty much all fellowships have a very similar thing. How does Step 2, and with us being the addict, without trying to preach or say, hey, this is how it is, what is your understanding of how Step 2 affects the spouse of an addict and how that Applies to them also.

Harvey E.: So I think step 2, the way it was meant to be done and lived, would want us to enter into a new and very personal relationship with a God, something that many of us, if not most of us, had not had prior to coming into this program and starting the steps. If I'm a sponsor, I'm kind of like a dating coach, you know? And first I have to, when I meet somebody who wants to date, you know, I want them to first of all get outta their own heads, stop being egotistical, you know, stop putting up that shield that protects them from allowing people to see who they really are.

Because if they really want to date and get married, they have to be vulnerable. They have to be honest with the person they're dating. And I think the first one we need to date is God. So we need to find the love and find love for God and find God's love in us. And I think that after we've done the work of smashing the ego, as the Big Book will talk to about, we need to enter into a relationship, a personal relationship.

And that personal relationship requires us to talk to God and then let's shut the heck up and listen to God. And, and to believe that he truly loves me unconditionally. And unconditional love is something that, again, there's another piece of insanity. I live in a world where unconditional love was unheard of before I got into program. There's another, that's going back to that question that you just asked me before. Conditional love is where I lived, you know, and to find an understanding that God truly does love me unconditionally.

Yeah. I don't have the power to screw that up. There's nothing I can do that will take God's love away from me and stop him from loving me. And it's very much the same. What do we see in our own lives? Hopefully we live in a world where if we have children as parents, we have an unconditional love to our children. Hopefully. I mean, that's the closest thing we get to what I'm talking about. And I think all of those, that, that, that developing that relationship to God and him with me changes who I am.

And that, that starts to give me the opportunity to love others, to see that child of God in every human being and appreciate that love is for everyone. Love is for everything. That's what love is. If I'm going to find love in God, and take that on, I need to start treating everybody that way. And of course, my spouse should hopefully be the first person, one of the first people that I start to feel and treat differently.

Mm-hmm. And as part of that living amends, I think that should be something that manifests pretty quickly if I'm starting to treat myself, you know, again, Biblically, if I, if I can just, you know, mention in, in the book of Leviticus, we see clearly the message that, you know, love your neighbor as yourself. Mm-hmm. And it didn't, just doesn't say love your neighbor. Why did it say love your neighbor? Love your neighbor as yourself, I think speaks to the understanding that I need to love myself in order to love my neighbor.

It's a prerequisite. And again, here's an insanity piece, right? Most of the people that I've ever met in addiction did not love themselves. They were into self-esteem. They were constantly comparing themselves. I call it, I call self-esteem other-esteem because it's about how I compare to everyone else. You know, I look at my tests and I got 100%, and if I only got 80%, somebody else got better. I feel low, you know, and then I have to puff myself up to make myself feel better or push somebody else down to make them less to me.

Self-esteem is all about feeling special and better than average. And mathematically that can't, you know, everybody can't be better than average, right? That's just mathematically doesn't work. Self-worth doesn't require me to be compared to anyone. It's about me. And as a child of God, I have self-worth built into my system. The peace of God that I, that I believe lives in me, which the Big Book speaks about on page 55, deep down inside each man, woman, and child, you know, that, that's here.

So I have that self-worth. And having self-worth instead of self-esteem and learning to love myself again translates into the way I treat others because now I can love someone else in a way that I never could because now I'm learning to love myself.

Justin B.: Very powerful. Thank you, Harvey. So I want to come back at you a little bit here with a couple questions, and I think you probably have a similar experience. You mentioned earlier, you're an Orthodox Jew. You grew up in your religion, active, continued active in your religion throughout your adult life, even while deep in addiction. And I have a very similar story. And I think many people who listen to this podcast have a very similar story.

We believed in God. We believed in God, not that God that you mentioned earlier. And honestly, the first time through the step, I went step 2, came to believe that power greater than myself could restore me to sanity. Oh yeah, I believe that. Check. 3, turn my will and my life over to God. Check. You know, those are things that I know because I've been religious my whole life. Talk to me about your experience with that and how we can look at it from a different perspective.

Harvey E.: So yes, as you said, I, by the way, I became religious as a teenager. I was not brought up in a religious home, but from the time I was Certainly a teenager and since, I have lived an Orthodox Jewish life. I have kept the commandments, which were meant to connect me to God, interestingly enough. You know, when I, when I follow the, the doctrine, the, that God has, that we believe the world is meant to follow as, as Jewish men and women, it's meant to try to help us get closer to God.

In my case, I, I did it from rote. I prayed by rote. Everything I said was, you know. Mm-hmm. Thank you, God, for the food. You know, I, you guys know all this stuff. We do the same thing. And I, and our prayers happen to be very often in spoken in the plural. Uh, you know, blessed are you, God, you know, our king, our, and we ask for things as a community, not as a person. Intentional prayer was almost nonexistent for me.

I had never ever spoken an intentional prayer in my life. Until my second sponsee, who was an evangelical pastor named Tim, taught me how to pray. And, and I will never forget it, forget him for that because intentional prayer is really the beginning, I think, certainly one of the beginning parts of entering into a relationship with God. You know, God doesn't need to hear my prayer. He knows what's going on in my head. He knows what's going on in my heart.

He understands everything. He knows everything. Omniscient, omnipotent, you know? So why am I praying? I'm praying so I can hear me talk to him and I can get in touch with what's hurting me and what's bothering me and what I need and what I wish for and what I, and what's heavy on my, on my soul right now. You know, and that, and being humble and being vulnerable with him is how we enter into that relationship.

So yeah, so I never had any of that. I had a very angry, punishing, conditionally loving God. It, when I never, if, when I was acting out, he had long ago left the room. He was not present. Mm-hmm. He was disgusted. He would've thought me a pervert. He would've thought me a, just a, a huge Disaster, failure, disappointment. All of those words were how I understood what my Father in Heaven must be thinking of me. He certainly wasn't present in any way, shape, or form.

And that's really one of the first things that needed to change for me was really appreciating that omnipresent was a, was a real phenomenon. You know, Heavenly Father, are you really there? As I always try to remember that song, cuz it really speaks to me. We have one similar in, in our tradition, you know. Love it. God is here. God is there. God is truly everywhere. That's how we sing it. But it's so interesting how we can sing those songs and yet very quickly realize that we don't really believe it.

God is not here for me. God's here for everybody else out there, or most everybody else out there, but not for me. Because I don't deserve it. I, I, I'm a piece of garbage. I, I am just not worthy. I'm in the toilet and floating around, whatever it is. And there's just, just no way, you know, and, and yet I was still keeping kosher and I was still keeping Sabbath and I was still doing all of those things because maybe I was hedging my bets.

Narrator: I don't know.

Harvey E.: I don't know what I was doing, but I, I never gave up on that. And, and interestingly enough, Like, I was so nuts that even when I would act out and I would hire an escort for a Friday night after Sabbath started and my wife is out of town and I could have people in my house, God forbid, I can't even remind myself that I even did that. But I would leave money in an envelope because God forbid I wasn't allowed to touch money on my Sabbath.

So I would do all these crazy things with a man that I shouldn't be doing, but Sabbath was sanctified. I had to put the money in an envelope. I should, God forbid, never touch money. Like I wouldn't use my phone on Sabbath. I never acted out on Sabbath on my phone. I never looked at porn. I never did anything on Sabbath on my phone. God forbid, you know, like it was nuts, you know? So there you go.

You want more, more insanity? There's, there's a little more for you.

Justin B.: Oh man. Yeah. And, and I can identify with that very, very closely in my own experience, in my own life. Thank you for sharing that. So with that. thought of God being distant, not there when I'm acting out in my addiction, even if it's when I'm lying or whatever, if God is not there in my mind, how did that process change for you to say, you know what, God really is there and was there even in my deepest, darkest, worst moments?

How did you, one, come to accept that? And then 2, how did you come to be okay with that?

Harvey E.: So my sponsor told me, he gave me a license, gave me an invitation to create a relationship with a God of my own choosing and make him whatever I thought I really wanted. So I started from scratch. Of course, there were a few gimmes, like he had to still be omnipotent. He still had to be omniscient. I wanted him to be omnipresent. And the way I put that is, God, I wanna hire you. And I hired him actually.

We actually do an advert as if I'm gonna hire a secretary or somebody or good, you know, a girl Friday or a man Friday, whatever. You know, I'm hiring God and it sounds sacrilegious, but just bear with me. I'm hiring this new experience of God and this God is omnipresent in my life. He works 24/7. No vacations. In fact, no blinking. And as such, he never leaves the room. He never leaves my side. He's always there, even in those worst acting out moments, most humiliating behaviors you would imagine.

He never leaves my room. He never leaves my, my, my place. He's here for me. And there's a very common saying. They say that if, you know, if you feel distant from God, who moved? And that was me, of course. And now I understand that. But that was part of that, that finding that new experience. I created a relationship, a personal God relationship with a God that's here for me 24/7. No blinking, no vacation. And then I went to the next step, and it's interesting because I think in my experience, almost every sponsee that when I've ever can do this, this little work with them, if I ask them, what would you want God to be if you could make him anything you want?

What would be the first thing you'd want him to be? And they always say the first word comes outta their head is, oh, I want him to love me. But so I, then I hit them with, okay, what does love mean to you? How does God express his love for you? And the answer almost always is He listens because I, I don't have to tell you, in this world, it's hustle bustle. Both parents are often working today.

It's a very different world than, than my parents grew up with in the, you know, in Poland in the '20s. We don't have a lot of time. We don't listen to our children. You know? Yeah. We, we don't really have it. And it, it's really finding a God that's truly there and wants to listen and does listen and actually understand. He listens even when I don't speak. That's, that was a very new experience for me.

I, I was ignored. I was dismissed. I was minimized throughout my childhood. You know, go to your room. If you're crying, I'll give you a good reason to cry. You weren't allowed to have feelings. You weren't allowed to express your emotions. You weren't given permission to emote. You weren't, you certainly weren't, your emotions weren't given any, any, any reality, any, any understanding. Nobody cared. Yeah. Go to your room. Go to your room. So I went to my room and I fantasized and I went into fairyland, whatever, and became Superman and flew off to the Fortress of Solitude in my case.

Yeah.

Justin B.: So, and I wanna come back to this, this concept of creating a new experience with God, envisioning and building up this, this new experience with God. You mentioned that previously the God of your understanding was angry and punishing and, and all of these different things. And you know, in my faith, and I think similar in your faith experience, Harvey, is I can go to scripture and point, hey, God was angry. God smote them. God brought down fire and brimstone from heaven to, to, to, to destroy this people or whatever.

How do you currently reconcile Those words that are written and your experience and understanding of God right now?

Harvey E.: Well, I think that one of the other pieces of insanity, one of the things that we are often very insane about is our need to be analytical and to explain and to figure out things and understand things. And what you're saying right now is part of that Peace. I, for me it was, I did exactly what you did. I went back to scripture and I said, wait a minute, what I just created, this loving, I mean, I created a God that was the president of my fan club who cheered me on when I did well, who gave me good advice when I wasn't doing so great, was there for me to challenge me to, to be the best athlete that I could be, to to grow in every day, every opportunity to grow, to become the potential Harvey that God put into me.

You know, he only wants that. That's, that's what he's, he's excited to help me become the best Harvey that I, that's potentially in me that was there since I was brought into the world. And so yeah, it, it, there's a lot of scripture out there that kind of doesn't really work. First of all, some of it's, a lot of it, as you even already suggested, was, is, is in the plural because he's talking about Punishing nations, punishing lots of people.

So that doesn't get me so much trouble because, okay, so there's a public image that God needs to have, you know, in the nations and stuff like that. And smoting Egypt and, you know, we just went through Passover and stuff. The personal stuff, when God punishes a human, a person, I, I don't like the word punish. I like the word consequence. And so for me as a parent, I now appreciate that when my kids did something that wasn't particularly smart or intelligent or perhaps kind, there might be consequences.

You know, you hit your sister, you might get sent to your room. Is that a punishment? No, it's a consequence. You know, you can't expect to be given opportunities to socialize in our home if you're being antisocial or being, doing antisocial behaviors. That's gonna be a consequence. So I, I think, I think it could be a poetic license. In a lot of cases, the words are, are, are given that way. I don't even know if the, the original Hebrew in our case, or whatever language, if that would've been the word and necessarily what that means.

I, I, I think that in the final analysis, that God isn't the God that I need right now. It's not the God that works for me in my program. And that's enough for me. That guy, he could be there. And I believe there are 70 faces of God. There are lots of different ways to understand him. And I can believe in that. And I can, and I've actually come to understand that that's okay now after 10 years of working in the program.

But at the beginning, I really had to say, you know what? Yeah, that could be God, but this is my God. This is my personal God. This is the God. Yeah. That I want to interact with, that I want to, to, to feel close to, that I want to sit on his lap and feel consoled by when I want him to be kissing my boo-boo if I'm hurt. And I, I don't need to think about that angry God that's smiting Pharaoh and his people or anything like that.

That's all okay, but nah, that's, this is the one I need to talk to right now. Yeah.

Justin B.: That's beautiful. Thank you for walking through that, Harvey. I love that. You know, you alluded to earlier the writing the want ad and in essay material in the Step Into Action book, which is, we also use in SAL, there's a practice called a Step 2 inventory. Do you mind talking a little bit and discussing that process a little bit with us and your experience with that process?

Harvey E.: Yeah, so I, I, I did look at that process when I was going through my Step 2. It was not what my sponsor used, as I told you. He uses the AD, the Advert, more. But I looked at it and it's interesting because, let me, let me quickly tell you, when we're talking about the second step inventory, what we're doing is looking at the mentors, the people in our lives. who have been in leadership positions, kind of our God models, and how did they behave and how did they react to things I might have done?

And were they angry? Were they short-tempered? Were they impatient? Were they whatever? And what would I want him to have been or her to have been, or my teacher or whatever, the coach of my teams, whatever they might have been, all of those people. And we write them down and we show how They rec— they actually are models and they actually acted on how I perceived God was how I perceived my parents. And they were the models of my relationship to God.

And, and that, by the way, speaks to how important it is for us to be unconditionally loving parents so that we hopefully can model that for our, our children growing up with God. Yeah. But that's another story. We can talk about that on another podcast. But there's certainly something, you know, that, so that's the reason I don't like that is I have enough trouble with my resentments and my relationships to my parents and to the people in my life, my lives, and focusing on all the things that they, quote, didn't do right, if I can say that.

I don't really want to go there, you know, so that's why I think program, my, my process works and, and why I don't use that one. But it's not so bad. It, I mean, it, it still gets you to the, I hope, to the same place. It, it still tells you what you would want to have as a relationship to God. I just think it focuses on what you, so much of what you didn't have versus let's just, let's just build what you do want.

Justin B.: No, that's, that's interesting and very powerful. Thanks for sharing that, Harvey. I, I, yeah, that's not where I expected that to go, but I think it was exactly where it needed to go. And that's good. I worked that step 2 inventory and for me it was a really powerful experience. And, and I can see how your take on, I've already got enough resentments and hard things with those things that I address in my step 4, step 5, and then get moved through it in those processes, 6, 7, 8, and 9.

But yeah, really insightful. Any other thoughts on that?

Harvey E.: Yeah. In my experience, I have encountered, perhaps because I have a lot of history, I see a lot of people who are also same-sex attracted, and maybe that's something that's common, but there are a lot of people in my recovery world that have so much trauma around their parents. and around mentors and people in, whether they were sexually abused perhaps by an uncle or by a teacher or by a priest or a bishop or whatever might've happened.

When they start to do this, they sh— they block, they break down. They, they can't even talk about their fathers. They can't even relate to their mothers. It's something that, that at this point they're not ready to even encounter, even deal with. And I'm not a purist, I have to admit. I started in SA because my new therapist sent me there, and I worked together with my therapist who himself was a 12-stepper and same-sex attracted. And he was really, really good at unblocking me ahead of the step that I was about to go to.

And this is one of those places. Yeah. You know, I don't know if I could have done the step 2 inventory that you described, that I've described, that we described from Step Into Action at the time. If I'd started right away, I don't know if I could have gotten there. There was so much baggage, so much trauma, so much PTSD around it. You say the word mother and I would go, ah, I couldn't even go there. You know, she emasculated me.

She didn't— this like— Yeah. I wouldn't even want it to even start. So I didn't have to do that because we didn't go that way. But so I think that the sponsor, I think we all have to be sensitive to recognizing where the blocks are. Where does my guy freeze? Where does my guy unwilling to go? What doesn't he wanna talk about? What doesn't he wanna hear? And be able to say, you know what, maybe you wanna do a little bit of therapy around there.

You could do maybe some EMDR or work on some trauma here. And like I said, I'm not a purist, so I, I, I believe that there's often place for that kind of work so that we can unblock ourselves and be ready to do the resentment inventories in step 4 and move on and get there.

Justin B.: Oh, that's really powerful. And I appreciate you talking about therapy in this process. In the SAL model, qualified therapy is one of the pieces of that puzzle. Talk to us a little bit about the importance of qualified therapy in your own recovery and in your own life, Harvey.

Harvey E.: Yeah. So as I was just saying, I was brought up by 2 parents who were crushed by the Second World War, by the Holocaust, by the Nazi experience. My mother was in Auschwitz. She survived Auschwitz. She survived because she was a survivor. And surviving for her actually ended up making her a narcissist in a lot of ways. And she's passed 6, 7 months ago now, and I, I try to speak about her in mostly in, in good terms because that's how I wanna remember her.

And, and the last few years of my life I was in that place. But there's no question that I grew up with a mother who emasculated her husband, uh, to the point that my father actually took his life when I was 12. I don't think he saw another way out. He just had to escape, and the only way he could was to take his own life. And we found him hanging from a rope, and that's not a pretty memory.

And at the age of 12 in 1967, therapy wasn't even offered, which is really hard to believe. I know when I say that, people go, what? Mm-hmm. You know, like, wow. So we got nothing. I had nightmares for years and I had just, I, I just couldn't move on. And there, so all of those things growing up in a home where we, we, we checked the doors and windows 3 times every night before we went to bed, and we had a Suitcases in the front door.

Each of us had our own suitcase with up-to-date clothing in it so that if God forbid they came, we would be able to run away and leave. And each of us had a book in the bookshelf with our, you know, that we knew was ours and it was hollowed out and there was money in that book, you know, so we could get on a plane or we could get on a bus or drive, you know, get away.

So my mother had planned survival as the number one and most important thing in our lives. So yeah, there was a lot of trauma, a lot of trauma, you know, financial concerns and, and just political fears were, were huge. Yeah. Huge in our home. And my parents did not know anything about interacting with each other. They had no parents of their own because their parents had died in the war. People don't talk about this, but one of the, you know, 6 million people died, yes, in the war, they say.

And we, and I certainly believe that. So 6 million Jews, but with those people also died a tradition, also died all the learned and, and experiences of, of parenting, of being humans that my parents did not benefit from when they became parents. They couldn't turn to their fathers, their mothers and say, mommy, you know, my kid just stole a chocolate bar from the, from the store. What do I do? What did you do? They had no experience to back them, to fall back on.

They were lost children themselves and obviously depressed and sad and having lost everybody in their lives and everything. So I needed to do a lot of therapy just to break out of that. And I did a lot of EMDR for several years and I got to a place where thankfully with this program, Uh, I could get to, I could pray before I went in to visit my parents and appreciate that God is coming with me into this room and my mother's never gonna change.

And my, my father's obviously gone, but my mother's never gonna change. And, but I don't need to, I don't need to allow her to become my higher power. I don't need her to, to be that important person that can affect me, that, that, that can define me. I don't, I'm no longer defined by, I'm not defined by my wife. I'm not defined. I wasn't defined by my mother. In the last years, I'm still subject to PTSD.

When my wife scolds me, I hear my mother. You know, it's still an old place. I don't enjoy it. Right. But at least I know, I know it's happening now and I know what to do about it. I come into my room, I get on my knees, I talk to God. I say, God, my wife is a mother. That's who she is. She doesn't mean it. She, she loves me and she cares and she doesn't know any other way.

And I hear it.

Justin B.: Well, thank you for sharing that and going through that process and the things that you need to unpack. And what a, what a powerful way to share that. As we start to wrap up this conversation here, let's go back to the root and the foundation of step 2. Is there anything else that you feel is vital and important for us to touch on here before we wrap things up?

Harvey E.: Well, so I, as I was saying, and I really think this is the core of step 2. Is what we need to understand from what we read when we say that God could restore me to sanity, that he could, he would, and he wants to restore me to sanity. That's really speaking to what I think is at the root of step 2, and we've kind of touched on it a few times. I need to use step 2 to learn to love myself the way God loves me.

Yeah. So that I can enter into understanding the relationships that I have so far in my life, not really taken seriously, not ever been able to really be that man that I really wanna be. And, and once I have God and loving myself, now I can learn to love others. And most importantly, finding that unconditionally loving God, like I said, that's listening. That's hugging me, that's holding me when I need to be held, that's consoling me, that's giving me encouragement, that's helping me see where I might have gone off.

All of those things. That's a God that in the final analysis offers me the 2 most important word, 3 most important words that I think are really paramount in this whole program. And those 3 words are love. The second word is hope, and the third word is trust. And knowing that I have a God like that offers me hope. I have hope that this is going to be something that I can carry to my grave the rest of my life.

He's offering me hope. And going back to that dating coach kind of thing that I mentioned very early on. You know, when you date somebody and you decide you want to get married, you do believe that there's love between you and this person, that you really, you love each other. There's love. And, and you also believe in trust. You really believe that together you're going to have a trusting, respectful marriage where I can trust my spouse.

I, and he, she can trust me, right? When you, when you go to be sealed or when you go under the chuppah, you know, under the canopy to get married. The one thing that you don't yet have and that you want to have under that footpath or in that ceiling is to find the hope for the future, that, that love and that trust is something that I can kind of count on moving forward. And that's what step 2 is really about.

I think if I don't come away feeling the trust, the love, and the, and the hope, then there's no way I can get to step 3. 'Cause step 3 is surrendering and I can't surrender to a God I don't trust.

Justin B.: Yeah, man. So I think I want to go back to my initial experience with step 2 and step 3 of it just being a check. Yeah, I've got God in my life. I believe this. Let's go back to the word that, came to believe that, and this love, hope, and trust is super powerful. If, if the God that I pray to, that I worship, that I look to for comfort, that I do these things doesn't have those characteristics of love, hope, trust, all-powerful, all-present, the things that I need.

It sounds like I probably need to do a want ad or look at things a little bit differently. Harvey, do you have anything else to talk about on that?

Harvey E.: So I think that For me, at least, the Big Book speaks about having a spiritual, you know, awakening, a spiritual experience. And I think this is the spiritual experience for sure. For me, this is where it started. And in Step 3, when we talk about at the end of, you know, on page 63, just before the prayer, it talks about the fear of today, tomorrow, and the hereafter will be gone. And we are reborn. So when did we die?

If we're being reborn, it was somewhere we had to die. Again, like the insanity word. If I'm sane, I must have been insane. You know, if I'm reborn, I must have died, right? So what is that dying? That dying is the ego that has to die, the analytical man that has to die. The, the person needs to know has to die. I, I have to be able to get rid of all of that stuff and enter into a loving relationship where I could just let go, let him drive the bus, as we say, you know, and sit in the backseat.

I can just be another bozo in the bus, as we say. And obviously one of our difficulties is gonna be wanting to lean in over the seat and check the GPS, 'cause you know what? I'm not perfect at this. I'm still in spiritual kindergarten and I'm 10 years in, but I think we all suffer from moments where trust sometimes gets a little bit hurt. You know, it gets scary a little bit. You know, do I really trust him?

I don't know where the hell I'm going. I don't know where he's taking me. Can I really trust him? You know, please God, just tell me where you're going. It would be so much easier. Yeah. But it doesn't always happen that way.

Justin B.: And I love how you brought that back to the person, myself, who needs to analyze, who wants to understand, who wants to know everything. Now, what is my path going to look like? That takes the mystery of God out of it. And I think in both of our faith traditions, there's the mysteries of God that, that make God who God is. And I need to be okay with that and just be like, you know what? What your path is, is greater than my path.

Your ways are higher than my ways.

Harvey E.: Right. And we see that in the Catholic faith and we see that in the Jewish faith. We see that in almost every faith. I think that what you just said was, is so true. The mystery of God is very much part of where we are supposed to live and it's supposed to be that way. You know, we wouldn't want to have a God that we understand. That would, that almost seems like, well, what, what How would that even feel?

You know, that would be weird. And yet that mystery when we were kids and growing up and certainly in our addiction world, it, it was really in the way because we need to know, we need to understand. And we're on this, we're really in this on our own cuz we can't turn to anybody. That's another one of those kid insanity places. Again, I, I have to do this alone. I was meant to do this alone. I have to do this.

Yeah. And now I don't have to do this alone, and I have friends and I have mentors and I have people in my life who have done it and who are doing it and who can help me just be calm and, and go with the flow and just say, Harvey, it's going to be okay.

Justin B.: Beautiful. Thank you so much for your time, Harvey. This has been a wonderful conversation, one that's lifted me, and I'm sure that many people will listen to this and be lifted by it. Grateful that the God of your understanding, the God of my understanding, is now one who loves me and supports me and is with me and doesn't blink. Love that imagery. Does not blink. All right, so let's wrap this up here. Do you have any final words that you'd like to share before we wrap up?

Harvey E.: Yeah, I, I think that what we've just been talking about is ultimately the miracle of the steps. And I would just invite everyone not to leave before they see the miracle, until the miracle happens for them.

Justin B.: Thank you so much, Harvey. And I think that goes right into one of the phrases that we use at the end of SAL meetings. Keep coming back. It works when I work it, so work it. You are worth it.

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