Step 5 – Rigorous Honesty w/ Carolyn E

Narrator: This is Pathway to Recovery, an SA Lifeline Foundation podcast featuring hosts Tara McCausland, who is the SA Lifeline Executive Director, and Justin B., a sex addict living in long-term recovery. We have conversations with experts and individuals who understand the pathway to healing from sexual addiction and betrayal trauma because we believe that recovering individuals leads to the healing of families. Welcome to the Pathway to Recovery Podcast.

Justin B.: I'm Justin B. I am a recovering sex addict, and I'm so grateful to be a co-host in this project as Tara McCausland of the SA Lifeline Foundation and I continue to walk this path of trying to share experience, strength, and hope And show that it is possible to have recovering individuals and healing families as we walk the steps of recovery in SAL 12-step. Really quick before we get started, I'm excited to sit down and talk with Carolyn Eade about Step 5 here in a few minutes, but I need to mention a couple of things.

First, we're super grateful to our sponsor of these episodes and of our upcoming SAL conference. Circles of Grace. They are a community of therapists and counselors who really specialize in trauma-informed therapy for the sexual addict, for the, for the betrayed partners. If you have any questions or anything, you can definitely go visit circlesofgrace.help is their website and check them out. Reach out if you would like to, to see if you can schedule an appointment with them.

We're really grateful for their support. Also upcoming here in just a couple of weeks, by the time this episode posts, it'll be 2 weeks until the SAL conference this year. It's running from September 26th through September 28th. It will all be virtual on Zoom, but you will need to register for that. And you can do that by going to salifeline.org and just look up events and you can register through that website. We're really excited this year to have 3 separate days.

One will be focused on addiction, one will be focused on betrayal trauma, and one will be focused on healing families and talking about all sorts of different things with different speakers, different presenters, different panels. And just grateful to have that upcoming and excited about that. All right. Now I'm even more excited to sit down with Carolyn E. and talk a little bit about Step 5 today. So what I'd like to do now is just turn the floor over to Carolyn to introduce herself.

And, and then we'll get into this conversation. Carolyn, floor is yours.

Carolyn E.: Oh, thanks for having me. It's so good to be here. Such a joy. So yes, my name is Carolyn. I live in Southern Utah, and I have been working the 12-step recovery program through SA Lifeline for just about 2 years now, actually just over 2 years. It has been such a blessing in my life as I lived with sexual addiction, knowing that it was active and not realizing that I had any means of help for myself for nearly 15 years in my marriage.

And so being in this space has been such an incredible blessing and has moved me forward in my life in ways that I didn't think was possible.

Justin B.: Thank you for sharing that. And I have a quick question on that introduction. What If you don't mind me asking, what was it that finally broke the camel's back that was like, okay, I need to get into 12-step recovery myself in this process of dealing with sexual addiction in my life?

Carolyn E.: It's interesting because for me, I really did have that mindset like, this is his problem. So as soon as he deals with it, my life will be fine. And so my first approach to 12-step 12-step, it was through a church congregation 12-step. And I viewed it as a, this is just to help me feel better, to have a space where I can talk about things. But I still didn't recognize that I had work to do. And it wasn't until my family moved from Tennessee to Utah and I discovered that my husband was Acting out again and had been lying about it for a really substantial amount of time.

And then I couldn't find a similar church program where we lived. And as it turns out, is inaccurate. There are places here, but I couldn't find them. So then my husband, through his connections, through his 12-step work, found a, a sale for me. Which is a hard truth to acknowledge that he was the one who found it. But, but I went in that same mindset of, okay, I'm going to go. This is a place to vent all of my feelings and just to help me feel better while my husband fixes the problem.

And what I found was something completely different. It was a space of women who were actively working a program that was bettering their own lives, that they were recovering themselves. Regardless of what the addict was choosing to do. And it was in that first meeting that I recognized that my mindset needed to shift significantly, and that this was going to be different, that this was going to not be me hanging out feeling better, but it was me changing regardless of what My spouse chose to do.

Justin B.: I think that's super powerful. And we'll dive into that a little bit more as we have this conversation. I think talking about the changes that you felt you needed to make, not because you were being shamed or being that you weren't a good person, but that things needed to change on your end. We'll talk about that here as we go along. But I'd like to jump in a little bit into what we're doing with this series right now, going through each of the 12 steps of recovery and how I've been doing this is every other step, I talk with an addict, and I talk with a betrayed, I talk with an addict, and I move on down the list.

And your name was shared with me about Step 4, the possibility of talking with you about Step 4. But the pattern that I already set up made it so Step 4 was the addict. So I thought maybe we can make this work with Step 5 and put in your Step 4 experience with the Step 5 experience and talk about that. But what I'd like to do before we jump into that is I'm going to read through steps 1 through 5 so that the listener who may be jumping in and has not listened to the previous ones know what they are.

And I'll just go ahead and read those. And this is for the addict. This is for the betrayed. This is for all groups that fall under the SAL 12-step umbrella. And here are those steps. Step 1, we admitted we are powerless over sexual addiction. That our lives had become unmanageable. 2, came to believe that a power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity. 3, made a decision to turn our will and lives over to the care of God as we understood him.

Step 4, made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves. And step 5, admitted to God, to ourselves, and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs. And obviously there's more steps through in a 12-step program. But this is where we're going to be focusing today is on step 5 and the process that leads up to step 5. So Carolyn, before we jump into that, so let's talk about steps 1, 2, 3 really quickly, how you moved through those, and then we'll spend a little bit more time on step 4.

Carolyn E.: Sure. Okay. So when I first started, really had no idea what I was doing, but I opened the book and I read through it and I started answering the questions. And trying to be as honest as I could, discovering things. There's that process of when you take something out of yourself and put it into words or onto paper, that there's like this acknowledgement of truth that you've never could acknowledge before. And I recognized that in my step 1 and in my step 2, really wrestling with God, especially into step 3, recognizing that there was not just my present self that had to turn.

Yeah. My will over to God, but a lot of past selves that had become me that weren't really willing to do that. And, and so I took a long time to try to open myself to God and be willing to turn my will and life over to him. I had to kind of rewind a little bit. When my husband and I separated, I was working step 2. And when I asked him to move out and he did, I realized that I needed to rework step 1 again because suddenly surrendering him and his addiction meant a completely different thing than it had a few months ago.

And so I went back and I reworked it and then moved through step 3 and really feeling like I was just full space into this process. For me, shame has been a major Part of my story and my journey in a way that I haven't heard other women talk about shame. And I know it's a big part of this world of addiction and betrayal trauma. But for me, I feel like when I would try to share my experience of this is how shame shows up, people would be like, I've never experienced that before.

And it was a space where I felt like feeling emotion in almost any capacity threw me into a shame spiral. So feeling proud of myself, and I would be thrown into a shame spiral. Feeling angry at my spouse would throw me into a shame spiral. And I was constantly like living in that cycle. So the thought of coming into a Step 4 was terrifying because you're meant to acknowledge all parts of yourself. And I felt like I had no capacity to do that.

So I really felt like steps 1 through 3 were so vital, as well as working other parts of the program, like working with my sponsor and surrendering. And, and let me talk about having good therapeutic work, like having a therapist that was able to work with me with my shame really put me in a place where I could go into step 4 with that full faith in that higher power. And then that experience was incredible.

Justin B.: Let's pause there for just a second because I want to dive just a little bit into that shame in regards to the understanding of your higher power that you previously had and how changes in step 2, 3 made it so that, and I'm just assuming here because I put myself in your shoes there with that, that perhaps it was your understanding or misunderstanding of your higher power previous to that put you into those shame spirals at that time.

So what kinds of changes happened in your perception? of your higher power, say, previous to doing these Step 2, Step 3, 4, 5, and what it looks like today?

Carolyn E.: I think I was always wanting God to show up in my life, and I couldn't understand why he wasn't there. I always felt like, I'm willing, like, just tell me what to do. I never felt like I was given direction. I never felt like I had these strong desires. Like, I never felt like I knew what do. And in those months and years when our life was so unmanageable and so chaotic, I oftentimes remember just being in just, just tell me what to do, tell me what to do.

And it was so frustrating feeling like I almost never felt like I had direction, like I was just getting through. And I think part of that was getting to a place of my own humility. My sponsor, said in a quip, like, it took you a long time to hit rock bottom. And I really feel like it did, where I felt like I had to prove that I could do it. And I don't know what I was trying to prove, but it was like, okay, like, it's my job to make sure my life is good.

And then whenever God decides to tell me to do something different, I will. And that was a really closed-off heart that I've come to recognize. Yeah. A big change came and a blessing I received, which that's a— it was a religious experience, but it was this message of, you, Carolyn, need to figure out what you want from your own life. And which I was surprised by. And so I took that to God and really tried to have him at my center and say, what do I want from my life?

What do I have control over? And when I was able to see that vision and feel like he was there with me in it, then I could look at my life differently and make choices differently and feel about myself differently and see him show up in a way that I never had before.

Justin B.: Beautiful, beautiful. You said something that your sponsor said, hey, it just took you a little while to hit your rock bottom. Yeah. So often when I'm speaking with or listening to or hearing about the betrayed partners' rock bottom, it, not always, but oftentimes is, it's when my husband did this, when my husband did that, that rock bottom happened. It sounds like with you, your rock bottom was more your rock bottom. What did that look like in your case?

Carolyn E.: Yeah, I think it was like a threefold process over a couple of years. One, I remember just sitting in my room with my kids and they were just like playing, climbing all over me, and I was not there. Like my mind was a million miles away. And I'd been in a fight with my spouse and he came in, was this, and like this attempt to be like, okay, we're fine. We're fine. We're fine. And I just looked at him and I was like, I am not fine.

Yeah. And that was the first time I acknowledged that I wasn't okay, maybe ever in our married life. But for me, I still was like, this has nothing to do with his addiction, even though it all had to do with the addiction. And that was when I first sought out therapy for myself. And it was not in relationship to betrayal trauma. I'd never even heard of that before. I think the second step in that was recognizing that my husband had been acting out for a year and a half.

while he was going to 12-step, while he was doing all of these recovery things, and recognizing that, that kind of hit in the face of, oh yeah, things are really sucky again. Like, I'd had this glimpse of light when I started working a little bit and he started working a little bit. Mm-hmm. But that complacency of, okay, we're fine now, really smacked me in the face. And I recognized that Oh yeah, things are so bad. And, and I can tolerate bad so well.

And then the third one was when I asked my husband to move out. He had confessed that he'd been acting out. And what I knew in myself was that he could have kept lying to me for months or years and I wouldn't have questioned him. I wouldn't have brought it up. I wouldn't have set boundaries. I would've continued in his storyline. Yeah. Pretending away my own feelings about it. And I feel like that really set me up to say, okay, I can only be focused.

Like, I have to be in myself with God at my center. Because whenever I try to lean on him, or— it really showed me like how much work I needed to do and where I was in that process. So those 3 experiences that kind of landed me in that space of Like, I don't ever want to be here again.

Justin B.: Thank you for sharing that and being so vulnerable in that process, Carolyn. I really appreciate it. Let's, let's jump back into step 4. You said, hey, I really had fear jumping in here because, well, whenever you got angry or proud or whatever it was, you spent, went into a shame spiral. And step 4 is all about examining all of those things. The hard, the good, all of those things and examining the motives behind that. So talk to me a little bit about your experience with Step 4 and how that went through and how you were, I'm assuming, eventually able to get through Step 4 without going into a shame death spiral.

Carolyn E.: Yeah. Sponsorship was so important to me. I actually asked a new person to be my sponsor to sponsor me through Step 4 specifically. And, and I used a program different from the S&O program. I found a different workbook that highlighted positive attributes. That was the first thing you did was look at your positive attributes. And I felt cool. We can start on a high note. That'll be a good space for me.

Justin B.: And can you share what that workbook is so that we can put it in the show notes for anybody who may be interested in that?

Carolyn E.: Sure. It's Healing Through Christ. And it's a perspective through the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, not published by the church, but doctrinally in line with that church. I haven't used it for any of the other steps, just step 4.

Justin B.: Okay. Very well. Thank you.

Carolyn E.: I'd asked my first sponsor, 'cause to me, I felt like I had one, like I could list one attribute where I could be like, I feel like this is true and not feel like I was shaming myself for believing, which doesn't— not a lot. So I was like, okay, sponsor, you've worked with me for months now. What have you seen? And she was so cute. She like Googles character trait attributes like online and just found a list of attributes and just starts reading them off to me.

Yep, I've seen that. Yep, I've seen that. Yep, I've seen that. And I'm on the phone with her hearing these things that she's saying about me and just being able to like really feel like, oh yeah, that's true. Oh yeah, that's true. Which I attribute to God. I couldn't have done that without him being at my center. And so then I could take those things and work through the questions of how I've seen them and how they've— I, they could bless other people.

So having that foundation allowed me to then get into the work of my life experience. I did a biographical sketch of my negative emotions, of my character weaknesses, and, and then again, speaking to sponsorship, I had a call every week with my sponsor through step 4. And then again, she would say things like, I love how you're working this step. Or you're working this step so intuitively, and and that really just helps my heart just say, okay, yeah.

Because I feel like I wanted her to correct me at first. No, you should do it like this, or no, you should do it like this. But there was never like a change. It was like just do it however you're going to do it. And as I started working through it, I felt like God really did bless me with. memories and understanding and a frame of mind where I could accept it. Because I would naturally go into a space of, okay, I discovered this thing, and so now I need to— how do I fix it?

How do I fix it? And again, my sponsor would say, step 4 is a list. You're not fixing it. You're not doing anything with it. All you're doing is writing it down. And so then surrendering that whole other process of wanting to fix it and just letting it be the list. And so when I was coming to the end of that experience, I'd spent so much time with God in it, just praying through it. Please direct me.

Please give me discernment. And I feel like you could easily say it was just you and it was your mind. And it was like, because you were holding yourself accountable, it was because you were working it every single day. And it was Because you weren't procrastinating. And I think all those things were a gift from God. 100%. And so when I came to the end and I had that list of negative and list of positive, and my list of negative is longer than my positive, and I could see it, and I just had no ability to judge it in any way, which I think was like the first time in my life that I had that capacity, and I could see myself.

And just say, look, there's me. I often hear it from betrayed women, and I've certainly experienced this, that you lose yourself. And I would so often in therapy, I don't know, I don't know. I lost the ability, I feel like, to like order off a menu. Like, I just felt like I had no idea who I was. And so taking this part of this step 4 and looking at it, it was the first time in maybe my adult life.

Hmm. That I could say, oh, I know who I am. And God gave this to me. And it was so beautiful. Like it was such a beautiful, joyful experience to know myself.

Justin B.: That's really cool. I, Carolyn, I really appreciate how you're going through this and walking through this. Before we jump over to step 5, which is where we're going to focus the rest of this conversation on. Is there any— are you working with other women right now sponsoring them through the steps? And do you plan on doing something similar to what you did with this sponsee when she gets there? Is that your plan? Or are you just— how's that looking?

Carolyn E.: I think what I learned is that every woman needs something different. And you can't tell them what to do, because then it won't be their own process. And Healing comes when it comes from within us, which I believe is God coming out in us. And I love my process, and I think like the pride part of me is, yes, everyone should do it like this. It was amazing. But ultimately, if there's any parts of my process that are beneficial to people, they need to come to that realization.

Yeah. for themselves. And right, that like, we share our experience, we don't share our advice. And that's— this is my experience.

Justin B.: Thank you for sharing that. I know some people may say, Justin, you have an addiction to recovery work. And others will say, like what I want to say, I'm curious, I want to see a lot of different ways of doing it. I've worked the steps, I don't know, in 6 or 8 different ways, all the steps all the way through and a whole bunch of different ways to try and see, try and learn from a different perspective and to have those resources so that when I'm sponsoring somebody through the steps, I go, oh, you know what?

I think this way may work. Let's give it a shot. And, and that's been really helpful to me. So what you're sharing here is one more example of those ways. And you said, hey, there's lots of ways to do it. And I agree. I agree. Okay. Let's jump to step 5, and I'm going to reread what step 5 is here real quick. Admitted to God, To ourselves and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs. What did that Step 5 process look like to you after you'd gone through this thorough searching and fearless moral inventory of yourself?

Carolyn E.: Yeah, I approached Step 5 thinking, like, mentally ready for this battle of, okay, I'm gonna go through this process. And what I came to understand was I felt like I had been gifted something so beautiful from Step 4, that I was just ready to do Step 5. I, we use the Essendon 12-step book or the SAL 12-step groups. And so I read through it, I answered the questions, and I really felt like there was nothing holding me back from working this step.

I, let me rewind a little bit. My first SAL meeting was Step 5 study, which is like a really weird note to remember. Yeah. I stopped It really impressed me so much, partially because it's acknowledged that step 5 is a difficult step. So I came in and everyone's talking about this hard step, and I think a lot of people may be turned off from that. Wait a minute, I don't have to do this. Like, I came here to talk about how horrible my husband is and why we can't do that.

And But what I saw in that meeting was women sharing their experience of working Step 5 and how good it was, acknowledging the hard, but it was good, and then other women needing that experience. And I think partially because it was my first meeting, there was something about finishing Step 5 that felt like I was coming full circle in my recovery work. Like, I wanted to finish step 5. That felt like— I hate using the word completed. We never complete this work.

But that I was honoring my own recovery work by going through this whole process. So I'd finished step 4. I quickly read through step 5 and answered some questions in the SNR book. And then I just decided I did go for it. I found a day when I had time and space, um, from my family a little bit, and I took my Step 4 inventory and I looked in the mirror and I just read it to myself. So that's how I acknowledged it to myself.

And obviously I'd been working through this for months and I had memorized the list. Look, I knew what was on there. But again, saying something out loud and acknowledging it creates a truth and an honesty in myself that I knew was important. And then I took that same list to God, which I think you could easily say God knows. He was there with me. Like, I believe in an omnipotent God. But I took that list and went in prayer and just said, okay, this is what I've discovered about myself.

And that was really beautiful because in all of it, I could feel That love of a perfect God. And so then I took it. I had set up a meeting with my sponsor, and we met at a park, and I took my list and said, "Okay." And there was like four main defects that I had found with a bunch of little things stemming off of them. I said, "Okay, in this defect, here's all of the things that I've found, and in this defect, here's all the things that I found." And And we've— like, me and my sponsor have a good relationship, and I wasn't afraid going into it talking to her about those things.

And yet at the same time, there is— again and again I'm reminded how beautiful it is to come out of isolation, to be fully myself in the good and the bad, and someone to accept that. Not to say that it's okay that I have these defects, But to say, yep, like welcome to the human family, and here we are, and be able to share her experience with her own things and how she continues to live in recovery while trying to surrender those defects.

And similar after finishing step four, it was like a beautiful ending. Okay, here I am, and. Now I feel like I've been fully honest and now I'm at like another platform to dive into the next part of my recovery.

Justin B.: Beautiful. Now you mentioned, and I love how you said this, I sat down with my sponsor and shared all of the stuff and my sponsor said, welcome to the human race. You're just like me. I'm just like you. Earlier in this, you talked about how Um, your story is a little bit different and it is how shame had really affected you in a way that most other people you've talked to doesn't seem to have that same effect.

As you went through this Step 5, are you able to see similarities in that? Is that still something that others you from the group, or is that something that, that as you've shared these, this experience with your sponsor that you feel like, okay, I'm part of? They're part of. And does that make sense at all?

Carolyn E.: I think so. I really do feel like I have been blessed to have that part of myself healed in part. I think it's something that still flares up. Part of that is really working with a wonderful therapist who's helped. I think it is a trauma, like a part of the trauma in me, and healing that trauma, which we really recognize in SAL as necessary in our healing is healing that trauma, which happens often in a therapeutic setting.

But then also having women in 12-step— part of one of the tools that a therapist gave me was, okay, when you start a shame spiral, this is what you do. Oh, and it is not easy.

Justin B.: It's— you mind sharing what that process is?

Carolyn E.: So basically, you acknowledge what triggered it. You acknowledge the feelings that are underneath that shame. Oh, I was feeling embarrassed, or I was feeling angry, or I was feeling whatever it was. And then, okay, so next time this happens, what can I do? Like, how can I teach my mind something different? And then you call someone and you walk through the whole process with them. And I have on Many occasions been on the phone, like, in tears because it is affecting me so badly, this state of shame.

And then talking through these things— this is what triggered it, these are the feelings I'm having under the shame, this is what I'm trying to teach my brain to do instead. And then on the other side, someone saying, I'm so honored to hear your story. And I didn't believe it at first. It was like, okay, that's a nice thing to say, but I didn't believe it. But I kept doing it because I was so committed to healing myself again.

Like, I hit that rock bottom and I never wanted to be there again. And part of never being there again was healing the toxic shame that was hurting me so badly. And then to get to a place where I could recognize that I could be on a phone call and they would say, thank you so much for reaching out to me. I'm so privileged to hear this. And say, yeah, because I'd experienced that too. I had experienced the other side of it where I felt so privileged to hear people's stories that I could see that was true.

And, and so now when I feel like those defects come up in a more like emotional way, when you're like in it. Yeah. I could say, oh yeah, there it is, it's coming up. And I do remember those times where I can say I'm okay because I know I'm accepted by these other women. And sometimes I still reach out, sometimes I don't feel like that's necessary, but I really do feel like I can be a witness that like we can change, like our brain patterns can change, that through God and giving ourselves to him, he allows us those connections that show us light in a way that we've Man, that, that process is so cool.

Justin B.: And I think it ties directly into a couple of steps. One, step 5 that we're talking about here. I admit to another person that I'm struggling. It's also a step 10 concept of daily accountability, reviewing our day as we go throughout our day. A little bit of inside baseball before you and I started recording, you asked me a really powerful question. How do you maintain rigorous honesty as a face of this, whatever pathway to recovery of SAL, whatever that may look like?

How do you maintain rigorous honesty? And something that you mentioned in this share just now is one of those ways. When I am in a spiral, a shame spiral, a trigger spiral, a, I'm resentful, I'm irritable, I'm discontent, I'm restless, whatever. Yeah. I have to pick up the phone. I have to say, hey, I'm struggling. I'm irritable right now. Let's dive into why I'm irritable. What is the root of this? And what you shared there is such a powerful concept.

And it's in step 5. I admit to myself, I'm irritable. I admit to God, I am irritable right now. I need your help. And I admit to another human being, I'm irritable. Let's talk through this. How is that process? Is there anything else you want to share on that process that has helped you in your own recovery?

Carolyn E.: One thing that came to mind, we read in the Al-Anon book, we are only as sick as our secrets. And I really feel like that gets to the heart of Step 5, that whether it's working through the steps officially or as things come up and we are trying to process through them, when we hold onto those secrets, like, that creates sickness inside of us. Yeah. I would love to not be sick at all and to get all the secrets out.

But as life happens, like, they continue to build up. We continue to have those experiences that maybe we're not proud of, that we're ashamed of. And past patterns for me is you can't tell anyone about it. You can't tell anyone about it. You can't tell anyone about it. But when I remember that idea of I heal. I get better when I don't have those secrets. Like I want to share it, and I want to get it out of me.

And I think the miracle of the twelve steps is that there are people who are capable of handling it. I don't know a lot of women outside of twelve steps that I could call and I could say, "I just did this, and I was feeling all these things," and this defect came up, and, and I think they'd be like, oh, I was a little fast. Nope, nope. But in 12-step, we have that space of, please, like, we recognize that in that honesty, in getting rid of those secrets, that propels us to move forward and to improve.

Yeah, and I have seen that again.

Justin B.: Thank you. I love that. And yes, it is such an It's a superpower. It's a secret superpower that we have in 12-step, that we have others that we can reach out to at any time, day or night, and say, I'm struggling, and they won't go, that's too much. I can't do that. See ya. Good luck with that. And it's a beautiful thing. Carolyn, is there anything else on Step 5 that you feel like needs to be hit on right now that we may not have covered yet?

Carolyn E.: I think the power of having God at your center can't be understated. Um, we only have the capacity to be as honest as we're currently able to be honest. And at the heart of Step 4 and Step 5 is that rigorous honesty. And when we put God at our center, at least in my experience, I have found that I have been capable of being more honest with myself. Yeah. than I have in the past. And I feel like that's allowed him to show his power through me.

Don't be afraid, I guess I want to say, of being honest, rigorously honest. I felt God's love more. I have felt love for myself more. I have felt the love of the group more and increased capacity to feel like I can be in intimate relationship with other people because I'm not holding those secrets. And yeah, put God at your center, dare to be rigorously honest. And the blessings come from that, the healing comes from—

Justin B.: Thank you for sharing that. And I think this, that, that phrase right there, dare to be rigorously honest, in regards to Step 5, in regards to Step 4, in regards to Step 1, 2, 3, all of them. All of it. Yeah, it's super powerful. And I think that's in, in many places, people will say Step 1 is honesty. I've got to admit to myself that I'm powerless over whatever it is. My life is unmanageable for me in all aspects of my life.

And I've got to practice Steps 2 and 3 and trusting God and turning that over to God in all areas of my life, not just in my addiction in the areas that I outwardly struggle in. A thought that came to my mind, Carolyn, as we've been talking is the title of the SAL book is Recovering Individuals, Healing Families. Talk to me a little bit about, if you're willing, what recovering individuals means to you, and what healing families looks like in your situation.

Carolyn E.: This really actually touches home a lot because It's something I feel like I've wanted so much control over is healing my family. As I began working 12-step and healing myself, I began to see how sick my family was, which I'd always tried to be controlling and fixing and, okay, let's do this, then everything will be great once we start doing whatever. But in that rigorous honesty of the 12-step program, And seeing myself, I could see how dysfunctional my family life was.

For me, healing myself, it's taking accountability for my own life, which was really hard for me to accept that I had responsibility for my own life, which maybe sounds crazy. That was a big part of my step 4 that I really had to wrestle with because I really felt like I had been the victim of this addiction. In a lot of ways, I was. And acknowledging that I have the power, I am accountable to myself for how I show up.

So to me, healing myself is all about accountability for my own life, not about my spouse's, not about my family's. I'd love for him to choose recovery, and he currently is, and that's a blessing, but a lot of women don't have that, and I see that they're still healing themselves. For me, healing my family is sharing my healing with them. When my husband moved back in, I felt so strongly that we needed to do family therapy.

We're both very avoiders. That's how we've raised our children. They are very emotionally avoidant. And I was like, let's find a space where we can Sort through some things, gain some tools. And I had my kids do their own personal therapy to try to talk through— it was 11 months that we were separated. That's a hard thing on a kid. And I wanted them to know that I was going to give them access to all the resources I had, that they had space to work through this.

And it was actually just recently that we did a family therapy session, and it became very clear. Hmm. But this was not working. And, and I again had to surrender control over that healing family. I can't force them to be honest with me. I can't force my kids to share what's coming up for them. All I can do is share my recovery. When I have things come up that I remember that I think oh, that was horrible how I handled that as a mom.

I go to my kids and I share that with them. This is how I wish I could be better. I'm so sorry that I didn't— I wasn't capable of more. And usually they say, I don't remember, Mom. But chances are it still affected them even if they don't remember. And me living in my recovery is all I can really Do. And then when they're ready, they can step into it. And hopefully we're creating a better space where moving forward we have a healthier dynamic.

But a lot of it is surrendering. My kids and I can't control how they work through their own experience in living with And that's something that's really powerful.

Justin B.: Just the other day I was listening to, it was another podcast, and the person that was talking said, uh, so often in the world today, I, as a parent, as a father, as a mother, as a whatever, can only be okay if my kids are okay. And that puts, and, and now I'm going to put SAL language in here. Yeah. That puts my kids as my center and not God as my center. Right? And you talked about, I have to surrender my children.

And that's a powerful, painful thing. And we don't know what that's going to look like. How do you practice trusting that God knows what that's going to look like and that things will work out okay in the end?

Carolyn E.: Currently, it looks like a lot of bad attempts. And then recognizing where I'm unmanageable, and it's working through that surrender process. I reach out to someone and I talk about all of the crazy things, how I showed up, like what my kid was doing that was making me crazy. Like, why can't they just brush their teeth? Come on. But it's not about that situation. It's about all of my fears of what this situation means for their future.

And so again, like that honesty part of it. Oh yeah. Like me working through this interaction with my kid that became so painful is me acknowledging that I'm afraid of the future they're going to have. I'm afraid of the people they're going to hurt. I'm afraid of them blaming us and never willing to take accountability for their own life, all those kinds of things. And then once I have that, then I have something to give to God.

I try to just be humble in that. And I think it's going through the process willingly. And then the more I go through that process willingly, the more it becomes real and actual versus just going through the motions. Because a lot of times it is just going through the motions. Okay, surrender. my son. And do I really surrender my son? Maybe not. But I'm going to say the words and hope that God can work in that, with as much willingness as I currently have, so the next time it happens, maybe I have a little bit more willingness.

Try to remember that I have good kids now, and I'm not trying to make them into good kids. I've tried to really become closer to my higher power in my relationship with Parenting, and it's a struggle, and it's currently a struggle. But because I have worked through part of the 12 steps, because I have these tools, I'm able to approach it in a much better way than just saying, oh my gosh, something happened with my kids and it's my fault and I have to fix it.

And that never works.

Justin B.: Oh man, Carolyn, thank you for letting me go a little bit off the beaten path on this. Because I think the things that you just shared over the last 10 minutes or so, while maybe not directly related to step 5, have been really helpful to me. And I think it'll be something that others will really learn from and be able to apply in their own lives. Thank you for that. Before we close up, I ask a couple of questions at the end of each of these to, I think, all of the people I've interviewed.

And that question is basically this: what Can you share with the newcomer who is just coming into the rooms of recovery for the first time, who's maybe just found out about addiction, how it affects their lives? What can you say to that person? And then what do you say to the old-timer who's been around a while?

Carolyn E.: Yeah, I know you asked these questions. I've been thinking about them. For the new person, one thing I didn't realize before I came to SAL was how Many resources there are for betrayed partners. We're so blessed to have an abundance of resources, and we are not able to tell you what you need. Wouldn't it be great for everyone who came in to say, you have to be here because this is where you have to be because it's the only way to do it?

And it's not. SAL 12-step is one of many resources there are. To find healing. So if you come in and you're like, this is crazy, please don't give up. There's lots of other resources. That being said, there is a power in 12-step that is not found in other places. And if and when you decide you're ready, we will be here and we will welcome you with open arms because we. have walked this path. And we see the power in it.

And then, to the person who's been around for a long time, I would say, there are new women coming, or new men who are coming, if you're on the side of addiction, or whichever side, that need you, that need your experience, that need the light that you have. I was recently in a meeting With Real Croshaw, who's the founder of SAI Fine, and she's living in Australia right now. And she made this comment: It's Tuesday afternoon, and then Tuesday comes.

And she just said it like, like more physically. Don't worry, the world doesn't end on Monday night. Like Tuesday happens. But then it was like actually Tuesday comes in recovery, and maybe you've already gotten to Tuesday, and you're like things are so amazing. People are still in Monday and they're struggling through Monday and we need that assurance. There are women and men who need that assurance that Tuesday comes. And so yeah, so come show up. People need you.

Justin B.: Beautiful. Carolyn, you really opened my eyes to some really cool things here with step 5, and I'm grateful that you were willing to sit down and have this conversation with me. It really helped me out a ton. Everybody keep coming back. It works when you work it. So work it. You are worth it.

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